ECdesigns

[realDHT]

BTW, there is an interesting topic about NOS (non-oversampling) dacs and their sound over at DIY audio. 

There are some guys with knowledge in signal processing etc, that try to understand more what is the reason for the "NOS sound", so they posted listening test files etc to try to learn more. Very interesting, although I don't know enough to understand all the details discussed.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/371931-makes-nos-sound.html

 

Sometimes ECD dacs get critique for having "soft bass", "lack of punch" and similar. There was someone in this thread proposing that would be because of no output stage, but someone was mentioning in the thread above that this is typical for NOS, and that character can be changed by upsampling in software.  

 

Personally I have no issue with the bass reproduction in the DA96.  

[opus101]

I'm a bit active on that thread as I design NOS DACs - 'soft bass' I would attribute to being a bit noisy in the lower frequencies. The noise could easily come from the power supply or it could be inherent in the DAC architecture itself.

[Vincent des Champs]

40 minutes ago, opus101 said:

I'm a bit active on that thread as I design NOS DACs - 'soft bass' I would attribute to being a bit noisy in the lower frequencies. The noise could easily come from the power supply or it could be inherent in the DAC architecture itself.

I must say, having used the PowerDAC for over a week now, the lower registers seem to be more present and better outlined in comparison with the DA96. Your claim regarding electronic noise seem to fit with the "source immunity" claim made by ECdesigns.

 

Can other people relate to this..?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

16 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

I must say, having used the PowerDAC for over a week now, the lower registers seem to be more present and better outlined in comparison with the DA96. Your claim regarding electronic noise seem to fit with the "source immunity" claim made by ECdesigns.

 

Can other people relate to this..?

 

You won't be surprised if I say that bass is not an issue with the PowerDAC 😅 so someone else should give their impressions

[Huubster]

20 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

I must say, having used the PowerDAC for over a week now, the lower registers seem to be more present and better outlined in comparison with the DA96. Your claim regarding electronic noise seem to fit with the "source immunity" claim made by ECdesigns.

 

Can other people relate to this..?

 

I'm not sure about the lower registers being more present. I even recently increased the volume of my subwoofer a tiny little bit. Could that be due to a better defined/tight low end maybe?

 

I personally have the feeling that I experience more low mids, creating that fuller sound I referred to earlier.

 

I never had any issues with the amount of low end by the way, also not with the Fractal Dac. 

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

1 minute ago, Huubster said:

Could that be due to a better defined/tight low end maybe

Thats what I am experiencing: my reference track for assessing fast/ defined bass is Rage Against The Machine - Killing In the Name (I presume you will use different tracks ;-D). PRaT is unparalleled imo. Anyways, let's give it a try in the coming listening session!

[Huubster]

On 6/20/2021 at 3:14 PM, hopkins said:

Following discussions here (and privately with some of you) on source immunity, I was curious to plug my UPL again and compare it to another source to check whether I had been wrong in my initial assessment. 

 

I setup the UPL again (had not used it in over a month). I compared it to the Tablet setup described previously, connected to the U192 which has the same output level as the UPL. I used the same electroTos cable in both cases. 

 

I mostly listened to the same track, "You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To" from the album "Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section". I know it well, it is, well recorded. I focused on how the individual instruments sounded, and the overall presentation. 

 

 

 

 

I first listened to a minute on the U192, then put the beginning of the song back on the UPL. I immediately told myself: "damn, this sounds better", and  thought "oh well, I'll have to go back to putting all my music in 001-999 folders...". Playing the song back again on the U192, I realized that the very beginning, before the saxophone comes in, sounds different from the rest of the song, so when you stop in the middle and start over, you always have a slightly different feeling of sound quality. Swapping again back and forth, and then listening to a few other songs confirmed that I cannot hear ANY differences between the two sources. 

 

Don't think an android tablet playing local files was ever competitive with the UPL. I had tried many times before and it never was. 

 

Perhaps the UPL is not the best source there is, after all? That can obviously not be ruled out. But in that case, the bar has been set pretty high! 

 

Maybe my system is limited, or I have hearing problems.

 

Looking forward to those listening reports! 

 

This weekend will be an interesting weekend Hopkins.

 

Bodiebill, Vincent and me will have a gathering here locally to do some listening at Bodiebill's place.

 

We are planning to use different sources and cables and then eloquently discuss and jointly verify our findings :)

 

In our preparations (big part of the fun already) many ideas on what to do are popping up. But we want to be careful in doing too much changes in one evening, we still want to enjoy the music too :)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

This weekend will be an interesting weekend Hopkins.

 

Bodiebill, Vincent and me will have a gathering here locally to do some listening at Bodiebill's place.

 

We are planning to use different sources and cables and then eloquently discuss and jointly verify our findings :)

 

In our preparations (big part of the fun already) many ideas on what to do are popping up. But we want to be careful in doing too much changes in one evening, we still want to enjoy the music too :)

 

Sounds great. Tests are not that much fun, so you are right, you will want to enjoy music too. Perhaps Bodiebill can even play some piano for you :)

[Vincent des Champs]

 

Just now, hopkins said:

Perhaps Bodiebill can even play some piano for you :)

Only if it has been recorded in minimal 24/192 and played back via the PowerDAC!

[realDHT]

1 hour ago, Vincent des Champs said:

I must say, having used the PowerDAC for over a week now, the lower registers seem to be more present and better outlined in comparison with the DA96. Your claim regarding electronic noise seem to fit with the "source immunity" claim made by ECdesigns.

 

Can other people relate to this..?

Seems to make sense. Several times I have also read that low jitter is important for percieved bass depth and definition. It is also possible that ECD improved (the already good) jitter levels of the DA96 with the new clocking system. I'm now running the U192/DA96 with very low jitter clocks by Andrea Mori but can't say for sure yet how it has affected the sound until I set up a listening comparison with Rowli and his unmodified UPL/DA96 combination. 

 

[mevdinc]

55 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

Thats what I am experiencing: my reference track for assessing fast/ defined bass is Rage Against The Machine - Killing In the Name (I presume you will use different tracks ;-D). PRaT is unparalleled imo. Anyways, let's give it a try in the coming listening session!

In my personal experience, whenever my system improved in terms of noise it was always the lower registers that benefitted the most. The bass was tighter, cleaner and lower, which in turn meant turning the volume up!
For example, I experienced this when I used battery power with my old Antilop Zodiac Gold DAC.

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, realDHT said:

Sometimes ECD dacs get critique for having "soft bass", "lack of punch" and similar.

 

Definitely not true for the Fractal DAC in my system. Must be because of some other issue in the quoted systems..

[tapatrick]

26 minutes ago, realDHT said:

Seems to make sense. Several times I have also read that low jitter is important for percieved bass depth and definition. It is also possible that ECD improved (the already good) jitter levels of the DA96 with the new clocking system. I'm now running the U192/DA96 with very low jitter clocks by Andrea Mori but can't say for sure yet how it has affected the sound until I set up a listening comparison with Rowli and his unmodified UPL/DA96 combination. 

 

Nice, did you replace both the 22 and 24Mhz clocks?

[Vincent des Champs]

1 minute ago, tapatrick said:

Definitely not true for the Fractal DAC in my system. Must be because of some other issue in the quoted systems..

As always, the complete setup/chain is responsible for your end result. I.e. my Hegel H590 is fast as water and my speakers are of that kind that can keep up with this pace. Also they happen to be quite bass heavy (typical paper cones that are used) and tango really great with the characteristics of the PD.

[realDHT]

8 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Nice, did you replace both the 22 and 24Mhz clocks?

 

Yep. Also plan to replace the third one, 24.0 USB/XMOS clock as well, but that one i'm sceptic if it will make any difference.

 

  

[bodiebill]

22 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Sounds great. Tests are not that much fun, so you are right, you will want to enjoy music too. Perhaps Bodiebill can even play some piano for you :)

 

They would be bored I am sure. Rather we will do a few -- but, mind you, certainly not all! -- of the following comparisons:

• optical cables -- I never paid attention, do they make a difference?
• PD power supply -- stock vs Paul Hynes SR4T vs 6V LPSU + 5V LT3045
• sources -- RPi, SOtM, Lindemann, SDTrans384 (see source immunity discussion)
• Mutec reclocker in the chain yes or no (see source immunity discussion)
• interlinks ad lib -- we would have to place the active speakers close together
• Buchardt speakers with and without REL subs -- OT comparsion allowed for the sake of the host 😊

@Vincent des Champs

@Huubster

anything else?

 

Of course we will share results on this thread.

[Vincent des Champs]

12 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

sources -- RPi, SOtM, Lindemann, SDTrans384 (see source immunity discussion)

Will be Rpi incl. HifiBerry HAT (digi2 pro edition), Lindemann Limetree Bridge 2

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I mentioned the DAC comparisons I had made. There were 2: one against an Audiomat Tempo 2.8, which is a 3000€ DAC, and one against a Denafrips Terminator, both at friends' houses. In the first case, both the PowerDAC and Audiomat were fed by a Metrum Ambre streamer, running squeezelite, with no particular "optimizations" (no fancy switch, no fancy power supplies). The difference with the Audiomat were so glaring, that both my friend and I thought maybe something was wrong with it (however, he had it on loan and had been using it for a couple weeks in his system). The level of resolution of the Audiomat was clearly inferior, as well as the soundstage. In the second case (Terminator), it was fed by an SOTM (last generation) which had a seperate clock, Paul Hynes power supplies, etherRegen - the works ! We did not come to an agreement with my friends. We all agreed that the PowerDAC was more involving, but my friends thought it had more detailed, something I disagreed with. We are still friends :)

[Vincent des Champs]

35 minutes ago, hopkins said:

but my friends thought it had more detailed

You mean the Denafrips I suppose?

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, Vincent des Champs said:

You mean the Denafrips I suppose?

 

Thanks for sharing!

Yes. Will try some other DACs if the opportunity comes along. Selfishly, I am more interested in improving my system, amplification and speakers... 

[Huubster]

6 hours ago, bodiebill said:

 

They would be bored I am sure. Rather we will do a few -- but, mind you, certainly not all! -- of the following comparisons:

• optical cables -- I never paid attention, do they make a difference?
• PD power supply -- stock vs Paul Hynes SR4T vs 6V LPSU + 5V LT3045
• sources -- RPi, SOtM, Lindemann, SDTrans384 (see source immunity discussion)
• Mutec reclocker in the chain yes or no (see source immunity discussion)
• interlinks ad lib -- we would have to place the active speakers close together
• Buchardt speakers with and without REL subs -- OT comparsion allowed for the sake of the host 😊

@Vincent des Champs

@Huubster

anything else?

 

Of course we will share results on this thread.

 

I was planning to come with my bike @bodiebill, but it would be stupid not to take my Innuos and Paul Hynes LPS right..? How often do we get the chance to compare such a wide array of resources.. :)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, hopkins said:

. We all agreed that the PowerDAC was more involving, but my friends thought it had more detailed. 

This should have read: "We all agreed that the PowerDAC was more involving, but my friends thought the Terminator had more detail" 

To clarify, my friend thought the Terminator presented more clearly the different instruments, but that the PowerDAC's overall presentation was more pleasant/analog like. I guess it would be a case of being more than the sum of its parts? As I said, I did not feel there was anything lacking, but we are all entitled to our opinions. 

[bodiebill]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

This should have read: "We all agreed that the PowerDAC was more involving, but my friends thought the Terminator had more detail" 

To clarify, my friend thought the Terminator presented more clearly the different instruments, but that the PowerDAC's overall presentation was more pleasant/analog like. I guess it would be a case of being more than the sum of its parts? 

 

I agree that the Terminator is more detailed in one sense of the word. I described it as holographic, almost in a way that is intimidating and (sometimes too?) overwhelming. This can make it harder to follow the gist of the music, say the musical version of "cannot see the wood for the trees". To make a long story short: I just sold my Terminator II after receiving the Power DAC. Mind you, I loved the Terminator but I also have the Musician Pegasus (much cheaper and smaller but the same architectural design, actually made by the same factory that buids Denafrips DACs). I find that the Pegasus has the same sound character as the Terminator but is a bit more coherent and involving, of course at the expense of some micro detail. This suits me well. All very personal of course...

 

And I can hook up the SDTrans384 to the Pegasus with I2S/HDMI. But currently I listen to my SDTrans with the Power DAC, with the Mutec reclocker (using a BNC cable) as an intermediary. Such luxury!

 

Funny, I put up two ads last week, one for the Terminator and one for the old ECD set. The former got much interest from all over Europe and was sold in a day. The latter resulted in only two lukewarm messages. People do not know what they are missing!

[Vincent des Champs]

8 hours ago, bodiebill said:

People do not know what they are missing!

People that are not familiar with ECd (large numbers - the whole world except us in the fora I would say 😉) and are curious (small numbers) will look for reviews and find none. Terminator DACs have been reviewed everywhere. But that’s the paradox with ECd: we want people to experience the DAC’s quality and try to convince them, but one the other hand, isn’t that the charm of being one of the happy few that can enjoy the ‘aurora borealis’ of sound (although the PD is not the one that beats ‘em all’)? Convincing can only be done by offering a one-on-one demo preferable in their personal setup. And that’s what the PD can do easily given it’s portability and the rbpi (for instance) as source. My neighbor is thinking to replace his newly purchased Linn Klimax DS (costing a lot) for this odd looking DIY device named the PowerDAC... In the meantime I think we have to acquiesce and simply enjoy.

 

Happy listening today!
 

[Varinder]

8 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

People that are not familiar with ECd (large numbers - the whole world except us in the fora I would say 😉) and are curious (small numbers) will look for reviews and find none. Terminator DACs have been reviewed everywhere. But that’s the paradox with ECd: we want people to experience the DAC’s quality and try to convince them, but one the other hand, isn’t that the charm of being one of the happy few that can enjoy the ‘aurora borealis’ of sound (although the PD is not the one that beats ‘em all’)? Convincing can only be done by offering a one-on-one demo preferable in their personal setup. And that’s what the PD can do easily given it’s portability and the rbpi (for instance) as source. My neighbor is thinking to replace his newly purchased Linn Klimax DS (costing a lot) for this odd looking DIY device named the PowerDAC... In the meantime I think we have to acquiesce and simply enjoy.

 

Happy listening today!
What are the other dacs you have tried which you think beats PD