ECdesigns

[szczemirek]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:54 AM, Huubster said:

 

Do you mind me asking why?

 

Price (which I can fully understand by the way) or something else?

 

I'm happy owner of DA96ETF with U192ETL.

1. ECdesigns are niche products nearly not resalable on second hand market.

2. I have no any chance for listening DAC before buy.

3. No any professional and objective reviews about new DAC. Sorry @hopkins but for me you are lover not objective listener.

4. Price: all together DAC with IRC and UT96 nearly 1.500EUR plus delivery and TAX.

All the best.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

11 minutes ago, szczemirek said:

Sorry @hopkins but for me you are lover not objective listener

 

I don't hide my enthusiasm but I also have had others make comparisons with other DACs, as, I always do. Maybe I should have detailed them here, and you would have been happier (or not...). 

[Huubster]

6 minutes ago, szczemirek said:

 

I'm happy owner of DA96ETF with U192ETL.

1. ECdesigns are niche products nearly not resalable on second hand market.

2. I have no any chance for listening DAC before buy.

3. No any professional and objective reviews about new DAC. Sorry @hopkins but for me you are lover not objective listener.

4. Price: all together DAC with IRC and UT96 nearly 1.500EUR plus delivery and TAX.

All the best.

Thanks! Most points I can relate to.

 

Yes, it's niche. Listening is a PITA, though I'm sure you are allowed to return if you're not happy with it. Price, yes, it's expensive.

 

But hey, if you believe in 'professional' and 'objective' in one sentence when it comes to audio.. Sorry, but that is nonsense. :)

[szczemirek]

1 minute ago, Huubster said:

But hey, if you believe in 'professional' and 'objective' in one sentence when it comes to audio.. Sorry, but that is nonsense. :)

 

+++ I'm a dreamer ;)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

P. S. I never said this is a DAC to beat all others. I do think it is significantly better than the DA96, explained why, and I have been happy to "retire" my UPL. That's about it! 

[Varinder]

6 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I don't hide my enthusiasm but I also have had others make comparisons with other DACs, as, I always do. Maybe I should have detailed them here, and you would have been happier (or not...). 

Please post your impressions.. I already sold my DAC 96 and excited to hear from you guys as mine will take some time 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, Varinder said:

Please post your impressions.. I already sold my DAC 96 and excited to hear from you guys as mine will take some time 

I did. Will let others talk now😉

[Norton]

23 minutes ago, Huubster said:

Price, yes, it's expensive

While I’m hanging back this time, I don’t really think the R” is expensive. The equivalent from previous generation(s) would have involved buying DAC+ interface+volume control so not a huge amount in it really and still likely to best some much more expensive DACs.  

 

I can’t believe ECD are making much on it even at current prices and given the handcrafted, low volume nature of the endeavour, I don’t imagine that profit is the primary driver for them.  But if you’ve already bought into previous generations, making a c. €1400 investment once a year to keep up begins to get pricey, I don’t know what I could expect to  get  resale on my DAC96 or MOS16 sets.
 

 

[Huubster]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

P. S. I never said this is a DAC to beat all others. I do think it is significantly better than the DA96, explained why, and I have been happy to "retire" my UPL. That's about it! 

I can vouch for this! Maybe I will come with a more detailed review later on.. But my Fractal set is disconnected and is retired as of yesterday. Not that it's bad, on the contrary, but once you heard the PowerDAC, you will know why.

 

There is one thing I want to say about the DAC though. I tried the impact of source material on the DAC's performance, and I do think it's still important. I will do some more testing, to see if my mind is playing tricks with me, but I'm pretty pretty sure it's not source independent. 

[Varinder]

1 minute ago, Norton said:

While I’m hanging back this time, I don’t really think the R” is expensive. The equivalent from previous generation(s) would have involved buying DAC+ interface+volume control so not a huge amount in it really and still likely to best some much more expensive DACs.  

 

I can’t believe ECD are making much on it even at current prices.  But if you’ve already bought into previous generations, making a c. €1400 investment once a year to keep up begins to get pricey.
 

 

The previous DAC 96 easily outclassed DAC pricing 7-8 k … with the current power DAC one does not need any streamer , fancy LPS and I am sure it will be definitely better than DAC 96 and fr the price I don’t think you get any thing better .. Any other designer can easily sell it fr 10-15 k dollar and make mullah 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

I'll open mine up and take a few pictures (this weekend).

Looking forward to those! 

[Gavin1977]

13 hours ago, Huubster said:

I can vouch for this! Maybe I will come with a more detailed review later on.. But my Fractal set is disconnected and is retired as of yesterday. Not that it's bad, on the contrary, but once you heard the PowerDAC, you will know why.

 

There is one thing I want to say about the DAC though. I tried the impact of source material on the DAC's performance, and I do think it's still important. I will do some more testing, to see if my mind is playing tricks with me, but I'm pretty pretty sure it's not source independent. 

I agree, definitely not source independent… but highly immune.

 

For me I found the fractal DAC to be too neutral and also the lack of a dedicated output stage meant that bass was weak (Hi-fi advice.com also stated in an article outside their review of the mosaic that lack of drive from a traditional output stage is also one reason why they moved it on).  Does the PowerDAC improve on this?

 

Many classic preamp designs do large voltages - usually never fully used, but give an powerful and open sound.

[bodiebill]

I find the source immunity concept not straightforward.

In some way we want the DAC to reveal -- not hide -- the source.

 

I guess the source immunity we talk about here refers to (1) correction of time problems and (2) removal of electrical noise. If that is correct, I can imagine why we perceive reduced source dependence with the Power DAC. But there are other factors that we (at least I) do not know enough about that influence the sound. For instance the improvement that is still perceived (reported offline by huubster) when upgrading a power cable. If something is 'missing' in the source, don't we want the DAC to show that?

 

I am still using a Mutec reclocker (doubling as a usb-toslink converter) before my PD, but hope to be able to compare that with PD only soon.

 

 

[Huubster]

33 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

I find the source immunity concept not straightforward.

In some way we want the DAC to reveal -- not hide -- the source.

 

I guess the source immunity we talk about here refers to (1) correction of time problems and (2) removal of electrical noise. If that is correct, I can imagine why we perceive reduced source dependence with the Power DAC. But there are other factors that we (at least I) do not know enough about that influence the sound. For instance the improvement that is still perceived (reported offline by huubster) when upgrading a power cable. If something is 'missing' in the source, don't we want the DAC to show that?

 

I am still using a Mutec reclocker (doubling as a usb-toslink converter) before my PD, but hope to be able to compare that with PD only soon.

 

 

Nicely put @bodiebill. It's not a bad thing it's not fully source independent :) Like @Gavin1977said as well, highly immune is a better way of stating it. 

 

My experiment was indeed with DC and AC power cables, using the same source. Please note, below I describe my first impressions, I will do this test again, preferably blind with some friends over here. 

 

- First I changed my 'audiophile' DC power cable of my Paul Hynes LPS feeding my streamer to a standard DC cable, and I perceived a more strident sound to my ears. In no way unpleasant, but with my better cable the music just has more flow and a more natural fullness to it. Of the three changes as described here, this one had definitely the most impact. 

- After I re-connected the 'audiophile'  DC cable to the Paul Hynes (and some listening time again) I added another 'audiophile' cable in the mix. I exchanged the standard figure 8 power cable coming with the LPS of the PowerDAC. I already had one in use for the LPS of the Fractal DAC, so I just took that one. This change added more warmth to the sound, without impacting openness and detail at all. 

- Last change was also the USB powercable for the PowerDAC. Again, I had an 'audiophile' version in use on the Fractal DAC. It's a Y-cable, signal and power separated. Now I use only the USB power part from LPS to PowerDAC. This change had the least impact, and to be honest I have difficulty to describe the change. That is also in line with my experience with the Fractal DAC. 

 

Without those cables it already sounded very good, don't get me wrong, but 'better' cables still give that extra icing on the cake: A bit more body to the sound, more 'fullness' and better (longer) decay of notes. In the end a bit more musical, real and engaging. 

[Henley]

1 hour ago, Gavin1977 said:

I agree, definitely not source independent… but highly immune.

 

For me I found the fractal DAC to be too neutral and also the lack of a dedicated output stage meant that bass was weak (Hi-fi advice.com also stated in an article outside their review of the mosaic that lack of drive from a traditional output stage is also one reason why they moved it on).  Does the PowerDAC improve on this?

 

Many classic preamp designs do large voltages - usually never fully used, but give an powerful and open sound.

That’s exactly what I want to know as well. I own the Mosaic T and the only thing that is missing is the drive in the lower frequency. I have tested a lot of dac’s in my setup but everytime the Mosaic T is a keeper.  
 

The new design of the power dac is disappointing from an esthetic point of view as well as its single output and headphone connection. If I would buy this dac I would own a Mosaic T dac with a 3.5mm output which is not a headphone amp and a Powerdac which is a headphone amp without a 3.5mm output. How did that happen...

 

 

[seeteeyou]

40 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

For instance the improvement that is still perceived (reported offline by huubster) when upgrading a power cable.

 

What if we're comparing one completely off-the-grid source component (i.e. battery-powered such as a power bank etc.) to another, since we don't have to take care of ground loops at all?

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-can-digital-audio-cables-cause-ground-loops

Quote

ADAT and S/PDIF optical both use fibre‑optic cables, giving true galvanic isolation, just like a transformer, so they can never result in ground loops.

 

Though not sure if there were any differences once we try another power bank / DC power cable, while tweaking Linux / Windows etc. could also result in a significant difference.

 

And then there's also something about glass versus plastic Toslink cables.

 

---

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/powerdac-r

Quote

The DAPI board also reduces source influence considerably.

 

In the end they might have to keep working on the DAPI board with "even better" source immunity down the road? I was under the impression that such "immunity" would be more like a fairy tale of some sort, most likely it's just a matter of dangling something in front of us then?

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

35 minutes ago, Huubster said:

I will do this test again, preferably blind with some friends over here

 

Please do. Our minds can easily play games with us and there are many parameters to take into account. One thing I found, for example, is that it is good also to listen at length to one setup and then another, and let the system "settle in" each time. 

 

The powerDAC itself is a different beast than the DA96, and it takes a little bit of time to adjust to its sound.   These comparisons are not easy... Looking forward to more impressions from all of you 😀

[Huubster]

44 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Please do. Our minds can easily play games with us. One thing I found, for example, is that it is best not to compare tracks quickly but to listen at length to one setup and then another. 

Agreed, that's how I prefer it too. I'm not comparing tracks directly, I sit down and absorb the music to get the feeling of the sound and then change things to do the same again. 

 

Out of uncontrolled curiosity I did it with little time in between now. But I currently  have it set with my 'cabling of choice' and will do a change again sometime later, maybe this weekend.. Or maybe not.. I'm really enjoying the sound, I don't want to spoil the fun by comparing all the time. 

 

In the end I want to try other sources too. My Innuos streamer is known for it's very good USB output, I have my doubt about the optical implementation, it's a very simple and cheap solution, more of an 'afterthought'..

[Michael L]

17 hours ago, szczemirek said:

 

I'm happy owner of DA96ETF with U192ETL.

1. ECdesigns are niche products nearly not resalable on second hand market.

2. I have no any chance for listening DAC before buy.

3. No any professional and objective reviews about new DAC. Sorry @hopkins but for me you are lover not objective listener.

4. Price: all together DAC with IRC and UT96 nearly 1.500EUR plus delivery and TAX.

All the best.

Well I bought the MOS16 and UPL16 thinking I was set for life. 

[bodiebill]

19 hours ago, szczemirek said:

@hopkins but for me you are lover not objective listener.

 

Besides the fact that objective listeners may not exist at all, I still think this is a bold assumption from someone who has not even listened to the Power DAC. At least @hopkins has. And so far others concur with his praise.

Of course I am looking forward to some critical comments re the PD SQ, to put things in perspective...

[numlog]

With source immunity there can still be other factors that can influence sound over time, for example a warm-up or stabilisation phase. In these early days more rapid changes from break-in could be expected aswell.

 

If you hypothetically placed the DAC in close proximity to the source computer it wouldnt be surprising to hear influence from it nor would it be fair to say the DAC is not immune to the source. A thin layer of metal can only provide so much shielding.

Now move it 5 feet away, is source immunity guaranteed? where do you draw the line?

[uber2]

Dac is in place, great design!

[Varinder]

59 minutes ago, uber2 said:

Dac is in place, great design!

How are your impressions about this power DAC ., would love to hear this vs Previous DAC 96 if you have owned or heard that .,,

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, uber2 said:

Dac is in place, great design!

 

What are those very nice and cool looking speakers? Can you tell us more about your system? 

Thanks 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

22 hours ago, numlog said:

With source immunity there can still be other factors that can influence sound over time, for example a warm-up or stabilisation phase. In these early days more rapid changes from break-in could be expected aswell.

 

If you hypothetically placed the DAC in close proximity to the source computer it wouldnt be surprising to hear influence from it nor would it be fair to say the DAC is not immune to the source. A thin layer of metal can only provide so much shielding.

Now move it 5 feet away, is source immunity guaranteed? where do you draw the line?

 

Thanks for this important reminder. An additional point to keep in mind: ground loops.  When testing for "source immunity", it is important to have your source connected only to the PowerDAC through Toslink (no other outputs used/connected), and if you use a preamplifier, not to have other sources than the PowerDAC connected to another input of the preamp. This is how you should set things up, to play it safe. Whether after you want to use multiple sources, that's fine, but its good at least to start with a single source.