Roon Labs Software

[Dr Tone]

23 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

Well, the delay in large PCM tracks that segue went away but the DSF ticks did not.  The resync delay appears to be for rate changes and the ticks are between DSF tracks with the same rate.  Where was the buffer setting in your screen shot?  I have one in my DAC but it doesn't help.

 

I must have 6000 dsf tracks and don't get a tick between them.

 

Were these created with a buggy version of isotodsd or is this just a plain hardware issue?

[craighartley]

10 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

I must have 6000 dsf tracks and don't get a tick between them.

 

Were these created with a buggy version of isotodsd or is this just a plain hardware issue?

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

[ted_b]

1 minute ago, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

Neither do I (terabytes of DSD).  It all depends on the implementation of the dac.

[Darryl R]

24 minutes ago, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

 

Mine were faint on the Vivaldi with a USB player, but when I added the Network Bridge and Dual AES they became louder.  And the volume can vary on the same tracks.  For variations I'm now ripping to combined tracks.

 

Dr. Tone: these were ripped with the current version of sacd_extract.

[Dr Tone]

50 minutes ago, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

 

Perfect playback.  Obviously it's an issue with certain hardware.  I do DOP maybe it's more of an issue with direct DSD?

[craighartley]

2 hours ago, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

 

2 hours ago, ted_b said:

Neither do I (terabytes of DSD).  It all depends on the implementation of the dac.

 

Ted,

 

Surely it depends on much more than the implementation of the dac?

 

My understanding from Tom Caulfield (including his posts on this forum) is that the clicks are also often dependent on how the DSD master is sliced (whether .lbm text files exist or are available to the person doing the slicing, etc).

 

I also suspect some people are more susceptible to hearing the ticks, although that's not the point here. As it happens I have terabytes of DSD and consistently hear ticks, worse with some labels than others, on the ExaSound e22, the T&A DAC8 DSD, and the iFi Nano DSD. I hear them whether I play the DSD files straight or whether I upsample them in HQPlayer, and it is unaffected by whether the files are on a network, or a local hard disk, and whatever settings I use.

 

Craig

 

[ted_b]

Yes Craig, Tom and I discuss this all the time.  But at the end of the day, if your dac does not do proper DSD handling of dc offset (mute, etc) then you'll hear a click or maybe even a pop (usually a remnant of going to PCM first, whether from the last track or from a default resetting of the dac state)!  I've heard many in my life, ranging from none (current) to slight tick, to loud tick to pop to enormously troubling pop (which would shut down my earlier Modwright amplifiers).  With my Holo Spring, native DSD (not DoP), direct to dac (i.e no ethernet streaming, NAA, DLNA, etc) and upsampling to DSD512 I hear nothing, even at louder volumes (and my background is dark black).  I suppose a very faint tick might be there via ultra sensitive headphones but in my setup that would be a case of trying to find a problem where there isn't one.

[Darryl R]

54 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Yes Craig, Tom and I discuss this all the time.  But at the end of the day, if your dac does not do proper DSD handling of dc offset (mute, etc) then you'll hear a click or maybe even a pop (usually a remnant of going to PCM first, whether from the last track or from a default resetting of the dac state)!  I've heard many in my life, ranging from none (current) to slight tick, to loud tick to pop to enormously troubling pop (which would shut down my earlier Modwright amplifiers).  With my Holo Spring, native DSD (not DoP), direct to dac (i.e no ethernet streaming, NAA, DLNA, etc) and upsampling to DSD512 I hear nothing, even at louder volumes (and my background is dark black).  I suppose a very faint tick might be there via ultra sensitive headphones but in my setup that would be a case of trying to find a problem where there isn't one.

 

I know dCS were working on ticks between tracks with different rates (something I would rarely play), but to think they didn't get this right is discouraging.  I don't want to send the NBR back.  There is a buffering option in the VIvaldi to facilitate a mute between rate changes, but it doesn't help with DSF tracks of the same rate.

 

PS - I agree with Craig that it does become worse when you anticipate it.  And then occasionally one isn't there, where it was before.

[craighartley]

33 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Yes Craig, Tom and I discuss this all the time.  But at the end of the day, if your dac does not do proper DSD handling of dc offset (mute, etc) then you'll hear a click or maybe even a pop (usually a remnant of going to PCM first, whether from the last track or from a default resetting of the dac state)!  I've heard many in my life, ranging from none (current) to slight tick, to loud tick to pop to enormously troubling pop (which would shut down my earlier Modwright amplifiers).  With my Holo Spring, native DSD (not DoP), direct to dac (i.e no ethernet streaming, NAA, DLNA, etc) and upsampling to DSD512 I hear nothing, even at louder volumes (and my background is dark black).  I suppose a very faint tick might be there via ultra sensitive headphones but in my setup that would be a case of trying to find a problem where there isn't one.

 

Thanks Ted, that’s interesting. Actually it’s not a problem in my system either, in that although I’m still aware of the presence of the faint ticks they don’t bother me or disturb my listening in the way that they did when I first heard them ( I think psychological training to ignore tinnitus may have helped me with this!). I still choose to upsample everything to DSD512 cos it sounds best that way.  

[Darryl R]

Here's a thread where tailspn (Tom@nativedsd if I remember correctly) discussed a number of the variables involved in the slicing of DSD masters into files:

 

 

[austinpop]

On 12/16/2017 at 2:41 PM, Darryl R said:

Also, when Roon Control loads, it did a fine job, but it "thought" it knew better than the artwork I have in each folder, and was wrong in several instances.  Anyone know how to tell Roon not to be creative with the artwork?

 

No music management system is perfect. When I adopted Roon, I spent several hours after the initial import in "grooming" my collection. This can mean different things to different people. If you're fussy and anal-retentive about getting your music "perfect," then you have to put in some time. For me, that meant ensuring that Roon had:

1. correctly picked up every track in my library
2. correctly identified every album
3. correctly associated the right artwork.
4. For classical pieces, correctly associated groups of tracks that were movements under a single composition.

One thing you cannot do, is continue to navigate music using directory structure. Instead, you would hope that Roon would be able to - mostly - do 1-4 above, even in the absence of tags, by using your directory structure. It sounds like it was able to do so.

 

What I did at that point was go into each album that wasn't quite "right" and edit it into submission. For each property - take artwork, your example - Roon can use what's in the Roon database, in the file tags, or something else. Were all the artwork that it missed named "folder.jpg?"

 

Either way, it's a simple matter to override it to whatever you choose.

 

Point 4 is a bit trickier, but there is a way to correct that too, if you set your mind to it.

[Darryl R]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

No music management system is perfect. When I adopted Roon, I spent several hours after the initial import in "grooming" my collection. This can mean different things to different people. If you're fussy and anal-retentive about getting your music "perfect," then you have to put in some time. For me, that meant ensuring that Roon had:

1. correctly picked up every track in my library
2. correctly identified every album
3. correctly associated the right artwork.
4. For classical pieces, correctly associated groups of tracks that were movements under a single composition.

One thing you cannot do, is continue to navigate music using directory structure. Instead, you would hope that Roon would be able to - mostly - do 1-4 above, even in the absence of tags, by using your directory structure. It sounds like it was able to do so.

 

What I did at that point was go into each album that wasn't quite "right" and edit it into submission. For each property - take artwork, your example - Roon can use what's in the Roon database, in the file tags, or something else. Were all the artwork that it missed named "folder.jpg?"

 

Either way, it's a simple matter to override it to whatever you choose.

 

Point 4 is a bit trickier, but there is a way to correct that too, if you set your mind to it.

 

Later last night I found the library import settings that tell Roon to use the file artwork and titles.  Initially I saw some blogs asking for this, and they got their way.  All in all it did a very good job with my library.  My library is all classical, and I was very particular about the metadata for years, then this year I settled for the folders, file and artwork to tell me what I need.  The classical catalog is changing so frequently with new hi-res masters (esp. from Sony and DG/Emil Berliner Studios) that it was a welcome break to just enjoy the music.

 

Thanks for the kind help.  Much appreciated.

[jamesg11]

“edit it into submission” ... yes, nice phrasing there; evokes the steely-unblinking-stare of the late-at-night audiophile sorting-the-software ...

[firedog]

On 12/16/2017 at 11:19 PM, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

Neither do I. My understanding is that it is a driver issue. So it exists with some devices/drivers, not with others. 

[craighartley]

56 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

On 16/12/2017 at 9:19 PM, craighartley said:

 

Do you really get no ticks between DSD tracks that form part of a continuous work, like movements in a symphony? I thought they were pretty much inevitable, even if faint with sympathetic hardware.

Neither do I. My understanding is that it is a driver issue. So it exists with some devices/drivers, not with others. 

 

 

Okay, so is there anyone out there using Roon to HQPlayer to Windows NAA via Asio driver to T&A DAC8 DSD who doesn't hear faint ticks between DSD tracks in continuous works?

[eltee00]

Anyone using the EQ on Roon? There's always been a midrange glare/shoutiness to my room. Last night I decided to use the EQ to try to see if I can fix that and I dropped 6db around 1.5k and that took away that shoutiness now I have zero listening fatigue and that also really smoothed out the bass to midrange transition. My system had never sounded as natural.

[Dr Tone]

1 hour ago, eltee00 said:

Anyone using the EQ on Roon? There's always been a midrange glare/shoutiness to my room. Last night I decided to use the EQ to try to see if I can fix that and I dropped 6db around 1.5k and that took away that shoutiness now I have zero listening fatigue and that also really smoothed out the bass to midrange transition. My system had never sounded as natural.

 

Sounds like you should look into Room correction and Roon's application of it.

[austinpop]

Can anyone answer a quick question for me? 

 

What is the difference between the term "Roon Bridge" and "Roon Ready" package, as typically denoted in streamers and endpoints? They seem to be very similar in function.

 

Or is "Roon Ready" actually a certification label, and the software is really Roon Bridge?

 

Appreciate any insights.

[Dr Tone]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Or is "Roon Ready" actually a certification label, and the software is really Roon Bridge?

 

This.  Roon Bridge is endpoint software for Windows, macOS, Linux and specialized streamer hardware (usually Linux as well).  Roon Ready is a certification for tested hardware, the hardware could be a streamer that implements the aforementioned bridge or specific hardware like a DAC that has been tested and works fine with Roon.

[skatbelt]

Just updated Roon to version 1.4. Is it me or has the SQ improved by a few notches? With this version it is also possible to output directly and bit-perfect to iOS 11 devices. Nice!

[Dr Tone]

On 2017-12-20 at 6:12 PM, Dr Tone said:

 

This.  Roon Bridge is endpoint software for Windows, macOS, Linux and specialized streamer hardware (usually Linux as well).  Roon Ready is a certification for tested hardware, the hardware could be a streamer that implements the aforementioned bridge or specific hardware like a DAC that has been tested and works fine with Roon.

 

@austinpop I was incorrect in my statement.  "Roon Ready "is reserved for hardware that has a Roon Bridge built in it.  A tested non streaming DAC gets a certification of "Roon Tested".

[vortecjr]

47 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

@austinpop I was incorrect in my statement.  "Roon Ready "is reserved for hardware that has a Roon Bridge built in it.  A tested non streaming DAC gets a certification of "Roon Tested".

RoodReady is different code that is for OEM use. Being RoonReady means the hardware has gone through the certification process. 

[dannyroonlabs]

The Roon partner programs are described here: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_partner_programs

 

RoonBridge is an implementation of the RAAT SDK that partners get, but sits on the audio stacks of the operating systems it supports, and not embedded hardware.

[Miska]

On 12/19/2017 at 12:04 PM, craighartley said:

 

Okay, so is there anyone out there using Roon to HQPlayer to Windows NAA via Asio driver to T&A DAC8 DSD who doesn't hear faint ticks between DSD tracks in continuous works?

 

Do you mean mute relay clicks of the DAC? Are you clicking next-button to advance or are you letting tracks change naturally? If you click next button or source format changes, then Roon does stop-start cycle on HQPlayer which would cause DAC to engage mute relays between the transition. If you let tracks of same format naturally switch over to next, then there shouldn't be such cycle. It could be also in the source material, depending on track cut-off points, or something else...

 

With Roon 1.4, latest HQPlayer and latest NAA, things should be pretty smooth. And the T+A DAC8 DSD also handles muting nicely (so you only hear mechanical click of the relays).

[craighartley]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Do you mean mute relay clicks of the DAC? Are you clicking next-button to advance or are you letting tracks change naturally? If you click next button or source format changes, then Roon does stop-start cycle on HQPlayer which would cause DAC to engage mute relays between the transition. If you let tracks of same format naturally switch over to next, then there shouldn't be such cycle. It could be also in the source material, depending on track cut-off points, or something else...

 

With Roon 1.4, latest HQPlayer and latest NAA, things should be pretty smooth. And the T+A DAC8 DSD also handles muting nicely (so you only hear mechanical click of the relays).

I hear the clicks with same format continuously playing - ie no interference from me. My under standing is that it’s due to the editing of the source masters. And I have thousands of DSD tracks.  But I’m puzzled if others don’t hear it.