DSD: Explain it to me because I'm not getting it

[AudioDoctor]

Quick answer: Sure, heretics are sexy!

 

Slow answer: Of course you're converting everything, just in a DAC chip instead of a computer.

 

SO tell me Jud, what could I convert PCM to so that it doesn't get converted by the DAC Chip, and still plays in my device?

 

edit: I subscribe to the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Silly(Stupid in my case)

[Bill Lord]

As I see it, the current trend is to buy a dac that doesn't play your audio files. Instead you must buy a hot rod of a computer to convert your files into a format that this new dac can play. This is supposed to yield better results? How? At the end of the day aren't you just playing back what you started with?

 

What is DSD? Direct Stream Digital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TubeLover]

So many people exhort the merits of DSD, and yet, others that should clearly be able to speak from a position of expertise disdain it. The confusion is understandable.

 

JC

[TubeLover]

In any hobby that is in its infancy, with lots of new discovery and discussion, there may be no simple answers. Yes, there are ways to simplify ones audio signal path (like NAS to ethernet renderer to DAC, leaving all general use computers behind) but that doesn't mean there aren't options or others ways that folks have discovered may improve said path! Don't expect simple answers to questions like "what is the best way to..." cuz this is computer audio in its infancy, and lots and lots of options currently exist. There is no one best way (yet) . Doesn't mean you have to get caught up in them.

 

My advice for new folks: realize that there are many ways to skin the cat right now. Find your budget, buy a DAC and a music playback source (pc, renderer, Mac, etc) that you can afford, and then find the sweetspot of that DAC (sample or bit rate where it seems to play music best for your ears). Simply then upsample or downsample your music to that spot for now. Enjoy music, read a little more about options, but continue to enjoy music. Stop reading if it bothers you that there are other newer or better options out there that you can't afford (the time and/or the money). The "hot rod" comments come from hobbyists. If this is not a hobby you want to invest that much time in, then simply enjoy the music.

 

Don't condemn this site for not having easy answers. Some very easy and cost-effective answers are here (it's why, for example, I put the video tutorials together for using JRiver with hirez PCM and DSD). It's daunting at first blush, but only if you want to use all the bells and whistles. So do a little searching. Of course you'll find the folks that like to rip out the engine and put in a new one (sometimes that's me, even). It's a hobby site, too!

 

 

Very well said, Ted

 

 

JC

[bmoura]

So many people exhort the merits of DSD, and yet, others that should clearly be able to speak from a position of expertise disdain it. The confusion is understandable.

 

JC

 

That's why it makes sense to listen to DSD and come to your own conclusions.

[AudioDoctor]

That's why it makes sense to listen to DSD and come to your own conclusions.

 

I agree.

[mkrzych]

I have been watching the discussions over several forums about DSD for quite some time still using PCM D/A and looking at the DSD DAC availability with native DSD input (mostly it's USB) give me the conclusion that there are not so many with resonable price. I assumed that to avoid any in-between conversion from PCM->DSD and vice versa is pointless and to utilize the DSD stream to its full potential the native input is what tigers like the best right? Another thing is the content availability - not so bad, since DSD is not the rocket science and it's been on the market together with SACD players for many years, but how many recordings is done purely in 64fs versus lots of them which even available in DSD are sourced from PCM? If the latter, again conversion and loss of advantage I guess.

[bmoura]

I have been watching the discussions over several forums about DSD for quite some time still using PCM D/A and looking at the DSD DAC availability with native DSD input (mostly it's USB) give me the conclusion that there are not so many with resonable price.

 

Depends on what you consider to be a reasonable price. The iFi DSD products start at $189 and have native DSD features in Stereo up to DSD 256.

[mkrzych]

Depends on what you consider to be a reasonable price. The iFi DSD products start at $189 and have native DSD features in Stereo up to DSD 256.

 

Ok, one. Another is Matrix-X around 1k USD. The rest are pretty way above.

[mkrzych]

BTW, I suggest to read this article as well if you don't know it yet: Q&A with Thorsten Loesch of AMR/iFi | AudioStream Quite nice explanation what is going on most DAC black boxes.

[4est]

Schitt Loki, <$200.

Ok, one. Another is Matrix-X around 1k USD. The rest are pretty way above.

[mkrzych]

Schitt Loki, <$200.

 

I think it's ONLY DSD which could be a problem for someone.

[Jud]

I think it's ONLY DSD which could be a problem for someone.

 

Geek Out, ~$150 US, up to DSD128.

 

Sorry Krzysztof, I don't think the point about lack of affordable DSD DACs is valid these days. Less source material in DSD, yes, that I'll agree with. On the other hand, since the vast majority of even the DACs that don't take DSD input are converting to DSD internally anyway, having a DAC that accepts DSD input lets you do the conversion externally if you want, which may sound better to you than your DAC's internal conversion. (Or it may not sound better, or external conversion may be more fuss than you care for, or you may not want to pay for software to do the conversion externally. There are lots of valid reasons to decide either way.)

[mkrzych]

Geek Out, ~$150 US, up to DSD128.

 

Sorry Krzysztof, I don't think the point about lack of affordable DSD DACs is valid these days. Less source material in DSD, yes, that I'll agree with. On the other hand, since the vast majority of even the DACs that don't take DSD input are converting to DSD internally anyway, having a DAC that accepts DSD input lets you do the conversion externally if you want, which may sound better to you than your DAC's internal conversion. (Or it may not sound better, or external conversion may be more fuss than you care for, or you may not want to pay for software to do the conversion externally. There are lots of valid reasons to decide either way.)

 

Well, as always it depends. Lack of affordable maybe not, but lack of decent ones compared to the same price range for PCM with native DSD input looks to me more adequate. Maybe I am wrong, just saying that for me to buy DSD capable DAC with native input and good headphone amp is more and issue that the same for PCM - not saying about the content availability and the recording provenance.

[Jud]

SO tell me Jud, what could I convert PCM to so that it doesn't get converted by the DAC Chip, and still plays in my device?

 

edit: I subscribe to the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Silly(Stupid in my case)

 

If you're going through the Luxman, for no or minimum internal conversion, and maximum external conversion that you control, you would use an external player like HQPlayer (which I own and can discuss) or JRiver (which I don't own and therefore can't tell you about, but ted_b has written a guide, I believe) to convert PCM to DSD128, which you would then feed to the Luxman's USB input.

[audiventory]

Well, as always it depends. Lack of affordable maybe not, but lack of decent ones compared to the same price range for PCM with native DSD input looks to me more adequate. Maybe I am wrong, just saying that for me to buy DSD capable DAC with native input and good headphone amp is more and issue that the same for PCM - not saying about the content availability and the recording provenance.

 

Want we or not, but currently like to native PCM DACs will used only in wide band telecommunications and measurements, as more fast than DSD DACs.

[Hanuman22]

I guess I missed the memo that said I need to buy a hot rod computer and convert DSD into PCM or PCM to DSD to play it back on my DAC that plays both...

 

But I do see how someone could be confused by reading this site. No one gives simple answers here, this thread is proof. SO the takeaway from this is that no, you don't need to buy a hot rod of a computer to convert files into other files for playback on a DAC, unless you want to, then by all means, go ahead...

 

No memo, merely offering a reference point if someone is tinkering with cables in order to tweak their hi res playback.. enjoy the music!

[Daudio]

Ok, one. Another is Matrix-X around 1k USD. The rest are pretty way above.

 

Teac UD-501 $600 - $800

 

(highly regarded by some of my local audiophile friends)

[elcorso]

Teac UD-501 $600 - $800

 

(highly regarded by some of my local audiophile friends)

 

Great DAC with the nice price!

 

Roch

[Maldur]

Want we or not, but currently like to native PCM DACs will used only in wide band telecommunications and measurements, as more fast than DSD DACs.

 

What You means by "more fast"?

Native PCM DAC like PCM1704UK? Or something else?

[AudioDoctor]

If you're going through the Luxman, for no or minimum internal conversion, and maximum external conversion that you control, you would use an external player like HQPlayer (which I own and can discuss) or JRiver (which I don't own and therefore can't tell you about, but ted_b has written a guide, I believe) to convert PCM to DSD128, which you would then feed to the Luxman's USB input.

 

The DA-06 upsamples all 44.1 based PCM audio to 352.8 kHz and all 48 based PCM audio to 384 kHz through its 32 bit digital filter.

 

PCM audio through 32 bit / 384 kHz and DSD audio from 1 bit / 2.8224 MHz through 1 bit / 5.6448 MHz (DSD128) are all supported natively

 

I have never felt the need to upsample PCM to DSD to play it through the Luxman. Wouldn't that just create more computer noise when we are trying to reduce it as much as possible? Or are you saying I should upsample everything to DSD offline, and store it that way, and play it back that way?

[EuroDriver]

 

I have never felt the need to upsample PCM to DSD to play it through the Luxman. Wouldn't that just create more computer noise when we are trying to reduce it as much as possible? Or are you saying I should upsample everything to DSD offline, and store it that way, and play it back that way?

 

The job that HQ Player does to filter PCM, ameliorating some of the original A/D artifacts created during the recording process, interpolate new samples, use 7th order modulation to create a DSD stream, leaves the vast majority of PCM DAC's way behind. A quad core i7 or Xeon has several times the computational capacity of the fanciest DAC, and do you really want to do all of this computation inches away from the DAC chip ?

[Miska]

The DA-06 upsamples all 44.1 based PCM audio to 352.8 kHz and all 48 based PCM audio to 384 kHz through its 32 bit digital filter.

 

PCM audio through 32 bit / 384 kHz and DSD audio from 1 bit / 2.8224 MHz through 1 bit / 5.6448 MHz (DSD128) are all supported natively

 

I have never felt the need to upsample PCM to DSD to play it through the Luxman. Wouldn't that just create more computer noise when we are trying to reduce it as much as possible? Or are you saying I should upsample everything to DSD offline, and store it that way, and play it back that way?

 

On a computer you can upsample with 64-bit filter and to much higher rates.

 

Have you considered how much digital noise that built-in upsampling generates? It is much closer to the sensitive parts than a computer is.

[Jud]

The DA-06 upsamples all 44.1 based PCM audio to 352.8 kHz and all 48 based PCM audio to 384 kHz through its 32 bit digital filter.

 

PCM audio through 32 bit / 384 kHz and DSD audio from 1 bit / 2.8224 MHz through 1 bit / 5.6448 MHz (DSD128) are all supported natively

 

The first sentence describes the 8x "oversampling" step in a typical delta-sigma DAC. However, the second sentence, taken from Chris C's review (and perhaps Luxman's marketing?) is a little misleading. PCM, after the oversampling step, is sent through the Luxman chip's delta-sigma modulator (see block diagram on page 7 for the PCM1792A chip here: http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?genericPartNumber=pcm1792a&fileType=pdf). So for all PCM, you have the alternative of using the chip's inboard delta-sigma modulator, or the player's delta-sigma modulator algorithm running on a PC. In other words, you don't avoid this conversion step by playing PCM through the DAC.

 

I have never felt the need to upsample PCM to DSD to play it through the Luxman. Wouldn't that just create more computer noise when we are trying to reduce it as much as possible? Or are you saying I should upsample everything to DSD offline, and store it that way, and play it back that way?

 

As Miska points out, there's noise in the computer, or there's noise in the DAC chip in there among the DAC's analog parts. And besides having the noise further removed from the innards of the DAC, there is whatever audible difference may be created by use of Miska's delta-sigma modulator algorithms running in a PC, versus the delta-sigma algorithm running in the DAC chip.

 

As for offline upsampling: I actually do that (offline conversion with Audiophile Inventory software, playback with Audirvana Plus), but of course this involves time to do the conversions (it can take a few minutes) and space to store them, so if you're looking for simple, quick and carefree it is likely not for you.

[jabbr]

SO tell me Jud, what could I convert PCM to so that it doesn't get converted by the DAC Chip, and still plays in my device?

 

edit: I subscribe to the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Silly(Stupid in my case)

 

Not Jud, but the answer depends on your DAC of course.

 

If you have a ladder DAC for example this is native PCM. Most DACs aren't and do their own SDM -- if you feed them DSD this hopefully bypasses the DAC SDM.