Neil young announces the launch of ponomusic

[Audio_ELF]

Here's the way I look at it. Pono is a yet-to-be-fully defined product that we're intensely interested in, and most of us hope to see it done right.

I think that describes most people who have posted here ... but some of us see the flaws and hope by speaking about them now the flaws may be corrected (if they exist) before the product is launched and written off because of such flaws.

 

Eloise

[esldude]

Fictional press release:

 

Pono is not just another music download service. It is an entire musical eco-system. We have artists and companies willing to make high resolution master tapes available for your pleasure. These files will download and play on the Pono player as the artist will know you will hear it the way it was intended in hi-res lossless unmolested form. You will be happy for this because of the involvement of Ayre in making the Pono player. In addition the wonderful Pono player will play other musical formats that you may already have. So your Pono player can be your gateway to music you already own and the Pono approved versions that get you closer to the artist themselves. Just choose Pono, the righteous music solution.

 

 

OR

 

 

Pono music is mastered like no other. The music will be what the artist recorded as they wished you to hear it. You don't have to use the Pono player, but once you hear the result of Ayre's design in making the Pono player you will want to use it. Pono music will be DRM free, and Pono player will play not only Pono music, but any of the normal DRM free formats available.

 

Now ignoring I am no ad copy pro, was that really so hard? We would know either the Player plays other music, and I am not limited to only Pono sourced music. But Pono music only plays on the approved player. Or that it plays other music and the Pono files will play on other devices. I'll give the guys a break on the other thing we wish to know which is the price.

 

With the info released so far there is a 3rd possibility. Pono plays only Pono files. And Pono files are some new file format. It might still be DRM free, but currently there is only one hardware player available (though it is not available yet either). With the possibility if the format and market for it take off other players might be made by other companies in the future.

 

The above fictional releases hardly amount to white papers. Yet they tell us the key things people so much wish to know about any new music offering. There still might be some mystery, and possibly the press releases were just bungled in this respect. It isn't not like such has not happened many times before even with large companies.

[beetlemania]

Here's the way I look at it. Pono is a yet-to-be-fully defined product that we're intensely interested in, and most of us hope to see it done right.

 

I totally agree with how Neil Young describes the motivation for this. It's totally about the music listening experience. And if there's really no DRM, and the PONO device turns out to be a high res digital music player built by Ayre for $399, then I'm in. Just think about it: a $399 transportable music player by Ayre!

 

I'm not put off by the kickstarter approach -- this has brought a lot of terrific art and technology products into existence. So yeah there are still things that can go wrong, but no question for me that this is a horse worth betting on. I have March 15th marked on my calendar.

 

Thanks for sharing this perspective.

 

That Ayre is involved tells me that the player will sonically stomp the iPod and other such devices. Also, some of you may recall the Ayre QB-9 DSD upgrade thread from last year was derailed into a DSD flame-fest. Charles Hansen made it clear that his main reservation re: DSD was that yet another format (and resulting split in the audiophile community) would reduce the probability that hi-res files (which we all want) would ever become main-stream (or, at least, more widespread). So, his involvement here leaves me hopeful that the Pono files will be compatible with more than the Pono player. We should know more as early as this evening, certainly by week's end.

 

It's also telling that Chris, just a few months ago, tweeted that Pono was DOA because of DRM. It seems there has been a considerable shift.

 

Meanwhile, it's pretty cool that Neil Young is advocating for better sound. And if he has the labels and Springsteen/Sting/Elton John on board, than all the better. These are all positives, yes?

[Audio_ELF]

Bullseye hit!

Fictional press release:

 

Pono is not just another music download service. It is an entire musical eco-system. We have artists and companies willing to make high resolution master tapes available for your pleasure. These files will download and play on the Pono player as the artist will know you will hear it the way it was intended in hi-res lossless unmolested form. You will be happy for this because of the involvement of Ayre in making the Pono player. In addition the wonderful Pono player will play other musical formats that you may already have. So your Pono player can be your gateway to music you already own and the Pono approved versions that get you closer to the artist themselves. Just choose Pono, the righteous music solution.

 

 

OR

 

 

Pono music is mastered like no other. The music will be what the artist recorded as they wished you to hear it. You don't have to use the Pono player, but once you hear the result of Ayre's design in making the Pono player you will want to use it. Pono music will be DRM free, and Pono player will play not only Pono music, but any of the normal DRM free formats available.

 

Now ignoring I am no ad copy pro, was that really so hard? We would know either the Player plays other music, and I am not limited to only Pono sourced music. But Pono music only plays on the approved player. Or that it plays other music and the Pono files will play on other devices. I'll give the guys a break on the other thing we wish to know which is the price.

 

With the info released so far there is a 3rd possibility. Pono plays only Pono files. And Pono files are some new file format. It might still be DRM free, but currently there is only one hardware player available (though it is not available yet either). With the possibility if the format and market for it take off other players might be made by other companies in the future.

 

The above fictional releases hardly amount to white papers. Yet they tell us the key things people so much wish to know about any new music offering. There still might be some mystery, and possibly the press releases were just bungled in this respect. It isn't not like such has not happened many times before even with large companies.

[Skeptic]

Many companies have released "DACs, HDD players, and portable players" lately. I'm talking about high resolution downloads being accessible to the mass market. Sony releasing DSD isn't going to get the mass market excited.

Sony are making a big push for "high res audio" this year, with a full product line including a new Walkman, High Res headphones, USB DACs, HDD Players, Amplifiers, and Speakers.

 

Sony have their own music service, and obviously their own label too.

I don't think that should be dismissed out of hand.

 

Neil Young is kickstarting a portable music player (not selling a product) and launching a website to sell music.

The fact that Neil Young is behind Pono is huge. Look what big names have done for headphones. NO way would I have guessed $200-$300 headphones would be the norm for mass market stores. Yet, they are.

The "big names" which have been popular with headphones have been targeting the teen or young adult crowd.

They are not sold based on audio quality, they are fashion accessories.

They have a reputation for sounding amazing (yes, really) because prior to that, most people with them just used the stock Apple Earbuds.

 

They do well as a product, because headphones are now accessories for your phone, which is always on your person.

Headphones were not such a big market prior to that, because a separate device for music is not something people wanted to carry with them at all times.

 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how old do you think the target audience is for something Neil Young is endorsing?

He was big in the 70's, right? (correct me if I'm wrong - this was all long before my time)

 

Is that audience looking to buy a new "mp3 player"?

Are they the market that's buying headphones as fashion accessories?

 

 

I'm sure the device sounds wonderful, but is a single-purpose device made of plastic, with an unusual design that doesn't look like it would fit in a pocket (this is the main comment I've seen on other sites) going to replace a sleek multifunctional device like an iPhone?

 

I just don't see how it's bringing high res audio to the masses - at $400 this is not a mass-market device, and it's aimed at a niche market.

 

Now if this is also a portable DAC, rather than just being a 128GB music player, then I can certainly see a wider market appeal for it - still within the audiophile community, but now you're looking at a portable DAC with internal storage, than just a portable music player.

 

 

If it's only a player, then 128GB is not a lot of storage if you're going to be putting high res audio on there, and I've read a report on one site which says it's not 128GB, but rather 64GB with a 64GB SD card.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want the player and service to succeed. Competition is always a good thing, and if it does well, it will likely force Apple into the lossless/high-res download market, which will make it truly mass-market.

 

I will be there to buy music from the site on day one, and I will likely kickstart this too (it seems like a very good deal for the hardware inside the player) but I recognize that I'm not a part of the mass-market audience they claim to be going after, and even I have my doubts about it.

 

If nothing else, I'll probably end up buying a handful of Neil's albums on the 12th, as I haven't heard his music before, and from reading all of this, it seems like I probably should.

[labjr]

I will correct your statment that no one (or at least very few) have listended to PONO. Neil has demonstrated it to music industry executives and other artists (Bruce Springsteen, Sting, Elton John) - this is exactly what he and his team should do by building the base that can actually make it happen. The fact that you are not aware is irrelevant at this point.

 

I think this is great! I guess Neil owns the recordings and/or rights to his back catalog? I think Elton John does. Not Sure about Springsteen and Sting. Seems like it will be a problem when the artists don't own the rights to their music. Traditionally the music industry execs don't seem very open-minded. For example, ABKCO only allowing Rolling Stones catalog to be transcoded from DSD to PCM for release. Or remasters that turn out to be bogus upsampled stuff. I won't pay for stuff like that. Neil probably wouldn't sell it either. Thus, there may be a lot we'll never hear in true master quality. Hopefully, Neil is more successful than the previous efforts by others. I applaud his efforts and keep my fingers crossed that we get the good old days back again.

[sm31]

An account of a demo at SXSW, listening to tracks by Neil Young, Bob Dylan, and Metallica.

 

In summary: he likes the sound, doesn't like the device shape, and doesn't mention any technical details.

[bfalls]

My meaning (which I didn't make clear) is no-one who has posted here has heard the device.

 

I agree that showing / demonstrating it to other artists and those music executives who make the decisions about such things ... but that doesn't stop us being frustrated over the lack of information.

 

On the other hand ... if he is wanting to sell to the consumer market (who are buying Dr Dre and Skull Candy headphones) as I believe was the stated aim ... perhaps getting some modern artists on board might be a better idea. (Spoken tongue in cheek)

 

 

It depends in what manner you say it is irrelevant ... it IS relevant that I am unaware if you are criticising me for being skeptical about a project because there is no information available.

 

I will again also invite you to introduce yourself so that your comments can be judged on their merit - currently you are someone who (prior to this thread) posted 4 times; once regarding the Metric Halo LIO and twice regarding battery technology.

 

Eloise

 

Actually I posted that I heard the device and you questioned my integrity - so once again your response is inaccurate. I am a friend of Neils and work with him on other projects and I have been in possession of a PONO player since last fall. I talked with him prioir to posting anything and he agreed that it would be helpful to get a fundamental understanding of what he is trying to accomplish - I just didn't meet your protocal standards. I was trying to be helpful to both Neil and this forumn - obviously not a good use of my time in hindsite.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Sony are making a big push for "high res audio" this year, with a full product line including a new Walkman, High Res headphones, USB DACs, HDD Players, Amplifiers, and Speakers.

 

Sony have their own music service, and obviously their own label too.

I don't think that should be dismissed out of hand.

 

Neil Young is kickstarting a portable music player (not selling a product) and launching a website to sell music.

The "big names" which have been popular with headphones have been targeting the teen or young adult crowd.

They are not sold based on audio quality, they are fashion accessories.

They have a reputation for sounding amazing (yes, really) because prior to that, most people with them just used the stock Apple Earbuds.

 

They do well as a product, because headphones are now accessories for your phone, which is always on your person.

Headphones were not such a big market prior to that, because a separate device for music is not something people wanted to carry with them at all times.

 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how old do you think the target audience is for something Neil Young is endorsing?

He was big in the 70's, right? (correct me if I'm wrong - this was all long before my time)

 

Is that audience looking to buy a new "mp3 player"?

Are they the market that's buying headphones as fashion accessories?

 

 

I'm sure the device sounds wonderful, but is a single-purpose device made of plastic, with an unusual design that doesn't look like it would fit in a pocket (this is the main comment I've seen on other sites) going to replace a sleek multifunctional device like an iPhone?

 

I just don't see how it's bringing high res audio to the masses - at $400 this is not a mass-market device, and it's aimed at a niche market.

 

Now if this is also a portable DAC, rather than just being a 128GB music player, then I can certainly see a wider market appeal for it - still within the audiophile community, but now you're looking at a portable DAC with internal storage, than just a portable music player.

 

 

If it's only a player, then 128GB is not a lot of storage if you're going to be putting high res audio on there, and I've read a report on one site which says it's not 128GB, but rather 64GB with a 64GB SD card.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I want the player and service to succeed. Competition is always a good thing, and if it does well, it will likely force Apple into the lossless/high-res download market, which will make it truly mass-market.

 

I will be there to buy music from the site on day one, and I will likely kickstart this too (it seems like a very good deal for the hardware inside the player) but I recognize that I'm not a part of the mass-market audience they claim to be going after, and even I have my doubts about it.

 

If nothing else, I'll probably end up buying a handful of Neil's albums on the 12th, as I haven't heard his music before, and from reading all of this, it seems like I probably should.

Your comments are a bit short sighted. Wait for the videos to come out with other artists. Neil is the face right now ...

[The Computer Audiophile]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/pono-kickstarter-campaign-open-19730/

[esldude]

Actually I posted that I heard the device and you questioned my integrity - so once again your response is inaccurate. I am a friend of Neils and work with him on other projects and I have been in possession of a PONO player since last fall. I talked with him prioir to posting anything and he agreed that it would be helpful to get a fundamental understanding of what he is trying to accomplish - I just didn't meet your protocal standards. I was trying to be helpful to both Neil and this forumn - obviously not a good use of my time in hindsite.

 

This is a repeat bfalls, but no one questioned your integrity. Not knowing anything about you there were questions as to how you would come to have access to and listen to the Pono player. I don't believe anyone doubted you once you explained it.

 

I would think perhaps Audio_ELF did overlook you saying you heard it (though she can speak for herself). Her main point is all the people discussing how good it will be on faith as they haven't heard it. To my knowledge you are the only one posting that has heard it. So her comment would apply to everyone else.

 

And if you have contact with NY, let him know, we would like a little more detail about what Pono is. Heck we are excited by the possibilities. Listening to excited potential customers can be quite valuable. One good paragraph could answer most of the things we are wondering or complaining about without giving away anything important in too much detail. Otherwise it starts to look like hiding details you know won't go over too well when announced. It may not be, but it starts looking that way.

[midfi]

I'm also new to this forum and from Germany, and I don't even consider myself to be much of an audiophile, to be honest. But as an occasional reader of the discussions here and someone who does benefit from the knowledge of many people here, I thought it might bring some insight to post my (very subjective) outside view on this, as I am quite interested in the whole pono affair, although I wasn't aware of these plans for as long as most of you.

 

Again, I don't consider myself to be an audiophile. I do hear the flaws in the lossy formats when I really concentrate, but honestly, depending on the music and the listening situation, I don't care and I still buy lossy, because iTunes, for whatever criticism it may get and deserve, is convenient in so many ways.

 

Frankly, I don't hear the difference between a CD (or rip) and a Hi-Res digital file. I tried it. Even direct A-B-comparisons don't make any difference that is obvious to me. Might be my gear, which isn't too shabby, but far from anything a real audiophile might consider adequate. Maybe my DJ past is to blame as well. Not great for your ears.

 

The reason why I am still very interested in the whole pono affair is this: What I am capable of hearing quite well is bad mastering and the flaws of bad quality playback devices or headphones.

 

Player-wise, there are two things that are important to me. It has to sound good, of course (and from what I'm reading in this thread the DAC in it could potentially deliver) and it has to be able to power the headphones I use at home. The latter is crucial to me, because I use a Sennheiser HD 650 occasionally and a Beyerdynamic DT990 pro (250 Ohm) most of the time. Again, I'm not an audiophile, I just like how they sound, but driving them with mobile players alone is pretty damn hard. So far, I often use a lightly modded iPod 4th Gen and a penguin amp. Which isn't brilliant, but quite a lot less bulky than the laptop plus DAC combo I use otherwise.

 

Even the ipod/amp combo is still not compact and convenient enough for me, to be honest, and that's where the pono might come in. Yes, it seems to be quite awkwardly shaped, but still much better than an ipod with some weird wiring coming out of it and going into a headphone amp, strapped together with a rubber band.

 

As far as a ponomusic store is concerned, I am personally far more interested in the way the original masters are being treated before they reach the end customer. I could live with 44.1/16khz, but my hope is that when music is being remastered in a way that audiophiles can live with, I will at least be spared from massively overcompressed and brickwall-limited music. Such a store would have to be an acceptable user experience, though. I know it's probably a bit thick, but as a customer, I'd prefer not having to visit more than one or two digital music stores, and I really don't want to have to cope with cross-converting lossless formats. So far, if I want to go hi-res or at least lossless, I have to, and that's one of the reasons why I often stick to iTunes or rip my own CDs.

 

Very long story short, I would probably buy a 400 dollar pono player if it delivers what is being promised so far AND it's output is powerful enough for those slightly more demanding headphones. I'd buy hi-res music from a ponomusic store if the user experience is right, the prices are acceptable and there's more to buy than the Beatles, Led Zeppelin and Neil Young back catalogue.

 

I acknowledge that I am neither an average music customer nor an audiophile. I am somewhere in between. To my experience, there are a lot of in-betweeners out there, and I think they/we are quite a huge potential target audience for the whole pono affair.

 

As far as the kickstarter campaign is concerned, I'm somewhat tempted, but it's probably better to wait for more info on the device and the store.

[JD]

The biggest surprise for me with the latest press release from Pono was that Ayre is the technology provider not Meridian. Saw Chris' comments about the change in heart regarding DRM (good!) and started poking around Ayre's site and came across this, perhaps a hint of things to come... Article discusses the merits of DSD vs PCM and (modestly states the World’s First Valid Comparison of PCM versus DSD (now that should get 'em going...) Ayre Acoustics Design Thoughts I didn't have that background on DSD Disk...

 

 

As noted earlier, Neil has not only has the ability to get "artists' " attention but record labels attention as well. As well meaning as David Chesky may or may not be, Neil's ability to get a Steve Jobs, a Meridian, an Ayre, SXSW and all the associated content providers attention is the real game changer here. Certainly not a perfect process but I'm very intrigued...

 

Hoping I don't have to buy 461 Ocean Boulevard for the sixth time... ;-)

[midfi]

Oh, and BTW, Kickstarter-Page with some more info is now live:

[Skeptic]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/pono-kickstarter-campaign-open-19730/

Well that's good - we have some solid details on what the product & service is, and is not.

 

• "PonoMusic" files are 24-bit/192kHz PCM
  
• It supports all the common PCM formats, no DSD.
  
• The player is not 128GB - it's 64GB with a 64GB MicroSD card already installed, and 64GB being the maximum supported card size.
  ◦ Based on the 24/192 tracks I currently own, that looks like it will hold about 70 albums with lossless compression. (ALAC)
  
• From what they have shown, it looks like they are targeting $17.98 for the average price of an album.
  ◦ Rather than mass-market pricing to compete with iTunes, they're still going to charge a premium for them.
  
• They will be selling individual tracks, not just albums.
  ◦ With all the talk about the artist taking back control over their music etc, I did not expect that.
  
• It's a portable player, it cannot be used as a DAC.
  ◦ A shame when you consider the audio hardware inside.
  
• It doesn't have to be plastic if you don't mind someone's signature on the side.
  ◦ I suppose Neil Young is the obvious choice?
  
• 8 hours of playback from a single charge.
  ◦ An iPod will do 40.
  
• Won't be shipping until October 2014.
  ◦ Looks like the store won't be open until then either?
  

[labjr]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/pono-kickstarter-campaign-open-19730/

 

I think this is going to do well. Assuming they're 192 kHz sample rate and fresh Niel approved remasters, $17.98 is a good price for albums. Now if they had high resolution holographic album covers with liner notes?

[beetlemania]

[*]It's a portable player, it cannot be used as a DAC.

◦ A shame when you consider the audio hardware inside.

 

From Ponmusic.com/#faq:

"The PonoPlayer has two output jacks: one is a normal mini-stereo headphone plug, and the output is specially designed for headphones or earbuds and is meant for personal listening; the second is a stereo mini-plug analog output and is specifically designed for listening on your home audio system, in your car, or as an input to your Sonos Connect, so you can share the PonoMusic experience with your friends and family. Keep in mind that your audio experience may vary depending on the capability of the audio system you use."

[Skeptic]

$17.98 is a good price for albums.

It's fine if you're used to paying for albums off HDtracks, but how is that going to attract attention from the mainstream who are happy to pay $9.99 for AAC files?

 

High res audio has no premium value to the mass market.

If you want to put the focus on audio quality, you need to remove the price barrier first.

 

From Ponmusic.com/#faq:

"The PonoPlayer has two output jacks: one is a normal mini-stereo headphone plug, and the output is specially designed for headphones or earbuds and is meant for personal listening; the second is a stereo mini-plug analog output and is specifically designed for listening on your home audio system, in your car, or as an input to your Sonos Connect, so you can share the PonoMusic experience with your friends and family. Keep in mind that your audio experience may vary depending on the capability of the audio system you use."

Yes, it has a headphone output and a line-out jack.

When I say "use it as a DAC" I mean being able to simply play audio through the device when it's connected to a computer via the USB connection, without the 128GB storage limitation.

 

Most of the high res players are starting to offer this feature now.

 

P.S. I think it's ironic that they are recommending playback using a Sonos system, considering it doesn't even do high res audio, and how are you ever going to have an audiophile experience in the car?

[maelob]

I would like to see 9.99$ for hi res albums.

[Audio_ELF]

Actually I posted that I heard the device and you questioned my integrity - so once again your response is inaccurate.

My original comment was "no one (or at least very few) has listened to a Pono Player"; you then commented that Neil had demonstrated to other musicians and to industry executives so I modified my statement to "no-one who has posted here has heard the device" my apologies for excluding you in the second statement.

 

I'm sorry if I have offended you by asking who "bfalls" is. All I mean is: are you a musician; an engineer; an electronics engineer? I'm just trying to put your comments in context but each time I ask you stonewall me.

 

Eloise

[firedog]

I think this is going to do well. Assuming they're 192 kHz sample rate and fresh Niel approved remasters, $17.98 is a good price for albums. Now if they had high resolution holographic album covers with liner notes?

 

From what's written, it sounds like they are going to be offering the same remasters as everyone else. "Offering the highest resolution available" for each album. Sounds like "whatever the labels offer us in Redbook or above"; haven't seen where they say they have any special SQ standards.

[Audio_ELF]

From what's written, it sounds like they are going to be offering the same remasters as everyone else. "Offering the highest resolution available" for each album. Sounds like "whatever the labels offer us in Redbook or above"; haven't seen where they say they have any special SQ standards.

From what's written on ponomusic.com "High Resolution" includes 16/44.1.

[beetlemania]

When I say "use it as a DAC" I mean being able to simply play audio through the device when it's connected to a computer via the USB connection, without the 128GB storage limitation.

 

Why assume it can't be used that way? It has to be connected to your PC to upload songs . . .

And if it's not a feature now, Chris says the Pono team is following this thread . . . it seems a simple feature to add before production starts.

 

I agree that lower pricing is desirable, especially if they want to appeal to the masses. CDs were horribly over-priced for years (CDs cost a fraction to manufacture compared to LPs yet the consumer paid twice as much!). And I'm perplexed that hi-res files (with no physical product, distribution chain, and brick and mortar stores) cost even more.

[Jud]

It's fine if you're used to paying for albums off HDtracks, but how is that going to attract attention from the mainstream who are happy to pay $9.99 for AAC files?

 

High res audio has no premium value to the mass market.

If you want to put the focus on audio quality, you need to remove the price barrier first.

 

 

I'd be very happy if the price were lower. That being said, the fact that the price will be within sniffing distance of the cost of a Redbook CD is encouraging. And let's see what the track pricing is.

 

With respect, someone for whom "high res audio has no premium value" probably isn't the initial Pono market. If they can gradually build market share to the point that content and players get cheaper, that would be a good thing.

[Jud]

I really loved the electric blue they showed, but didn't see it available at a discount. So I plunked for a black one.