Neil young announces the launch of ponomusic

[Hiro]

 

• Won't be shipping until October 2014.
  ◦ Looks like the store won't be open until then either?
  

 

Those who can't wait till October for the Pono store to open, may already buy hi-res FLAC files from a number of online music stores.

[Matias]

Goal reached

4,197

backers

$1,396,389

pledged of $800,000 goal

[sm31]

I think the criticisms are missing the point: this is the anti-iTunes.

 

The store is the primary product here, but with an end-to-end easy-to-use experience enhanced by desktop software and portable hardware.

 

That a lot of people here aren't interested in all of this is understandable. But it's not designed for you necessarily.

 

The question is whether the market they're imagining (not self-described audiophiles, probably young, etc.) is actually out there and willing to support the complete vision. On one hand, the early success of the KS campaign seems to suggest yes. OTOH, I'm still a little skeptical about two primary things: price and form factor (is it portable enough?).

 

I'm very surprised about how they keep changing things, and how their numbers are bogus. For example, the first press release said 1,000 to 2,000 albums; that's not something you mess up, it's a key element in the product.

 

Also, they're spouting about "30 times more data" than MP3 files, which is simply a lie. I've written more about that here:

 

Kirkville | What’s the Point of Pono? And Why Are Pono’s Numbers Bogus?

 

While a lot of people on this forum will find this an interesting product, many have mention the Fiio devices, which are cheaper, and which have a more pocket-compatible shape. I don't see much in the Pono that is better than what's out there. To me, it seems like the player is being floated just to see if it works, but the music store is the real product.

[firedog]

 

While a lot of people on this forum will find this an interesting product, many have mentioned the Fiio devices, which are cheaper, and which have a more pocket-compatible shape. I don't see much in the Pono that is better than what's out there. To me, it seems like the player is being floated just to see if it works, but the music store is the real product.

 

Well, let's wait to see how it sounds. From the description it has the potential for being very good. The UI and usability will also be important factors.

 

As far as other high-end players, they are more expensive, some considerably so. The Fiio X5 has a similar but even slightly better feature set as far as I can tell, but the reactions to it's build quality, user friendliness in operation, and sound have not been the most enthusiastic (I'm judging from what's been written, no personal experience with it).

[kirkmc]

It's fair to say that the shape is just plain odd. It looks like it was designed more to be used on a desktop than in the pocket.

 

This said, I'd say most everyone on this forum already has something that can play high-res files. My guess is a lot of people are buying the device - pledging on Kickstarter - because they want to support the concept, or because they're Neil Young fans. It's hard to imagine anything like this going mainstream, if only because it makes little sense to listen to high-res music on a portable device (unless it's connected to a stereo). If you're on the move, you're just wasting money; you won't hear the difference.

 

It's certainly not an "anti-iTunes." The whole "iPod killer" stuff is just journalistic hype. it's an attempt to take over a fragmented market, where there are many players. And from a business standpoint, as long as there are people willing to spend more for high-res files, that makes sense.

 

But I also can't forget how originally Pono was an audio file format; now it's just a player and a store. A few pages back in this thread the music was PCM; then it became FLAC, after the true specs came out. It had 128 GB storage; then it only has 64 and a 64 GB microSD card, after the specs came out. It started with a lot of misinformation - even before the press release - and it's hard to know what exactly is true.

[sm31]

It's certainly not an "anti-iTunes." The whole "iPod killer" stuff is just journalistic hype.

 

I did not suggest it actually will; I have no real idea, and am myself skeptical.

 

But all you need to do is look at the evidence ...

 

1) NY wasn't happy about the quality of sound coming out of iTunes, and approached Steve Jobs to fix that. That went nowhere.

 

2) iTunes + iOS devices provide an easy-to-use, integrated sytem that is exactly analogous to what Pono is putting in place: desktop app, tied into online store to buy and download music, and that syncs with a playback device.

 

... to reasonably come to the conclusion that they are trying to build what they couldn't convince Apple to modify their system to do: couple the integrated ease-of-use that Apple provides with dramatically better sound quality.

 

That's what I meant by "anti-iTunes." It may not be the best term, but I was hoping to focus on what they're actually trying to do, rather than criticizing them by some other benchmarks.

[kirkmc]

I did not suggest it actually will; I have no real idea, and am myself skeptical.

 

But all you need to do is look at the evidence ...

 

1) NY wasn't happy about the quality of sound coming out of iTunes, and approached Steve Jobs to fix that. That went nowhere.

 

2) iTunes + iOS devices provide an easy-to-use, integrated sytem that is exactly analogous to what Pono is putting in place: desktop app, tied into online store to buy and download music, and that syncs with a playback device.

 

... to reasonably come to the conclusion that they are trying to build what they couldn't convince Apple to modify their system to do: couple the integrated ease-of-use that Apple provides with dramatically better sound quality.

 

That's what I meant by "anti-iTunes." It may not be the best term, but I was hoping to focus on what they're actually trying to do, rather than criticizing them by some other benchmarks.

 

I feel bad for Neil Young that he was not able to get Steve Jobs to do what he wanted. :-) Let's also bear in mind that what Young originally planned was a new audio file format, which has vanished (rightly so; we don't need another one).

 

I'm not going to debate whether or not the music sounds better in high-res than iTunes, but I do agree that what made iTunes and the iPod so successful was the end-to-end system. However, the Pono doesn't look like it is designed to be a portable player, and anyone can already buy the music online and play it on a computer connected to a stereo.

 

I think the biggest variable here is how well the Pono software works. If it's well designed, then it's possible that it could take over the high-res market. But I'm more than skeptical about the player itself. But, as I said, I think the store is the real product, not the player. The player is being touted because Neil Young wants something to show people.

[lithium1085]

I think we should all show some patience and wait for the actual products. They might be the worst products ever or the best ones, but all judgments are premature at best and lets wait and watch. Hopefully, Chris can give us early reviews as well.

 

I for one am appreciative of the effort put in by Neil Young and the Pono team. I am quietly optimistic that this can help to change some fundamental problems with the current high resolution music environment.

[monteverdi]

Personally I am not interested in another player but in making better versions of music widely available. The projected pricing of pono music store makes it another niche market -Qobuz is cheaper. Downloads should be cheaper than CDs as they do not need any physical production and distribution plus the customer has to pay for storage and bandwidth.

One aspect in which Pono could have a significant impact would be much better mastering (and recordings). One has to wait for the first releases to see if Pono is delivering on that promise.

[kirkmc]

I think we should all show some patience and wait for the actual products. They might be the worst products ever or the best ones, but all judgments are premature at best and lets wait and watch. Hopefully, Chris can give us early reviews as well.

 

I think it's a big mistake to do the Kickstarter thing and have the product being nothing more than vaporware for more than six months.

[NOMBEDES]

I'm very surprised about how they keep changing things, and how their numbers are bogus. For example, the first press release said 1,000 to 2,000 albums; that's not something you mess up, it's a key element in the product.

 

Also, they're spouting about "30 times more data" than MP3 files, which is simply a lie. I've written more about that here:

 

Kirkville | What’s the Point of Pono? And Why Are Pono’s Numbers Bogus?

 

And I find the many mistakes they've made in presenting the product and its specs - which you can see reading through this thread - to be amateurish.

 

While a lot of people on this forum will find this an interesting product, many have mentioned the Fiio devices, which are cheaper, and which have a more pocket-compatible shape. I don't see much in the Pono that is better than what's out there. To me, it seems like the player is being floated just to see if it works, but the music store is the real product.

 

 

 

 

 

Dude, its Neil (F**'N) YOUNG!

[The Computer Audiophile]

But I also can't forget how originally Pono was an audio file format; now it's just a player and a store. A few pages back in this thread the music was PCM; then it became FLAC, after the true specs came out. It had 128 GB storage; then it only has 64 and a 64 GB microSD card, after the specs came out. It started with a lot of misinformation - even before the press release - and it's hard to know what exactly is true.

Hi Kirk - I'm a big fan of your articles about all things Apple audio. I think you're a bit off when it comes to Pono. Where is the real evidence Pono was a new file format? I know the phrase new file format has been thrown around but I really haven't seen evidence of this. It's more likely this phrase was used a a figure of speech to describe something new. You also may need to hit up the CA Academy to learn about PCM and FLAC. FLAC is a container for PCM files. Nobody releases plain PCM files. Pono is still both PCM and FLAC. 64 plus 64 is 128. This is much better than 128 internal because you can swap out half the library. Complaining about 64x2 rather than 128x1 is really stretching it Kirk.

 

The original press release came from the record label's nontechnical people. The update was competed by Pono people. Both had too much going on to prepare for SXSW to proof everything before the release. Big deal. In the grand scheme of things who cares.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I think it's a big mistake to do the Kickstarter thing and have the product being nothing more than vaporware for more than six months.

It has worked very well for many companies. Based on the success of the campaign in the first 24 hours I think Pono has made a great strategic move.

[beetlemania]

the Pono doesn't look like it is designed to be a portable player, and anyone can already buy the music online and play it on a computer connected to a stereo.

 

Wha . . .? Some people are saying that it won't be comfortable in a pocket because of its shape (which, apparently, was to allow for better parts and reduction of RFI) but I'm not sure how a battery-powered device that easily fits in your hand is not portable.

 

You're being quite the wet blanket here. I personally have minimal need for a portable player, so I'm not likely to buy the player (tho' if I was in the market, it would be at the top of the list - the Pono is likely to sonically crush all competitors). Nevertheless, I'm quite excited about this whole project. Pono has great potential to make 24-bit the standard for new album releases and we could well see a boatload of analog-recorded material released as 24/192. Just to get 16/44 downloads would be a vast improvement from what iTunes offers. Maybe mp3s will go the way of the 8-track. And I'm also hopeful that prices of hi-res files will come down. I think Pono is a terrific development. THANKS, NEIL YOUNG!

[labjr]

Chris, what's your take on the quality of the material Pono will carry? Will they be new masters that's something exclusive to Pono? Will it be the same stuff that's on other sites? To me that's gonna make the difference.

 

Traditionally, the record industry seems to have taken the least path of resistance where anything and everything is considered a master. It's obvious that they don't care. Is Neil gonna be able to change this attitude and deliver a fresh digital transfer of the best available master tape with a verified provenance from beginning to end? Will there be any liner notes?

[kirkmc]

Hi Kirk - I'm a big fan of your articles about all things Apple audio. I think you're a bit off when it comes to Pono. Where is the real evidence Pono was a new file format? I know the phrase new file format has been thrown around but I really haven't seen evidence of this. It's more likely this phrase was used a a figure of speech to describe something new. You also may need to hit up the CA Academy to learn about PCM and FLAC. FLAC is a container for PCM files. Nobody releases plain PCM files. Pono is still both PCM and FLAC. 64 plus 64 is 128. This is much better than 128 internal because you can swap out half the library. Complaining about 64x2 rather than 128x1 is really stretching it Kirk.

 

The original press release came from the record label's nontechnical people. The update was competed by Pono people. Both had too much going on to prepare for SXSW to proof everything before the release. Big deal. In the grand scheme of things who cares.

 

Young originally touted Pono as a file format; that's why the Wikipedia page is entitled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_(audio_format).

 

As for PCM and FLAC, PCM is uncompressed, and FLAC is compressed. WAV and AIFF are PCM; FLAC isn't. It can be uncompressed to become PCM, but it's not just a container.

 

I'm not complaining about the 128 vs 64 + 64, I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same thing. To be fair, I think a microSD card is better, especially since 128 GB microSD cards will be available soon, increasing the total storage space.

 

As I say in my article, I've worked in marketing, and anyone who's serious about selling a product proofreads their press releases. It doesn't take that long.

 

Addendum: There was also supposed to be some sort of DRM on the files originally: Neil Young’s Pono Ecosystem Will Put a ‘Freemium’ on Sound Quality | Evolver.fm. Reading this, it's clear it was meant to be a proprietary format, or at least FLACs in some sort of DRM-able wrapper.

[flatmap]

It has worked very well for many companies. Based on the success of the campaign in the first 24 hours I think Pono has made a great strategic move.

 

There's a risk putting something up on kickstarter. If it turns out that interest is lukewarm, then the beautiful dream might evaporate like a pipe dream. Everyone involved is going to take a very hard look at the numbers.

 

But when a kickstarter rolls up 1.5 Million within 24 hours or less, then this puts gas in the tank.

[wkhanna]

It's hard to imagine anything like this going mainstream, if only because it makes little sense to listen to high-res music on a portable device

 

'Why, sometimes I've (imagined) as many as six impossible things before breakfast.'

 

I tend to favor the Queen's outlook on this one, personally.

[Skeptic]

64 plus 64 is 128. This is much better than 128 internal because you can swap out half the library. Complaining about 64x2 rather than 128x1 is really stretching it Kirk.

No, 64+64 is a lot worse than 128GB.

If it had 128GB internal storage, you would be able to add a 128GB microSD card to double the player capacity.

 

As it is now, it's 128GB with no expansion capabilities. (maximum supported microSD size is 64GB)

 

The new Astell&Kern player has 256GB internal storage and a microSD slot which supports the new 128GB cards.

 

The original press release came from the record label's nontechnical people. The update was competed by Pono people.

They are still claiming "100-500" high res albums.

I calculate that I can store about 70 24/192 albums with 128GB storage.

[The Computer Audiophile]

No, 64+64 is a lot worse than 128GB.

If it had 128GB internal storage, you would be able to add a 128GB microSD card to double the player capacity.

 

As it is now, it's 128GB with no expansion capabilities. (maximum supported microSD size is 64GB)

 

The new Astell&Kern player has 256GB internal storage and a microSD slot which supports the new 128GB cards.

 

They are still claiming "100-500" high res albums.

I calculate that I can store about 70 24/192 albums with 128GB storage.

Hi skeptic - The total was 128, you can't change the facts. The issue revolved around either 128 internal or 2x64 one internal one removable.

 

the price of the new AK is several times the PonoPlayer. It should support 128 cards.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Young originally touted Pono as a file format; that's why the Wikipedia page is entitled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_(audio_format).

 

As for PCM and FLAC, PCM is uncompressed, and FLAC is compressed. WAV and AIFF are PCM; FLAC isn't. It can be uncompressed to become PCM, but it's not just a container.

 

I'm not complaining about the 128 vs 64 + 64, I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same thing. To be fair, I think a microSD card is better, especially since 128 GB microSD cards will be available soon, increasing the total storage space.

 

As I say in my article, I've worked in marketing, and anyone who's serious about selling a product proofreads their press releases. It doesn't take that long.

 

Addendum: There was also supposed to be some sort of DRM on the files originally: Neil Young’s Pono Ecosystem Will Put a ‘Freemium’ on Sound Quality | Evolver.fm. Reading this, it's clear it was meant to be a proprietary format, or at least FLACs in some sort of DRM-able wrapper.

FLAC doesn't equal compression. I have 3500 albums in uncompressed FLAC. WaV and AIFF are uncompressed containers just like FLAC Iis a container.

your work in marketing must have provided many examples of several entities working together in a time crunch and one entity issuing a press release with some errors. My guess is that any marketing intern would see this happen over the summer at least once. Again, big deal. It happens.

[sm31]

Young originally touted Pono as a file format; that's why the Wikipedia page is entitled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_(audio_format).

 

I've loosely followed Pono from the beginning, and I never had the impression that anything they said publicly was specific enough to make any conclusions that it involved a new format. It seemed to me more assumptions that people made.

 

As I Google just now, I still can't find any definitive quotes. Can you?

 

BTW, in this 2012 article, Young calls for "a modern-day iPod for the 21st Century".

[The Computer Audiophile]

I've loosely followed Pono from the beginning, and I never had the impression that anything they said publicly was specific enough to make any conclusions that it involved a new format. It seemed to me more assumptions that people made.

 

As I Google just now, I still can't find any definitive quotes. Can you?

 

BTW, in this 2012 article, Young calls for "a modern-day iPod for the 21st Century".

This is my feeling as well.

[Skeptic]

The total was 128, you can't change the facts.

That is not a "128GB player" though - it's a 64GB player with a 64GB card pre-installed.

 

"The PonoPlayer has 128GB of memory and can store from about 100 to 500 high-resolution digital-music albums, depending on the resolution and length of the original recording. Memory cards can be used to store and play different playlists and additional collections of music."

 

This is written as if it's a 128GB player and you can add a memory card to expand the storage.

 

It should support 128 cards.

That's not what they say on their website.

 

"The expansion slot can accept microSD cards of up to 64GB each"

[firedog]

Young originally touted Pono as a file format; that's why the Wikipedia page is entitled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_(audio_format).

 

As for PCM and FLAC, PCM is uncompressed, and FLAC is compressed. WAV and AIFF are PCM; FLAC isn't. It can be uncompressed to become PCM, but it's not just a container.

 

I don't know you, but before you post in a forum like this and complain, learn the basic vocabulary. Your statement above is just dead wrong. FLAC can be compressed or uncompressed. FLAC at a minimum is just an "envelope" for PCM and all FLAC files are a type of PCM file, whether compressed or not. In the end, they are uncompressed (if compressed) before playback, so what they are when stored is sort of irrelevant to this discussion.

 

And I agree with the others: till yesterday, so little was actually known about Pono that we didn't know what it was at all. The Wikipedia article is just one of many that made assumptions not based on any real facts, but on interpretations of various statements by Neil Young and others. I'm not sure how you can construe not being DRM'd to be a bad thing.