Neil young announces the launch of ponomusic

[kirkmc]

Do we have any new information on these two critical questions? Do we know anything beyond the stated sample rates and bit depths and the fact that it means righteous in Hawaiian? For this to be a true game changer, we have to have a more meaningful set of criteria and a robust control process to support it. If the lamp illuminates signaling pono quality and the reality is the files are mp3 upsampled to 192/24 I'm going to be one bummed dude. Is it possible to develop a set of minimum standards that the labels can abide by and that pono is willing to uphold that can give us the dynamics we so crave in our recordings? It's great to see all these artists on board but the folks that need convincing are the folks influencing the mastering process. That is where it seems to be going off the rails. That said, I will remain patient and continue to watch how this develops. Thank you all for your insightful posts.

 

I find the bit about the light to be quite funny. It's saying that you need to see the light to know that you're hearing the best quality. So without the light, you wouldn't know?

[13mh13]

From that promo video on the kickstarter page -- the one with all those artists -- are we supposed to believe that those artists (with all their $$, like Sting, et. al.) really haven't heard equally great DIGITAL sound? Are they using first-gen. CD players as the reference or what?!

Or (more likely, tho not entirely the cause of their enthusiasm) are these artists simply pushing a pricey product + (yet another) pricey music service that promotes the umpteenth rehashing of their antiquated albums?

Frankly, when I want the classic rock/pop genre, I go back to either loudness-free early CDs or vinyl. If I really like the classic geezer, I may rip the vinyl.

P.S. There a lot of folks in the DIY audio community that feel classic multibit DAC chips (Philips TDA1541A, etc.) -- when properly integrated into digital ckts -- have the best digital sound. Even when cost is not an issue (Zanden super-$$ DAC uses classic Philips DAC). And those DACs are "primitive" 16/44.1.

 

All this hype ... and (apparently) no DSD nor any real detail on circuit topology ... and a hefty price tag. My bets are for cheap Chinese high-performance DAPs (Colorfly, Fiio, Teclast, HiFiman) or even the new Sony (Double DSD player).

[The Computer Audiophile]

Well said John.

[VandyMan]

I find the bit about the light to be quite funny. It's saying that you need to see the light to know that you're hearing the best quality. So without the light, you wouldn't know?

 

If they define quality to include the mastering, how would you know by listening that you have the best quality? You would only know if you compared it to all the other versions of the album. If Pono bases this solely on bit-depth and sample rate, I agree with you.

[The Computer Audiophile]

If people want to read more "civilian" comments about Pono and the PonoPlayer check out this thread on the Pearl Jam website.

 

PEARL JAM

[Fokus]

From that promo video on the kickstarter page -- the one with all those artists -- are we supposed to believe that those artists (with all their $$, like Sting, et. al.) really haven't heard equally great DIGITAL sound?

 

This is marketing. They are acting, not testifying in court. It is to make Joe Pod aware that there is something else beside hisPod.

[Priaptor]

I guess I must be missing something. Are the PonoPonies going to seek out masters tapes, etc, pay for those rights, hire the best in the business to remaster the original sources using the best people and then resell it by licensing from the labels OR is this just repackaging of what is already out there an just provide people another location to purchase what is already available from HDT, Prostudiomasters, Acoustic Sounds AND by the way here is a "cheap" hand held player you can buy to listen?

 

I am not trying to be obtuse, but unless I am missing something this is just repackaging of the same product under a different brand with no guarantee it will be anything more than upsampled crap like so much of what is currently available. Don't get me wrong, Neil Young and his entourage may have the clout to bring this to the masses which should be good to us "audiophiles", but of course the unintended consequences need to be considered that when brought to the masses, just taking crap and upsampling the crap on a larger scale than is currently happening is also a possibility especially when business takes precedence over reality.

[flatmap]

...remaster the original sources using the best people and then resell it by licensing from the labels OR is this just repackaging of what is already out there an just provide people another location to purchase what is already available from HDT, Prostudiomasters, Acoustic Sounds...

My summary: We all hope to get bona fide high res masters but we all fear we will not.

[Priaptor]

My summary: We all hope to get bona fide high res masters but we all fear we will not.

 

I hear you but it shouldn't be hard for him to answer whether he is going to sell what is already out there on the Pono site or if his Pono site is going to selling ONLY high res music that Pono "engineers" have remastered to the "highest standards" using the original masters.

 

From my perch, if it is the former, I worry bringing hype to the masses will just enable more upsampled crap to be passed off as "high res"

[blaven]

John, you make more sense then just about anyone's posts I have read on this forum, except Chris.

 

Simply the Buzz from Pono will help all of us computer audio hobbyists--even if it fails. It will help simply bring attention, to a better sounding product.

 

If all I end up getting out of it, is a few new high-resolution, improved sounding albums, even if they're only Neil Young's, then I will still be happy, and the whole thing will be a benefit for me.

 

Anything else above this, will be great for all of us. It is simply getting the idea out there, that there something better sounding, then the MP3's on iTunes.

[The Computer Audiophile]

John - You're famous :~)

 

Neil Young News: Audiophiles' Thinking and Neil Young's PONO

[Priaptor]

John, you make more sense then just about anyone's posts I have read on this forum, except Chris.

 

Simply the Buzz from Pono will help all of us computer audio hobbyists--even if it fails. It will help simply bring attention, to a better sounding product.

 

If all I end up getting out of it, is a few new high-resolution, improved sounding albums, even if they're only Neil Young's, then I will still be happy, and the whole thing will be a benefit for me.

 

Anything else above this, will be great for all of us. It is simply getting the idea out there, that there something better sounding, then the MP3's on iTunes.

 

Blaven,

 

Not to rain on your parade, but my biggest fear is just the opposite. I hope you are right and that nothing but good comes out of this new enterprise, but, my fear is and what one can usually count on are the unintended consequences of bringing "new high-resolution" albums to the masses that turn out to be nothing but some of the crap we have all be exposed to and only after the fact seen that it is nothing more than upsampled garbage.

 

If that turns out to be the case, nothing will turn people off faster than when they find out that they are spending 3x the price for upsampled crap. Kids and newbies will find out and are not stupid.

 

Also, "new high-resolution" albums do not necessarily equate to "improved sounding albums". Like other "audiophiles" on these forums, I too went through the learning curve thinking "high res" meant better sounding. NOW, I am very very cautious about ever buying any reissue just because it is "high res" and make sure it is the real deal. Many of my "old" redbook rips blow away some of these "remasters".

 

Having said the above, I hope you are right.

[blaven]

Blaven,

 

Not to rain on your parade, but my biggest fear is just the opposite. I hope you are right and that nothing but good comes out of this new enterprise, but, my fear is and what one can usually count on are the unintended consequences of bringing "new high-resolution" albums to the masses that turn out to be nothing but some of the crap we have all be exposed to and only after the fact seen that it is nothing more than upsampled garbage.

 

If that turns out to be the case, nothing will turn people off faster than when they find out that they are spending 3x the price for upsampled crap. Kids and newbies will find out and are not stupid.

 

Also, "new high-resolution" albums do not necessarily equate to "improved sounding albums". Like other "audiophiles" on these forums, I too went through the learning curve thinking "high res" meant better sounding. NOW, I am very very cautious about ever buying any reissue just because it is "high res" and make sure it is the real deal. Many of my "old" redbook rips blow away some of these "remasters".

 

Having said the above, I hope you are right.

 

Agreed... I think all of us here, have CDs, that sound better, then other music in "Hi-Res".

 

I think we all understand, that the recording, and mastering, is paramount. Garbage in = garbage out.

 

You can't simply upsample crap and expect glorious sound

 

I found it interesting, in the short film on the campaign site, that a number of record company executives were interested in better sound than MP3's and compressed DR recordings.

 

We will have to see what becomes of this, and SONY entering the game

 

My hope, is that we all get more content. Obviously, we all hope this is not just more content, but better quality content as well.

[PorkChop]

Are the PonoPonies going to seek out masters tapes, etc, pay for those rights, hire the best in the business to remaster the original sources using the best people and then resell it by licensing from the labels OR is this just repackaging of what is already out there an just provide people another location to purchase what is already available from HDT, Prostudiomasters, Acoustic Sounds AND by the way here is a "cheap" hand held player you can buy to listen?

 

That's the crux of my skepticism also. Will NY and Co. test for and weed out obvious up-sampling, or will they just pass on what they are given ala HD Tracks?

[The Computer Audiophile]

I found it interesting, in the short film on the campaign site, that a number of record company executives were interested in better sound than MP3's and compressed DR recordings.

You'd be surprised. A number of people in the music industry have stunning systems in their offices and at home. I've seen a few of them. It's great to see and gives me hope the loudness wars will end.

[firedog]

InfernoSTi

 

+1 on what you said above.

 

But:

 

This product isn't about that tiny group that buys $1,000 power supplies for our custom built CAPS music servers to play through our $3,500 DACs and the fact that we want something better than the current 24/96, 24/192 and DSD offerings.

 

Oops, sounds too familiar.

[Superdad]

You'd be surprised. A number of people in the music industry have stunning systems in their offices and at home. I've seen a few of them. It's great to see and gives me hope the loudness wars will end.

 

For many years, producer Rick Rubin used a Hovland HP-100 in his playback system.

[beetlemania]

It is a mistake to think that we are the target. Sure, we would like new mastering. Sure, we would like lower compression. Sure, we would like 24/192 or DSD128 for everything. That is because we are already there. They are appealing to those who haven't started this journey yet. And if we list a bunch of features that appear on the $2,500 AK240, then we complain that the cost of music will be too high at $20 average album cost, then we have an internal logic disconnect on our part. This shouldn't sound "as good" as the $2,500 A/K, should it? If it does, doesn't that tell you A/K is ripping you off? We are talking about a portable device that only needs to sound better than iTunes MP3s to reach 90% of it's audience. That should make us happy, not angry.

 

This product isn't about that tiny group that buys $1,000 power supplies for our custom built CAPS music servers to play through our $3,500 DACs and the fact that we want something better than the current 24/96, 24/192 and DSD offerings. My gosh, I spent more on my remote control than the Pono costs (I use an old iPhone 4 and JRemote).

 

 

Also, from Part-time audiophile Why I love Pono (And Why You Should, Too) | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile

 

". . . if you’re an audiophile, Pono is not talking to you. You are welcome to play. You are invited to share. And from all the specs I’ve been looking over, you might be really happy with what’s coming. But this isn’t targeting you. Pono is trying to convert your kids. Your nieces and nephews. Your students. You know, the ones spending big on Beats headphones? Them. Pono is attempting to tell them what they’re missing. So, if it feels like they’re talking past you it’s because they are. Your job? Get one for that kid in your life you’ve been unsuccessful talking to about your hi-fi, and then pat yourself on the back for starting what you hope will be a lifelong addiction."

[Priaptor]

That's the crux of my skepticism also. Will NY and Co. test for and weed out obvious up-sampling, or will they just pass on what they are given ala HD Tracks?

 

Exactly. I am VERY skeptical particularly when generalizations are made as they have been made without specifics as it pertains to their mechanism to obtain and remaster the master sources. Without them mentioning their intent to pursue that path, I can only surmise they are not going to pursue that path and we will just see another site to obtain what we are already getting.

 

On the other hand, Neil Young's "Live At The Cellar Door" recently released in redbook is superb and very well mastered with great DR better than most rock "high res" which brings up the point to NY and others; worry about getting the mastering done properly first and high res second. The latter means nothing unless the former is done correct.

[blaven]

Yeah, but it's kind of like getting critical about what you might be getting for Christmas. At some point, we're just going to have to unwrap the present, and see if we like it.

[burnspbesq]

Blaven,

 

Not to rain on your parade, but my biggest fear is just the opposite. I hope you are right and that nothing but good comes out of this new enterprise, but, my fear is and what one can usually count on are the unintended consequences of bringing "new high-resolution" albums to the masses that turn out to be nothing but some of the crap we have all be exposed to and only after the fact seen that it is nothing more than upsampled garbage.

 

If that turns out to be the case, nothing will turn people off faster than when they find out that they are spending 3x the price for upsampled crap. Kids and newbies will find out and are not stupid.

 

Also, "new high-resolution" albums do not necessarily equate to "improved sounding albums". Like other "audiophiles" on these forums, I too went through the learning curve thinking "high res" meant better sounding. NOW, I am very very cautious about ever buying any reissue just because it is "high res" and make sure it is the real deal. Many of my "old" redbook rips blow away some of these "remasters".

 

Having said the above, I hope you are right.

 

There are more ways that PONO could fail to live up to (poorly managed) expectations than any of us can possibly count. In that, you are unquestionably correct.

 

But lets give them a fair chance and our best wishes. Maybe they won't screw up. ;-)

[burnspbesq]

Exactly. I am VERY skeptical particularly when generalizations are made as they have been made without specifics as it pertains to their mechanism to obtain and remaster the master sources. Without them mentioning their intent to pursue that path, I can only surmise they are not going to pursue that path and we will just see another site to obtain what we are already getting.

 

On the other hand, Neil Young's "Live At The Cellar Door" recently released in redbook is superb and very well mastered with great DR better than most rock "high res" which brings up the point to NY and others; worry about getting the mastering done properly first and high res second. The latter means nothing unless the former is done correct.

 

Superb? Really? I found it unlistenable. But then, I'm one of those curmudgeonly ex-singers who expects that people who get paid to sing can stay on pitch. ;-)

[REShaman]

You'd be surprised. A number of people in the music industry have stunning systems in their offices and at home. I've seen a few of them. It's great to see and gives me hope the loudness wars will end.

 

One perspective of Pono translated as "righteousness" in Hawaiian does not mean the same "righteousness" as it might be used in the NY Times (pun not intended). Another perspective of Pono intended by Hawaiian consciousness connotes for "The Highest Good". That perspective serves the fourth position, High Self Consciousness, which also includes I, You, We.

 

High Self Awareness is the conscious state of Pono. That which serves a personal responsibility and awareness that is different from what "We" determines as best. Enormous numbers of music sales and financial success from stunningly poor production. As in selling poverty to the People through with a seeming unlimited budget and through force of wealth and control influencing those who settle for less even if by choice or limited experience of what the enjoyment of music can deliver when done with integrity and production qualities we acknowledge as high quality vs hi-res.

 

Stunning systems may stun with design appearance and audio function rendition then stun with mediocre or worse SQ produced by the WE who have the choice, control to determine a sub-standard production quality for the outcome. Hi-Res used intentionally to favor a result that ultimately disappoints those of us who discern and experience what is not high quality in (whether or not hi-res) is the antithesis of Pono. As others discern even 44.1/16 can stun favorably with high quality SQ.

 

If one ascribes to The Music's the thing, The Equipment seduces, stunning systems will hopefully include Neil Young's Pono player fed by music that stuns because the intention is to produce music for the Highest Good. I signed up for the limited Neil Young signature player hoping his intention for Pono connotes the Hawaiian consciousness for what we create as Humans in this realm for the Highest Good. That will be good enough for me.

 

Offered in support of the values CA presents to World and Neil Young's goals for the future of music production and rendition.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Priaptor]

Superb? Really? I found it unlistenable. But then, I'm one of those curmudgeonly ex-singers who expects that people who get paid to sing can stay on pitch. ;-)

 

Ok you got me. ASSUMING you can stand his piercing off pitch singing. By Neil Young standards it was an excellent live recording.

[ted_b]

As the creator (many years ago) and moderator of the HiRez Music Circle over on Audio Circle, I have been carrying the hirez flag for some time now, and have seen the (very) good and the (too often) bad. I put not only the faux (upsampled) material in the bad column, but also the fairly steep premiums we pay for the legit hirez (as much as $40 and $50 for some extreme examples). These steep premiums will absolutely keep the young audience away, even if Neil (my wife and I love Neil, and our middle son is named after him) convinces the record labels to stop all the faux crap...and to bring on the Taylor Swifts and Jay Z's and lesser known college-radio artists. It's one thing to one-time spend $150 on Beats cans, it's another to shell out $25 an album for stuff that cost you zero to $9 previously. Let's hope competition brings all this stuff down, but that's a huge leap.