LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[barrows]

28 minutes ago, BlueSkyy said:

Hi Barrows.  I am not savvy enough to understand fully what you are saying and I will defer to you.  I did confirm the files were 44.1khz 16bit and not 24bit.  I wonder if JRiver MC could have manipulated the files it was streaming to the X1?  I'll check that later.  Inn any event, the readings are what I got and will probably go back to confirm the measured change at some point further along with the cable.

 

Maybe not playing anything would have been a better idea?

What I am saying is that the noise floor of CD based playback is higher than the noise floor of most good DACs.  So the noise floor should be the same with CD based playback for both of your measurements, as the noise floor of the DAC itself (what could/might change with the new cable) is not going to rise above the noise floor of the CD playback. 

 

I would certainly recommend repeating a measurement like this a number of times to confirm it.

 

Most DACs mute their output with no signal present, so measuring that way will not give any meaningful results.  This is why your approach of measuring with a file of "digital silence" is a good idea.  But even then, the ESS chip used in the X-1 has an auto-mute feature, which (if activated) will mute the chip's output when playing digital silence.  It would be helpful to ask Lumin if they have the ESS chip registers set with the auto-mute feature "on".

 

The best way to measure the noise floor of a DAC is using a 24 bit file, which has some low level content in it.  Like a couple of tones at perhaps 1 kHz -90 dB, and 500 Hz at -70 dB and then looking at the spectrum.  Otherwise, it is very likely that the DAC is muting its outputs.  By having some signal present, and the lower inherent noise floor of a 24 bit file, one can actually see on the spectrum what the floor really looks like.  The way you are measuring you should see no differences, and if you do see a difference, something is wrong with the measuring technique.  take a look at John Atkinson's DAC measurements at stereophile.com where he shows the difference between noise floors with a 16 bit and then 24 bit file, like here, where the magenta spectrum is the noise with a 16 bit file, and the red spectrum is the noise with a 24 bit file:

 

 

 

 

[barrows]

54 minutes ago, EvilTed said:

It is a carbon fiber sleeve, so it is NOT electrically shielded (in that it is not connected to ground at either end).

Yes, it may provide some benefit, but not as much as a traditional screened cable which uses a metal braid that is connected electrically to ground.

How do you know it is not connected to ground?  For example, i have made AC cables with carbon fiber shields and connected them to ground, it is not difficult to do so, as carbon fiber is highly electrical conductive.  Additionally, carbon fiber shields (or damping is a better term in this use) are still effective if left floating, at least to some frequencies, as they absorb and damp RF fields (they couple with RF energy and dissipate it by turning it into heat).  Consider stealth tech in a non grounded airplane, for example.

How much benefit a carbon shield gives is frequency specific, so one cannot just say it is "not as good", it depends what frequencies one is trying to deal with.  Also, typical metal braid shields are also not all that effective, they help a little, but their level of attenuation is not really that high or that broadband.

[BlueSkyy]

Thanks Barrow.  What you say now is more understandable to me and I can see where you are going.

 

Another thought that I had after reading your response is that, even though the DAC's output may be muted with the system not playing a file, it is possible that the analog circuitry post DAC driving the output transformers is contributing to the overall noise floor and would it be possible for EMI introduced by the interconnect between the X1 and its power supply somehow contaminate the output and be detectable whether or not the DAC was muted or not?

[barrows]

8 minutes ago, BlueSkyy said:

Thanks Barrow.  What you say now is more understandable to me and I can see where you are going.

 

Another thought that I had after reading your response is that, even though the DAC's output may be muted with the system not playing a file, it is possible that the analog circuitry post DAC driving the output transformers is contributing to the overall noise floor and would it be possible for EMI introduced by the interconnect between the X1 and its power supply somehow contaminate the output and be detectable whether or not the DAC was muted or not?

Yes, that sounds possible.  One would have to have pretty good knowledge of the design of the X-1 to really investigate that with any certainty.  Some DACs, for example, have muting relays directly at their outputs.  Are you measuring the single ended or balanced outputs?  

[BlueSkyy]

I was measuring the balanced output and, although I know relays can be nearly silent and any solid state switching arrangement would be completely silent, I have heard nary a "peep" out of the X1 or, for that matter, the A1 and S1 that came before.

[barrows]

2 minutes ago, BlueSkyy said:

I was measuring the balanced output and, although I know relays can be nearly silent and any solid state switching arrangement would be completely silent, I have heard nary a "peep" out of the X1 or, for that matter, the A1 and S1 that came before.

Output muting can also be handled by silent solid state switches at the output, so it is impossible to know for sure, unless one has the schematic of the DAC, or confirmation from the design team.

Suffice it to say though, measuring for noise while playing a 24 bit file with some, single tone, content, and then looking at the spectrum of the noise floor is the only way to truly have an idea of what is going on, as it is the only way to assure that the DAC is not muting.  This method is also much more relevant to how the DAC performs while playing music, as some DACs produce some weird noise floor modulations which are signal related.  In fact, using a signal with a bunch of unrelated low level tones, which might reveal noise floor modulations, is likely the best way to do this-this is probably one of the reasons why single tone measurements (like the -90 dB 1 kHz tone shown in the stereophile measurement above) do not tell us  everything about how a DAC actually sounds in real life, with complex music signals.

[BlueSkyy]

Roger that.  Lumin seems to closely guard the secrets, even "alchemy" to me, of what goes on inside their boxes and rightly so I suppose.  I know people have looked under the hood during some of their reviews but the physical layout of discrete components certainly doesn't tell the whole story about what's going on from input to output.

 

Thanks for the education!  I appreciate it!

 

(PS.  When you say DAC for some reason I think chip and you may be referring to the X1 in its entirety and may be the reason I am confused on some of your finer points.)

[wklie]

I have prepared a beta firmware for Lumin U1 MINI / U1 / T2 / X1 to output native DSD256 to Amanero USB DAC. (DSD512 for U1 T2 X1)

The Amanero has to be running the latest Amanero 2006be firmware.

Users who have already upgraded the Amanero may contact me for the Lumin beta firmware.

For Amanero users who wish to play DSD256 from Lumin but have not upgraded the Amanero firmware, please contact your DAC manufacturer for the proper upgrade instructions and authorized firmware version before doing any upgrade.  Upgrading Amanero to an unsupported firmware could cause various anomalies including but not limited to noise, click, pop, dropout, left right channel swapped, breaking Windows and Linux streamer operation, etc.

[BlueSkyy]

Hi Peter,

 

A question or two. Is the Amanero USB DAC a standalone device or an embedded device that a particular manufacturer may chose to use when designing their systems?  I am not sure what's inside my DACs, currently a ifi iDSD and/or a Questyle Twelve Master, regarding what particular DAC chip/s those devices incorporate so am not sure if this applies to me or not.  Will upcoming firmware upgrades for Lumin systems now take different development paths and release points based upon what DAC a person uses or will future upgrades be transparent to us end users regardless of what USB DAC hardware we are using?

 

Thanks!

[pl_svn]

50 minutes ago, BlueSkyy said:

Is the Amanero USB DAC a standalone device or an embedded device that a particular manufacturer may chose to use

not a DAC: a USB OEM card

usually it shows as "Amanero 384 Combo" (or something alike) on your computer's USB output devices list (or in Roon, unless your DAC is a Roon Ready device)

or look at your DAC's specs/ask the manufacturer

[BlueSkyy]

Thanks for that info.  Since I don't use a computer between my X1 and one of the two DACs I have, I still am not sure if there is the "OEM Amanero" device inside and I will try and get the mfr to respond although, unfortunately, Questyle has never taken the time to respond to a request for information or help of any kind.

 

I am suspecting that the firmware will be designed to be transparent to us as a user and the firmware will communicate with the DAC to make everything happy.

 

(I also may be getting wrapped around my own axle thinking about this)

[wklie]

1 hour ago, BlueSkyy said:

Is the Amanero USB DAC a standalone device or an embedded device that a particular manufacturer may chose to use when designing their systems?  I am not sure what's inside my DACs, currently a ifi iDSD and/or a Questyle Twelve Master, regarding what particular DAC chip/s those devices incorporate so am not sure if this applies to me or not.  Will upcoming firmware upgrades for Lumin systems now take different development paths and release points based upon what DAC a person uses or will future upgrades be transparent to us end users regardless of what USB DAC hardware we are using?

 

It is a USB module that DAC manufacturers integrate with.  Both of your DAC use XMOS for USB processing, so you are not affected.  Lumin DAC support is transparent in that compatible DAC should work without user intervention, that includes a lot of XMOS-based implementation, and ITF-based implementation favored by Japanese manufacturers.  It is not "transparent" if a user uses a DAC which is not completely compatible with Linux native DSD - this is true for all Linux streamers and Roon ROCK, not just Lumin.

 

Some examples of Amanero implementations include T+A, LampizatOr, Denafrips, audio-gd, Gustard, LKS, etc.

[BlueSkyy]

Thanks Peter.  Helps muchly.

[wklie]

On 6/14/2020 at 2:10 PM, smodtactical said:

di20HE

 

If you're doing U1 MINI USB output to DI-20HE, and the latter is running Amanero firmware 2006be11 or later, I have a beta Lumin firmware for you so you can try native DSD256 with this setup.

[DrNikonian]

Hi psme,

I am an owner of Lumin T1. 
Althoutg I set it downstream DSD into DoP or PCM, my Lumin can not play any 256 or 512 DSD files from my Synology NAS with Minimserver installed.

Please kindly advise.

Thank you very much

[wklie]

59 minutes ago, DrNikonian said:

I am an owner of Lumin T1. 
Althoutg I set it downstream DSD into DoP or PCM, my Lumin can not play any 256 or 512 DSD files from my Synology NAS with Minimserver installed.

 

T1 / A1 / D1 support a maximum of DSD64.  You cannot play higher DSD files without transcoding to PCM.

 

MinimStreamer supports trancoding DSD128 to PCM.  Although I've not tried it, see if this syntax works:

dsf(>64):wav24;176

 

Alternatively, you may consider upgrading to T2, which supports DSD512 playback.

[DrNikonian]

29 minutes ago, wklie said:

 

T1 / A1 / D1 support a maximum of DSD64.  You cannot play higher DSD files without transcoding to PCM.

 

MinimStreamer supports trancoding DSD128 to PCM.  Although I've not tried it, see if this syntax works:

dsf(>64):wav24;176

 

Alternatively, you may consider upgrading to T2, which supports DSD512 playback.

I've resampled DSD128 into PCM or DoP in the Lumin app. But it still failed to play
Please explain more detailed about the syntax: how and where?

Thank you very much

[wklie]

No, Lumin T1 / A1 / D1 cannot resample or play DSD128.

 

MinimStreamer:

https://minimstreamer.com/userguide.html

 

Set stream.transcode to dsf(>64):wav24;176

 

[Roy Boy]

On 8/3/2020 at 9:53 PM, wklie said:

No, Lumin T1 / A1 / D1 cannot resample or play DSD128.

 

MinimStreamer:

https://minimstreamer.com/userguide.html

 

Set stream.transcode to dsf(>64):wav24;176

 

I have been successfully transcoding DSD128 to PCM 24/384 using Minimstreamer for my Lumin A1 using:

 

Stream.transcode: dsf(128):wav24;384, flac:wav

[DrNikonian]

8 minutes ago, Roy Boy said:

I have been successfully transcoding DSD128 to PCM 24/384 using Minimstreamer for my Lumin A1 using:

 

Stream.transcode: dsf(128):wav24;384, flac:wav

Hi,

 

where to input these syntaxes? A question from newbie

 

thank you very much

[thingswelike]

3 hours ago, DrNikonian said:

Hi,

 

where to input these syntaxes? A question from newbie

 

thank you very much

Hi DrNikonian
First, you need to have the MinimStreamer package installed on MinimServer.
This may require updating MinimServer to the latest version:
https://minimstreamer.com/installing.html

 

Then in MinimServer > Properties > System Tab you should see some new fields (highlighted below):


The green highlighted field is where these transcoding strings should be entered.

(although on the latest MinimServer and MinimStreamer, I can't get the strings listed above to be accepted)

More help here:
https://minimstreamer.com/userguide.html#Transcoding
 

[DrNikonian]

21 minutes ago, thingswelike said:

Hi DrNikonian
First, you need to have the MinimStreamer package installed on MinimServer.
This may require updating MinimServer to the latest version:
https://minimstreamer.com/installing.html

 

Then in MinimServer > Properties > System Tab you should see some new fields (highlighted below):


The green highlighted field is where these transcoding strings should be entered.

(although on the latest MinimServer and MinimStreamer, I can't get the strings listed above to be accepted)

More help here:
https://minimstreamer.com/userguide.html#Transcoding
 

Yup, it works like a charm.

Since then, I could enjoy my DSD128 library 🙂

Thank you, thank you very much.

[wklie]

A Lumin A1 user commented on Leedh Processing Volume: https://www.audioshark.org/lumin-169/lumin-leedh-ing-way-18376-page3.html#post309059

 

Quote

I would just like to chime in and say that the Leedh firmware addition is a FANTASTIC add! My entire music collection has been reborn. I cannot fathom going back to adjusting volume through the pre-amp. Tip of the cap to you guys at Lumin for providing this free of charge. So very unique in this day and age. I purchased the A1 not too long after its inception, and am still enjoying it to this day. The Leedh processing is like an A1 on steroids. Nice amount of veil lifting.

 

[wklie]

Lumin D2 review with measurements by Hi-Fi news:

https://www.hifinews.com/content/lumin-d2-music-serverdac

[BlueSkyy]

Nothing new for the army of us who have the pleasure of enjoying your products!  Nicely done! 😉