HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[ericuco]

14 minutes ago, higginsd said:

The downloadable raspberry images from Signalyst website are complete bootable images with NAA support? Will they work together with a HiFiberry digital output board via optic toslink to a Pro-Ject PreBox S2 digital?

 

Generally, these images are bootable Linux versions with HQP NAA loaded for the specific devices. They are plug & play in that you cannot log-in to the device. At least that how I used it for my Cubox several years ago.

 

Once you download the image, you need to unzip it (7-zip) and then write the image to a SD card using Etcher or similar. I think a 4GB card works as a minimum.

[higginsd]

Ok, I'll give it a try tomorrow.👍

[Jacky820]

I am using pi4B With NNA4.01, I found that the temperature of 4.01 is higher than 4.0 and 3.6！

the SQ will be 4.01 >> 3.6 >> 4.0

[Outlaw]

I Miska.Get these unknown selector in NAA screen.Any idea what this is.Also does naa have to be on a ssd or spinning harddrive good enough on windows 10 ?

[Miska]

9 hours ago, Outlaw said:

I Miska.Get these unknown selector in NAA screen.Any idea what this is.Also does naa have to be on a ssd or spinning harddrive good enough on windows 10 ?

 

That looks like Amanero ASIO driver which is quite funny. For example it claims to have 16 channels and also claims to support any imaginable samplerate even if hardware doesn't. But it should work, just ignore bogus things.

 

It doesn't matter where NAA is located. The executable is tiny...

 

[Account Closed]

On 2/20/2020 at 11:45 PM, bobflood said:

Jussi, I did get the file unzipped and loaded to the card. Now I am having problems getting it working:

- when I turn the uRendu on it does boot but the red system light never goes off

-I can select Holo Audio Gen 2 USB from the Network Adapter ipv6/output menu with network control on

-when I play music (PCM or SDM) I get stuttering playback no matter what buffer setting I use.

 

At this point, I have tried everything I can think of. What am I doing wrong? For the time being I am going to put the sonicOrbiter card back in. I will try again when I get your input.

 

Thanks

I re-flashed the card again and tried ipv4 and ipv6 but I am still getting the same problem of start/stop audio. I see someone above got 401 to work on an opticalRendu but I am not having any luck with my ultraRendu. This is not a big deal as sonicOrbiter supports 4.0 perfectly and I am sure they will update to 4.0.1 soon. For now I have switched back to the SO card. It was just an experiment to see if there was any discernible difference.

[John K]

Hi~

I have recently acquired T+A DAC 8 DSD and have been testing it with Hqplayer and NAA.

The DAC is working flawlessly converting to DSD512 with direct USB connection with the Hqplayer computer but it seems to have

some problems with NAA configuration.

My current setup for NAA is as follows,

Hqplayer server (NUC8I7HVK) - network switch (HP 1810-8G) - Sotm SMS-200Ultra Neo (NAA enabled) - USB - DAC

(Roon server is attached to the same swtich on separate computer (Sonictrasporter I5) using Hqplayer with roon integration

 

With above setup I can play upto DSD128 without any problem but anything above that I get constant stutter or no sound (DSD512),

On the DAC side I did the firmware upagrde from Amanero so linux support for DSD512 is working (tested with ROON)

Also windows have the new amanero dirver installed as well.

Is there anything that I can try from the network or computer side? I did try a bunch of things like changing the switch, usb cable, lan cable and fiddling with settings on the switch (enabling flow control etc) also with windows (disabling firewall etc).

One thing I want to mention is that ROON server with embedded Hqplayer (sonictransporter) can output DSD256 to the dac using

NAA on SOTM Sms-200 but it's pretty demanding on the CPU (I5) so I prefer not to use that option. 

I am running out of options to think of and beginning to think that maybe the streamer (SMS-200) has some compatability issues but

looking at how roon server can handle dsd256 with hqplaer it is baffling why my dedicated hqplayer computer cannot do the same..

Any advise will be very much appreciate.

 

[higginsd]

Raspberry pi works fine and out of the box with the RopieeeXL image (for free) as NAA endpoint streaming the data from Ethernet via Alsa to USB (simplified said). Ropieee can also act as Roon endpoint (RAAT).

 

You can use a Pi with HiFiBerry Digi+ pro hat up to 24/192 (I2S bridge). DSD only as DoP/PCM.

 

Actual I'm using Allo USBridge Signature, which has a "quiet" and optimized USB A port. Can use up to DSD512 (1024, but nobody is able to deliver and play) and PCM 768. Also with RopieeeXL and it works as a charm!

 

Additionally you can use the Allo USBridge with Allo DigiOne hat if your DAC needs SPDIF.

 

These are the cheapest and most efficient ways to build an NAA endpoint for HQPlayer. I think this is much easier than implementing the NAA protocol to a propietary DAC OS.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, John K said:

Hqplayer server (NUC8I7HVK) - network switch (HP 1810-8G) - Sotm SMS-200Ultra Neo (NAA enabled) - USB - DAC

(Roon server is attached to the same swtich on separate computer (Sonictrasporter I5) using Hqplayer with roon integration

 

In these managed switches, make sure 802.3x Flow Control is enabled in the switch settings!

 

Usually small devices like Rendu or sMS-200 cannot handle full gigabit speed and without flow control they end up having hardware buffers overflow and as result massive packet loss. Which triggers equally massive re-send of data, which just makes the situation worse. This causes intermittent network stalls on the link.

 

It is also recommended to enable Green Ethernet / Energy Efficient (802.3az) Ethernet features such as cable length detection and link idle. This doesn't affect functionality itself, but reduces amount of emitted noise because cables in this use are usually shorter than 100m so there's no point in blasting at full transmit power designed for 100m cable on a much shorter cable. These however require some support also from those attached devices, I have not checked if EEE becomes fully enabled on those.

 

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, higginsd said:

Actual I'm using Allo USBridge Signature, which has a "quiet" and optimized USB A port. Can use up to DSD512 (1024, but nobody is able to deliver and play) and PCM 768. Also with RopieeeXL and it works as a charm!

 

HQPlayer can of course output DSD1024 and 1536/32 PCM...

 

4 hours ago, higginsd said:

These are the cheapest and most efficient ways to build an NAA endpoint for HQPlayer. I think this is much easier than implementing the NAA protocol to a propietary DAC OS.

 

This is what I use with my bootable NAA image:

https://up-shop.org/home/339-up-gws01w4g-memory32g-emmc-boardwo-vesa-plate.html

With a Meanwell medical grade PSU. With Debian 10 and my custom kernel installed it also works as a USB input to HQPlayer.

 

[John K]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

In these managed switches, make sure 802.3x Flow Control is enabled in the switch settings!

 

Usually small devices like Rendu or sMS-200 cannot handle full gigabit speed and without flow control they end up having hardware buffers overflow and as result massive packet loss. Which triggers equally massive re-send of data, which just makes the situation worse. This causes intermittent network stalls on the link.

 

It is also recommended to enable Green Ethernet / Energy Efficient (802.3az) Ethernet features such as cable length detection and link idle. This doesn't affect functionality itself, but reduces amount of emitted noise because cables in this use are usually shorter than 100m so there's no point in blasting at full transmit power designed for 100m cable on a much shorter cable. These however require some support also from those attached devices, I have not checked if EEE becomes fully enabled on those.

 

 

 

Thanks for the advise, I tinkered around with the setup again and somehow I am now able to play dsd256 without any stutter. DSD512 is still not playing though, Anyway I am happy with the DSD256 sound coming from Sotm Sms200 ultra! 

[Miska]

11 minutes ago, John K said:

Thanks for the advise, I tinkered around with the setup again and somehow I am now able to play dsd256 without any stutter. DSD512 is still not playing though, Anyway I am happy with the DSD256 sound coming from Sotm Sms200 ultra! 

 

If you are trying something like DSD512 with the EC modulators, then your server very likely cannot do it (I don't know any that can). So it may be for a different reason...

 

[John K]

46 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

If you are trying something like DSD512 with the EC modulators, then your server very likely cannot do it (I don't know any that can). So it may be for a different reason...

 

 

I just tested naa through my notebook and found that it can stream dsd512 to the dac without any problem. I guess network is okay and streamer has some issues receiving packets. Thanks for all the help!

[MarcinGD]

Hi Miska. I just purchased Audiobyte Hydra Z usb converter and I can't play native dsd through it. Could you add kernel patch to support native DSD for this converter ?

[Miska]

3 hours ago, MarcinGD said:

Hi Miska. I just purchased Audiobyte Hydra Z usb converter and I can't play native dsd through it. Could you add kernel patch to support native DSD for this converter ?

 

Maybe, but I need data about it since I don't have such.

 

[MarcinGD]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Maybe, but I need data about it since I don't have such.

 

Hi Miska. Here https://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z you have data on the bottom. If you need something more let me know I can contact maker.

 

Best regards, 

Marcin 

[Miska]

13 hours ago, MarcinGD said:

Hi Miska. Here https://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z you have data on the bottom. If you need something more let me know I can contact maker.

 

I need the DAC's part of "lsusb -vvv" output. But please use email for such, it is rather long and unnecessary noise for the thread. You can also email me the whole listing if you don't know which part is the DAC.

 

[luchoh]

On 1/28/2020 at 12:13 PM, luchoh said:

@Miska thank you!

 

I would make one more post so that people who search for info have some reference.

 

1. When I upgraded the Odroid XU4 to Armbian with 5.4.6 kernel and NAA 4.0, the native DSD is ON.

2. Unlike the x64 (or maybe NAA 3.6.1 or maybe NAA image vs Armbian), the NAA 4.0 doesn't advertise the 48k DSD support, see below:

 

+ 2020/01/28 12:03:31 Connect to 192.168.20.55:43210 [ipv4]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 44100/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 48000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 88200/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 96000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 176400/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 192000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 352800/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 384000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 705600/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 768000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 2822400/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 5644800/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 11289600/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/01/28 12:03:31 Network format: 22579200/1/2 [dsd]

I will hope for future firmware update, but won't hold my breath.

 

@Miska one last question: a workaround for this issue is to resample outside of HQPlayer (in my case - Roon).

Should I upsample all 48x rates to 705.6KHz and then feed it to HQPlayer or selectively for each rate?

 

Lucho

@Miska after installing Embedded 4.15.2 (your kernel 5.4.22-jl+) and NAA 4.1.1 suddenly my DAC is recognized to support quite a few more rates:

 

+ 2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output connect to 192.168.20.55:43210 [ipv4]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 44100/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 48000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 88200/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 96000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 176400/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 192000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 352800/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 384000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 705600/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 768000/24/2 [pcm]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 2822400/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 3072000/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 5644800/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 6144000/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 11289600/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 12288000/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 22579200/1/2 [dsd]
  2020/04/03 13:42:00 NAA output network format: 24576000/1/2 [dsd]

 

 

So it seems now I can play x48 with Topping D90. It was HQPe/NAA (or kernel) issue all along.

 

What happens however is very interesting ... when i play a x44.1 file first and the engine is initialized, I can then go to a x48 file in my playlist.

  2020/04/03 13:50:37 NAA output set sampling rate: 12288000 (12288000)
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Automatic output rate: 12288000
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Rate or blocksize change triggered
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Rate: 96000, block size: 7680, frame size: 1280
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Block size: 7680 (sample: 3)
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Oversampling: sinc (1M taps)
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Modulator: adaptive fifth order 1-bit ec
  2020/04/03 13:50:37 Integrator: IIR
  2020/04/03 13:50:38 Playback engine ratio: 128

 

However, if I change settings in HQPe, then playing directly x48 produces silence (the log file shows that it's playing - NAA output network engine started at: 12288000 and Roon tracker is moving). If I keep changing things at some point it will directly refuse to play with:

No suitable output rate for 96000, stop

 

If I skip to x44.1 track and then back to x48 track - it plays fine...

 

It's not the end of the world for me as I found a workaround, but I figured it may be helpful to you.

 

I'm using CUDA offload btw. I can supply the config file should you need it.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, luchoh said:

However, if I change settings in HQPe, then playing directly x48 produces silence (the log file shows that it's playing - NAA output network engine started at: 12288000 and Roon tracker is moving).

 

It needs to be checked that 48k DSD actually produces correct results. There are DACs that you may trick into producing sound at those rates, but the DAC actually ends up using 44.1k clock, so the music is playing too slow.

 

[bodiebill]

A JCAT net card FEMTO is on its way to me...

In my HQP server => NAA endpoint setup, could anyone recommend the best place for it?

In the server or in the NAA endpoint?

(The server is in another room and currently optically isolated from the endpoint with a fiber connection.) 

[blueninjasix]

Is there a bootable NAA image for Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[luchoh]

On 4/3/2020 at 11:14 PM, Miska said:

 

It needs to be checked that 48k DSD actually produces correct results. There are DACs that you may trick into producing sound at those rates, but the DAC actually ends up using 44.1k clock, so the music is playing too slow.

 

@Miska do you mean the music is audibly slower? That's not what I hear. It plays at normal speed. I think I should be able to hear 8% difference in speed... is there a way to be certain? This is what the log says when inputting 96KHz:

 

NAA output set sampling rate: 6144000 (6144000)
Automatic output rate: 6144000
Rate or blocksize change triggered
Rate: 96000, block size: 7680, frame size: 1280
Block size: 7680 (sample: 3)

The DAC however shows 11.28MHz - probably because it is higher than DSD128 and this is what the firmware developer decided to show when > 5644800

[Miska]

14 minutes ago, luchoh said:

@Miska do you mean the music is audibly slower? That's not what I hear. It plays at normal speed. I think I should be able to hear 8% difference in speed... is there a way to be certain? This is what the log says when inputting 96KHz:

 

Yes, it would be good to check with spectrum analyzer that 1 kHz tone actually appears at 1 kHz in the output at those rates.

 

15 minutes ago, luchoh said:

The DAC however shows 11.28MHz - probably because it is higher than DSD128 and this is what the firmware developer decided to show when > 5644800

 

I suspect the firmware is somewhat broken in terms of support for 48k-base DSD. So it would be better to uncheck the "48k DSD" in HQPlayer settings and just stick to 44.1k base. At least until the manufacturer has tested and fixed behavior at 48k-base DSD.

 

Different DACs behave differently in such cases. Display indication is also broken for example in Pro-Ject PreBox S2 Digital, but otherwise seems to work (just doesn't indicate DSD). While for example on Mytek DACs sound gets badly distorted at 48k x256 speeds in addition to incorrect display. Manufacturers should really check and verify this functionality.

 

[luchoh]

On 4/7/2020 at 3:11 PM, Miska said:

 

Yes, it would be good to check with spectrum analyzer that 1 kHz tone actually appears at 1 kHz in the output at those rates.

 

 

I suspect the firmware is somewhat broken in terms of support for 48k-base DSD. So it would be better to uncheck the "48k DSD" in HQPlayer settings and just stick to 44.1k base. At least until the manufacturer has tested and fixed behavior at 48k-base DSD.

 

Different DACs behave differently in such cases. Display indication is also broken for example in Pro-Ject PreBox S2 Digital, but otherwise seems to work (just doesn't indicate DSD). While for example on Mytek DACs sound gets badly distorted at 48k x256 speeds in addition to incorrect display. Manufacturers should really check and verify this functionality.

 

Thank you @Miska, I'll check with the spectrum analyzer and report back. I believe you're correct though - the firmware shouldn't lie.

[blueninjasix]

I finally managed to set up Raspbian buster lite on my USBridge Signature and download and install the armh Deb file. I'm using Ubuntu Studio on the other computer. My DAC is Chord Qutest. I only use PCM and upscale to 705. I still get loads of cracks and pops (more even than when I have Ropieexl loaded on the USBridge Signature).

I decided to try a different path and got a Pi 4. I installed Raspbian and enabled 64bit and undated kernel to aarch64. I can get the 32 bit  armhf Deb file (downloaded from Signalyst) to work perfectly with no cracks and pops.

My problem is trying to install the 64 bit package. There's a missing dependency called librasound2. The file exists in an armhf version but not arm64. Can anyone help please?