Article: JPLAY for iOS Is Now Available

[maxijazz]

4 hours ago, mnuno10 said:

1- The first one is not that the control point will affect the SQ per se, but if a control point is using UPnP to send actions to a renderer and another control point is using OpenHome, that can lead to the first one have better SQ. That's because when using OpenHome, renderer has more work to do, as it has to keep track of the queue in order to play all the tracks. That's why some renderers you have worse SQ when using gapless, because renderer has to prepare the next track while playing the current one. In my tests OpenHome always sounded worse than normal UPnP. That's why I prefer to use UPnP and disable OpenHome(if possible). I remember that, in my old SOtM sMS-100, only the act of enabling OpenHome decreased SQ.
2 - There is something called eventing, that some control points can use to communicate with renderer. The way that this works is, instead of being the control point asking for the progress of the track(polling), is the renderer that communicates these actions to the control point. So control point has to register to receive events, and renderer will start sending them. If control point is killed there is not need to send events anymore and renderer can now avoid send them, leading to better SQ. In my tests eventing sounded worse than polling.

1. you are missing point here. Question was not if one protocol is better than another (UPNP better than OpenHome) while control point actively used. Question was if closed control point has impact on quality over running control point.

2. you might have point here

[mnuno10]

16 hours ago, Ben Webster said:

Many thanks for your long answer.

 

ad 1) I fully agree and can confirm.

 

ad 2) not sure if I get your point. Does that mean, that even if you closed the Control point, the Control PC still have events which try to reach the Control Point. If yes, it‘s clear, that the sounds get worse.

 

I guess JPlay iOS uses „polling“ and not „events“?

2. I'm not entirely sure on that, but I think that can happen, at least for a couple of seconds, until renderer realises that connection should be closed and that there is no mores renderers waiting for events. Although my answer here is more related with the different impact that control point can have, even if both use UPnP protocol but with different implementations(polling/eventing). And that closing an control point can have more or less impact based on that. So you should have better SQ using polling vs eventing, but once the apps are killed(and if renderer is doing things right, this meaning closing the connections properly) they should sound almost the same.

Yes, JPlay iOS uses "polling".

 

13 hours ago, maxijazz said:

1. you are missing point here. Question was not if one protocol is better than another (UPNP better than OpenHome) while control point actively used. Question was if closed control point has impact on quality over running control point.

2. you might have point here

1 . Ben Webster said: "But he thought when closing the App on iPhone/iPad there will be no difference anymore. I think there will be still a difference based on which App started the play.". So, I'm only trying to say is that protocol still matters even with the app closed. And that UPnP should sound better than OpenHome even after app closed.

[Marcin_gps]

The differences in various protocols and remote apps are due to few factors, but most important are how much network traffic is used by the app and the remote device the app is using. It is "crazy", but somehow even few KB/s can make an audible difference. 

 

I urge you to try setting your iPads in 'power saving mode' and 'limit data transmission' in network configuration of the iPad. It will run slower, but the important thing is how it "sounds"

 

I can hear a clear improvement in my setup. The difference is not huge, but still audible. 

 

Best regards,

Marcin

[Mike Rubin]

5 hours ago, Marcin_gps said:

The differences in various protocols and remote apps are due to few factors, but most important are how much network traffic is used by the app and the remote device the app is using. It is "crazy", but somehow even few KB/s can make an audible difference. 

 

I urge you to try setting your iPads in 'power saving mode' and 'limit data transmission' in network configuration of the iPad. It will run slower, but the important thing is how it "sounds"

 

I can hear a clear improvement in my setup. The difference is not huge, but still audible. 

 

Best regards,

Marcin

I don't doubt what you say, Marcin, and I trust your ears, but posts like these make me realize that I have zero actual idea how mobile-controlled networked music even works. I always thought that the controller isn't actually in the signal path and that it just sends destination information to the server, which then passes the audio signal along the network path between server and client. It seems that it would be an odd thing for the audio signal to pass through any of my wifi devices (including mobile devices with controlled apps) when I have a wired connection between server and client. I would love to understand how the controller's power settings can affect the signal when it wouldn't ordinarily be in the audio signal path. 

 

Is my understanding of how all this works incorrect? 

[Marcin_gps]

16 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I don't doubt what you say, Marcin, and I trust your ears, but posts like these make me realize that I have zero actual idea how mobile-controlled networked music even works. I always thought that the controller isn't actually in the signal path and that it just sends destination information to the server, which then passes the audio signal along the network path between server and client. It seems that it would be an odd thing for the audio signal to pass through any of my wifi devices (including mobile devices with controlled apps) when I have a wired connection between server and client. I would love to understand how the controller's power settings can affect the signal when it wouldn't ordinarily be in the audio signal path. 

 

Is my understanding of how all this works incorrect? 

It is not in the audio signal path, but it is in in the network traffic of your home network. And that seems to make a difference. 

 

Best regards,
Marcin
 

[Ben Webster]

Hi @Marcin_gps,

 

do JPlay iOS and Kazoo sound the same when starting from iPad and switch off the iPad (so no further communication between Control Point and Control PC)?
 

Kind regards

Ben

[agisthos]

I’m not sure how good the interface/library is, but this app has superior sound quality.

 

I recently got some Mark Levinson 5909 wireless headphones. They are rated as one of the best sounding headphones in the wireless category.

 

No amps, wires etc just a Bluetooth connection from headphones to iPhone 14, and that iphone accessing my local music content on a Qnap NAS.

 

Compared to say VLC player for iOS, Jplay is noticeably better sonically. How? The 5909 is a resolving headphone with excellent clarity to hear such differences, but it still receives the signal via lossy Bluetooth. It’s surprising an app on iPhone can improve things. I’m subscribing for life.
 

Marcin and his team have some wizardry going on here. But I shouldn’t be surprised - I remember almost a decade ago building a PC media player for my friends high end (Sonus Faber + Primare) system and the JPlay program on windows was audibly superior than others, especially in the special ‘hibernate mode’. 
 

It just shows Marcin is willing to investigate and go down unusual pathways to achieving best sound quality. Bravo!

[Marcin_gps]

On 3/11/2023 at 5:30 PM, Ben Webster said:

Hi @Marcin_gps,

 

do JPlay iOS and Kazoo sound the same when starting from iPad and switch off the iPad (so no further communication between Control Point and Control PC)?
 

Kind regards

Ben

 

As far as I know, Kazoo is an OpenHome app and JPLAY iOS is UPnP, so these can't be compared directly. In theory if iPad is switched off, the sound should be the same for any UPnP remote apps, but what is the point of switching iPad off if you can't use the app then? :) 

 

On 3/12/2023 at 11:22 AM, agisthos said:

I’m not sure how good the interface/library is, but this app has superior sound quality.

 

I recently got some Mark Levinson 5909 wireless headphones. They are rated as one of the best sounding headphones in the wireless category.

 

No amps, wires etc just a Bluetooth connection from headphones to iPhone 14, and that iphone accessing my local music content on a Qnap NAS.

 

Compared to say VLC player for iOS, Jplay is noticeably better sonically. How? The 5909 is a resolving headphone with excellent clarity to hear such differences, but it still receives the signal via lossy Bluetooth. It’s surprising an app on iPhone can improve things. I’m subscribing for life.
 

Marcin and his team have some wizardry going on here. But I shouldn’t be surprised - I remember almost a decade ago building a PC media player for my friends high end (Sonus Faber + Primare) system and the JPlay program on windows was audibly superior than others, especially in the special ‘hibernate mode’. 
 

It just shows Marcin is willing to investigate and go down unusual pathways to achieving best sound quality. Bravo!

 

Thank you for the compliments :)

 

Best regards,
Marcin
 

[Ben Webster]

Thanks Marcin. I use the control point to create a play list or start a complete album. During listening there is no need for me to use the iPad, so I switch it off for better sound quality. 

[stefano_mbp]

22 hours ago, Ben Webster said:

Thanks Marcin. I use the control point to create a play list or start a complete album. During listening there is no need for me to use the iPad, so I switch it off for better sound quality. 

Remember that using JPlay for iOS if you switch off the tablet, playback will end at the end of the current playing track

[Ben Webster]

2 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Remember that using JPlay for iOS if you switch off the tablet, playback will end at the end of the current playing track

Really? I thought this was only at the time of beginning of UPnP control points. 
 

Thanks for bringing this issue on the table.

[stefano_mbp]

8 minutes ago, Ben Webster said:

Thanks for bringing this issue on the table.

It’s not a issue, it is the normal UPNP behavior, that is different from UPNP with OpenHome extension where the whole queue is transferred to the renderer at the beginning of the playback

[Marcin_gps]

15 minutes ago, Ben Webster said:

Really? I thought this was only at the time of beginning of UPnP control points. 
 

Thanks for bringing this issue on the table.

 

Yes, because UPnP stores queue on a remote device whereas OpenHome stores queue directly on the player (renderer) side. This gives UPnP a slight edge in terms of overhead. 

[agisthos]

Has there been investigation as to which UPnP library source sounds best? I did find a sonic difference between Twonky and Serviio (both running off a qnap nas). 
 

One was not better than the other, they were just quite different. I guess the next one to try is Minimserver.

[enregistree]

Thank you for adding "sort by release date" option in Albums list. (It came with last update few weeks ago.) Small step, but very convenient…

[vlomdmdiv]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:19 AM, vlomdmdiv said:

 Any progress here, by chance? 

Did the latest update address this so that we can use the app with our Chord 2go/Hugo2 combos? See prior posts. Thanks

[vlomdmdiv]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:52 PM, mnuno10 said:

Yes, MConnect does not use subscriptions or in-app purchases, so they don't need to validate that user is allowed to use their app. Right now you need internet to start JPLAY app, but has I said we will look on a solution, so user can make a few app launchs without internet connection.  

Did the latest app update address this, I'm wondering? Thanks.

[mnuno10]

On 5/10/2023 at 2:11 PM, vlomdmdiv said:

Did the latest app update address this, I'm wondering? Thanks.

Last update no, but next update(that should be released by tomorrow) will address this issue.

After validating your subscription, you should be able to make some app launchs without internet connection.

[al210]

I’m pretty much giving up on this App. It always just randomly stops playback and won’t play the next song in the list with my Lumin U1. Sometimes it’ll play one song the next time it might get through 15 before it stops. I have the latest version of both the App and Lumin firmware. Lumin app never does this. 

[stefano_mbp]

38 minutes ago, al210 said:

I’m pretty much giving up on this App. It always just randomly stops playback and won’t play the next song in the list with my Lumin U1. Sometimes it’ll play one song the next time it might get through 15 before it stops. I have the latest version of both the App and Lumin firmware. Lumin app never does this. 

Not using a Lumïn streamer here, I’m using a SOtM sMS200, but that never happened to me unless I swipe off the app, it must be opened or running in the background.

Can you post your renderer settings in the app?

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, al210 said:

I’m pretty much giving up on this App. It always just randomly stops playback and won’t play the next song in the list with my Lumin U1. Sometimes it’ll play one song the next time it might get through 15 before it stops. I have the latest version of both the App and Lumin firmware. Lumin app never does this. 

In the early days of JPLAY, Lumin and JPLAY worked together to stabilise the performance of Lumin devices. Since then and subsequent updates, the satbility has improved quite a lot.

 

Tips and check list

a) Is any other application controlling the U1? Very important to switch the other apps off. You can operate the Lumin app, but don't add the library.

b) What's the server software, Minimserver, is this updated as well as a new JAVA version is out from this month. Important to trash old Java versions.

c) The Lumin 'works out' the drivers for the DAC and hand shakes accordingly. It's based on Linux. for instance the U1 with my DAC maxes out at DSD128, although with native driver, the DAC can accept DSD256 via Windows driver. 

To start things off, power up the Lumin, wait for the dime sized circle, then power up the DAC.

d) Long shot - switch off other interfaces like AES3, optical if not in use.

e) Another long shot - Network congestion IP conflicts, it's a long shot

 

Attached are two screen shots for the U1 in my system which works and is very stable. FW version for the U1 is 15.3 (there is 15.3a avaialble), hardware code 104010, DNS 8.8.8.8, there maybe more relevant items in the screenshot, but not 100% applicable.

 

 

 

[al210]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

Not using a Lumïn streamer here, I’m using a SOtM sMS200, but that never happened to me unless I swipe off the app, it must be opened or running in the background.

Can you post your renderer settings in the app?

 

[stefano_mbp]

3 hours ago, al210 said:

 

Have you tried setting Update time to 10/20? I use 20 and I have Safe Transition Mode unchecked 

[mnuno10]

On 5/10/2023 at 2:11 PM, vlomdmdiv said:

Did the latest app update address this, I'm wondering? Thanks.

Version 1.0.12 should allow you to make some app launchs without internet connection. Have you tried?

[al210]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:33 AM, stefano_mbp said:

Have you tried setting Update time to 10/20? I use 20 and I have Safe Transition Mode unchecked 

No, I will try these setting and report back.

thank you