Tuttle et al v Audiophile Music Direct

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

Sure. But I'm 60 tomorrow. And I've become kinda interested in TBVO KOB to spend my birthday money on. Can't make the wrong call!

 

Just need to invite more people to help celebrate your birthday. 😉

[firedog]

24 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

 

Did anyone happen to notice Fremer and the summary of the Kassem interview appear to be in conflict? (Bernie Grundman cutting direct to two channel with no mix down, vs. Kevin Gray mix.)

Not sure I understand the conflict. Bernie was allowed to work in 1994 with the original 3 track tapes. He mixed them down on the fly to create the master.

Wilder (not Gray)was working 20 years later with highly degraded tapes. So he copied them digitally to DSD and high res to preserve them.

He also made tape mono and stereo mixdowns and both LPs and digital releases were made from his analog and digital copies.

The tapes haven't been used since. So either the plates from 1995 have to be used, or Wilder's digital/analog copies. 

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

Gray was working 20 years later with highly degraded tapes. So he copied them digitally to DSD and high res to preserve them.

He also made tape mono and stereo mixdowns and both LPs and digital releases were made from his analog and digital mixes. 

The tapes haven't been used since. So either the plates from 1995 have to be used, or Gray's digital/analog copies. 

 

"...mix done in 1995 by Kevin Gray for Classic Records...."

 

?

[Iving]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

Just need to invite more people to help celebrate your birthday. 😉

 

Honestly for me a birthday treat is fewer/no people! [except the wife]

[firedog]

Just now, Jud said:

 

"...mix done in 1995 by Kevin Gray for Classic Records...."

 

?

I'm pretty sure he corrected that somewhere.

[firedog]

17 minutes ago, firedog said:

I'm pretty sure he corrected that somewhere.

Got Kevin Gray and Mark Wilder mixed up above. Gray worked on the Sony/Columbia releases, done from digital around 2010 AFAIK. Wilder did the transfers of the original 3 track tapes to both analog mixdowns and digital. 

[Iving]

44 minutes ago, Jud said:

Did anyone happen to notice Fremer and the summary of the Kassem interview appear to be in conflict? (Bernie Grundman cutting direct to two channel with no mix down, vs. Kevin Gray mix.)

 

Oracle Strat-Mangler says (aside from some pejoratives re what he read on Audiogon after I directed him there):

 

Grundman ... did pretty much most (all?) of the mastering for Classic Records on a tube system. Although it is possible, I don't recall ever seeing KG's name attached to any CR pressings.

2nd of all, CR and AP are 2 different companies. AP started in '91 and only put out Miles Davis records in '96: not '95... and none of those 3 were Kind Of Blue.

The original stereo tapes are 3-track which needed to be downmixed to 2-track (stereo).

The stereo Grundman (whether the '95 CR or the UHQR) is as good as it gets unless you want to hunt for an original 6-eye stereo Columbia, costing many times more. No real need as the CR is new and if purchased via AS, you'll eventually get a good one.

However, since you're in the UK, it might be best to buy a play-graded NM condition copy from Discogs situated in the UK (if you want the 33rpm CR). If you opt for the 2x45rpm, order directly from AS.

The mono Ryan K. Smith is the best I've heard it, although I haven't hunted down an original. Maybe one day but everyone agrees it's stunning.

[JoeWhip]

Having heard the mono and stereo versions of KOB. Give me the stereo every time.  I have the CR release and the 24/192 capture. It isn’t hard to guess which one I prefer.

[Jud]

The DR Database entries, in descending order of dynamic range (the UHQR is on the second page): https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/dr/desc?artist=miles davis&album=kind of blue

[Rt66indierock]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What timing. In my email today, "from the original 3-track master tapes." 

 

If @Rt66indierock is to be believed, the average consumer thinks this is fake because the original tapes are worn out and it's sourced from digital. 

 

 

 

Chris, I went to an event at a Phoenix high-end store in 2017 to hear the new Flying Burrito Brothers reissue of The Gilded Palace of Sin. Many claims were made about the tapes used. I knew better from a dinner meeting after a consulting engagement in Los Angeles in 2009. Somebody after a few drinks let slip that the Universal fire was far worse the anybody was letting on. I asked the Flying Burrito Bros? Captain Beefheart? All gone he said but there are copies.

 

At RMAF on 2017 after seminar I asked the Intervention Records representative about how they had the record. I was a told it came from a safety copy.

 

As for Kind of Blue, people have chimed in about the various tapes. I’ve always wondered whether any of the two and four track reel to reel releases were used to fix errors or places where the tape has worn out.

[firedog]

7 hours ago, Jud said:

The DR Database entries, in descending order of dynamic range (the UHQR is on the second page): https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/dr/desc?artist=miles davis&album=kind of blue

I'd say those are almost all so close as to be pretty meaningless. The DR SW isn't a super precise tool, especially with vinyl rips. I'd hesitate  to draw any conclusion about SQ from those results.

The tool in Roon (works on average levels, not peaks, so is less sensitive to the impact of silence) gives some more difference in the results, but I don't hear a big difference in actual listening that seems to reflect the numbers. 

[musicjunkie917]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

The tool in Roon (works on average levels, not peaks, so is less sensitive to the impact of silence) gives some more difference in the results, but I don't hear a big difference in actual listening that seems to reflect the numbers. 

 

 

This was posted on the Roon forum:

-----------------------------------------

Roon uses EBU R128 to calculate dynamic range while most people in the audio world, including the Dynamic Range database, use a crest factor algorithm. 

 

EBU R128 is perfect for volume leveling and the fact that Roon uses this to do volume leveling is great. People wanting the Dynamic Range Database DR numbers too is not a criticism of that choice. It is a realistic request based on the fact that the DR database numbers are more reflective of the actual amount of compression any given track may have. Look at this:

 

https://www.maat.digital/droffline/ 12

 

Specifically:

 

“Unlike R128 and BS. 1770 meters, DR measures dynamic range from the perspective of a music engineer’s needs. In contrast, R128 and 1770 are designed to control loudness for commercials , not measure dynamic range for music, especially pop music. DR isn’t designed for broadcast loudness control, it’s purpose is to gauge the amount of dynamic range reduction, or the absence of dynamic range contrast. Designed by a member of the EBU ploud committee, the same body that created R128, DR informs an engineer about how much the mix is being or has been “stepped on,” dynamic range-wise, not about “will it pass through a broadcast chain without loudness reduction?”

 

I used to use volume leveling but I have turned it off. Why? Two reasons. First, it was sucking the life out of the music. It was diminishing the soundstage by making it less 3D. Second, I started listening to full albums almost exclusively so volume leveling became unnecessary as I have a remote control volume and don’t mind making an adjustment for each album. Though most of the time I don’t feel the need.

------------------------------------------

 

I, personally, have found EBU R128 to be a poor indicator of dynamic range and compression compared to the crest factor algorithm used by the DR Database.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, firedog said:

I'd hesitate  to draw any conclusion about SQ from those results.

 

Yes, I think that's a conclusion in itself, unlike a situation where there are obviously compressed versions.

[Rt66indierock]

21 hours ago, Iving said:

 

Sure. But I'm 60 tomorrow. And I've become kinda interested in TBVO KOB to spend my birthday money on. Can't make the wrong call!

 

Irving happy birthday, enjoy Kind of Blue. I'm off to Cabo for five days. My only audiophile thoughts during this time will be how I'm going to lure Andy Quint of The Absolute Sound to Arizona. I want to show him the Grand Canyon, Grand Canyon Caves and little of Rt 66. If we see any wild horses, wild burros, coyotes, bobcats, and the odd land tortoise so much the better.

[firedog]

Looked today. The Roon database has 37 different released editions of KOB - CD, LP, SACD, and downloads. Gotta be a record for one album, no?

[firedog]

53 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Irving happy birthday, enjoy Kind of Blue. I'm off to Cabo for five days. My only audiophile thoughts during this time will be how I'm going to lure Andy Quint of The Absolute Sound to Arizona. I want to show him the Grand Canyon, Grand Canyon Caves and little of Rt 66. If we see any wild horses, wild burros, coyotes, bobcats, and the odd land tortoise so much the better.

Maybe play some MQA music and it will lure him. It seems to work for many staffers from there....

[Jud]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Looked today. The Roon database has 37 different released editions of KOB - CD, LP, SACD, and downloads. Gotta be a record for one album, no?

 

Apparently Dark Side of the Moon had nearly 500 versions listed on Discogs as of 6 years ago and was still considered incomplete.  I don't know what was considered a "version" there, though.

 

https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/708862

[Jud]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Apparently Dark Side of the Moon had nearly 500 versions listed on Discogs as of 6 years ago and was still considered incomplete.  I don't know what was considered a "version" there, though.

 

https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/708862

 

Now *there* would be a job for @JoshM! 😁

[firedog]

24 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Apparently Dark Side of the Moon had nearly 500 versions listed on Discogs as of 6 years ago and was still considered incomplete.  I don't know what was considered a "version" there, though.

 

https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/708862

Discogs lists releases in various countries.  The same LP or CD mastering released in 2 different countries counts as 2 releases there.  A different type of list.

Roon is trying to list different versions - different master, deluxe version, etc. 

 

So for DSOTM, Roon only lists 23 versions. 

 

I realize neither of those definitions is exact or necessarily correct.  But at least 37 DIFFERENT releases (I'm sure they don't have them all, they often don't seem to have Japanese versions in their database) is really a lot. Tells you how many companies have repeatedly thought they could make money off an additional release of KOB - and most probably have. 

[firedog]

31 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Now *there* would be a job for @JoshM! 😁

Bad idea. It might kill him....not to mention bankrupt him.

[JoeWhip]

When it comes to KOB, I want a transfer from the master using that alien recording tech recovered at Roswell, for the definitive version. Hate to tell Mr. Fremer, but the aliens use quantum digital, no analog in the chain. I can wait.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

When it comes to KOB, I want a transfer from the master using that alien recording tech recovered at Roswell, for the definitive version. Hate to tell Mr. Fremer, but the aliens use quantum digital, no analog in the chain. I can wait.

I thought they use digital with an analog step. 

[JoeWhip]

Fake news Chris. You clearly do not understand Quantum digital!!😎 I wish I could reveal all but the folks at MJ12 won’t let me.

[Josh Mound]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Now *there* would be a job for @JoshM! 😁

I’ve been working on Dark Side on and off for over a year. Even given that I only include digital masterings, it’s a huge job.
 

Like some of the Steely Dan albums, there also seems to be some misinformation about which masterings are truly unique. 

 

I don’t think it’ll be the next TBVO, but it will be one of the next two or three.

 

33 minutes ago, firedog said:

Bad idea. It might kill him....not to mention bankrupt him.

 

Don’t think that buying a bunch of (often pricey) ‘80s Dark Side CDs for the upcoming TBVO wasn’t part of my motivation to create Club TBVO!

[firedog]

19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I thought they use digital with an analog step. 

That's Blue Coast Records. I hope that doesn't mean Cookie Marenco is an alien.