Reverse Confirmation Bias... Power Conditioner

[creativepart]

For years, I've been a naysayer when it came to many audio "accessories." I'm not a believer in $11,000 speaker cables, boutique interconnects, nor, any kind of power conditioning. My power is fine thank you.

 

I am a believer in new better amps, dacs, speakers, turntables, cartridges, etc.

 

So, while shopping on Audiogon for possible deals for a new integrated amp I spent some time in A'gon's forum discussions and saw many praising the PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 and what it did for the sound quality for their amps - and how this stopped them from looking for a new amp. This, of course, led to much more research into the device and there seemed to be nearly universal agreement that it actually made a noticeable improvement in, well, everything.

 

Since this thing costs as much as a decent integrated amp then it better do something. I decided to find out for myself. I found a nearly new used PowerPlant3 for about $1000 less than a new one. And, it had a 15-day return policy for any reason. OK, that's low risk.

 

It took 3-days to receive the PS Audio device. It's a regenerater, not really a filter, though it can do that, too. The thing weighs more than my heavy all-tube Rogue Cronus Magnum II integrated amp and it's only half the size of the amp. What's in this thing? Dragons?

 

I wrestled this thing into my rack which required a lot of reorganization. Powered every thing up and expected to hear no changes. I was so positive that it was going to be returned because it made no difference - I had already looked up the return process. All those other reviews had to be from deluded people that wanted to believe it made that much of a difference. Ha! Not me.

 

But... Hello? It made a huge noticeable difference from the very first start of the music. I know you'll ask me what difference it makes - but to tell you would require all those stupid audiophile review words - separation, air, soundstage, clarity. I'd say that the difference is best described as MORE. I was sure it was snake oil, and I don't care for snakes, actually. But it's not. This thing is not going anywhere. I don't think I could go back to the sound without it in my system.

[firedog]

Your expectation biases aren't conscious, by definition. You don't know what they are. You may think you expected no improvement, but that doesn't mean you didn't. 

 

Beyond that, when I've seen third party testing of PS Audio Regenerators, their isn't any proof they actually reduce noise and distortion.

 

At this point, you are sure it works, so you might as well keep it. 

[Iving]

Thanks for the story

 

2 hours ago, creativepart said:

I was so positive that it was going to be returned because it made no difference - I had already looked up the return process. All those other reviews had to be from deluded people that wanted to believe it made that much of a difference. Ha! Not me.

 

You went to all this trouble, did all this research, buying the thing, "wrestling" with your equipment ... because you were "so positive" you'd return it ...

= You were hoping it would be a great purchase but didn't have complete confidence in Audigon people's ears, were worried you'd be landed with a lemon if your own ears told you it sucked - and you probably wouldn't have bought the thing without the 15 day return promise.

 

iow your net expectation bias was hope = positive = improvement

 

2 hours ago, creativepart said:

Hello? ... This thing is not going anywhere. I don't think I could go back to the sound without it in my system.

 

You posted here because you're still not sure and wanted reaction even if pejorative. How many of the 15 days are left?

[creativepart]

To help clear this up a bit. I've purchased other gear with No Questions Returns in the past and returned it when the item seemed no better in my system.

 

I buy just about  - really all - my gear via the internet and without being able to audition it. I buy plenty of used items with a clear knowledge that if I don't like it I can quickly resell it for a small loss.

 

I've bought plenty of things I thought would be a great purchase and not found it to be anything worth paying for to update my system. I enjoy this part of the process. You can't ever know what works for you without trying it in your system.

 

No question returns help facilitate this process.

 

I would say that 90% of the time that I make a multi-thousand dollar purchase that I have not only done extensive research before hand but earnestly expect a positive outcome. This power conditioner I researched for only a day, but have thought about and read up on the subject in general for probably many years. I've not bought any such device previously because even with plenty of positive online reviews I've remained skeptical of the entire product category this whole time.

 

I would not have purchased this with out the No Questions Return policy because of this skepticism.

 

I can't know my subconscious mind - but still felt skeptical of the benefits up and until I tried the product.

 

So, perhaps your responses are indeed correct and subconsciously I expected great results. If that's so it's news to my conscious mind.

 

Oh and there are 12-days left in the No Questions Return option.

 

PS. I'm 72 and have lost enough upper body strength that putting ANY heavy item in my system is "wrestling." Heck, getting the box in from the porch was very much a wrestling match.

[creativepart]

35 minutes ago, Iving said:

You posted here because you're still not sure and wanted reaction even if pejorative.

It's simple really, I posted here not for the reaction, positive or negative - but for the edification of others that are skeptical, like I was, of power conditioning/regenerating devices being a potential for sound quality improvements.

[Iving]

4 minutes ago, creativepart said:

It's simple really, I posted here not for the reaction, positive or negative - but for the edification of others that are skeptical, like I was, of power conditioning/regenerating devices being a potential for sound quality improvements.

 

1. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that power conditioners are no good for SQ in yours or any other case.

 

2. If there is such a thing as "reverse confirmation bias", claim the intellectual copyright toot sweet!

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, creativepart said:

It took 3-days to receive the PS Audio device. It's a regenerater, not really a filter, though it can do that, too. The thing weighs more than my heavy all-tube Rogue Cronus Magnum II integrated amp and it's only half the size of the amp. What's in this thing? Dragons?

I have no idea about this particular device but there is truth that power supplies/filters/conditioners are judged primarily by weight assuming a good company. Transformers are passive filters having low resistance at 60 Hz while regenerators are essentially active filters -- in  nutshell.

[Rexp]

9 hours ago, creativepart said:

For years, I've been a naysayer when it came to many audio "accessories." I'm not a believer in $11,000 speaker cables, boutique interconnects, nor, any kind of power conditioning. My power is fine thank you.

 

I am a believer in new better amps, dacs, speakers, turntables, cartridges, etc.

 

So, while shopping on Audiogon for possible deals for a new integrated amp I spent some time in A'gon's forum discussions and saw many praising the PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 and what it did for the sound quality for their amps - and how this stopped them from looking for a new amp. This, of course, led to much more research into the device and there seemed to be nearly universal agreement that it actually made a noticeable improvement in, well, everything.

 

Since this thing costs as much as a decent integrated amp then it better do something. I decided to find out for myself. I found a nearly new used PowerPlant3 for about $1000 less than a new one. And, it had a 15-day return policy for any reason. OK, that's low risk.

 

It took 3-days to receive the PS Audio device. It's a regenerater, not really a filter, though it can do that, too. The thing weighs more than my heavy all-tube Rogue Cronus Magnum II integrated amp and it's only half the size of the amp. What's in this thing? Dragons?

 

I wrestled this thing into my rack which required a lot of reorganization. Powered every thing up and expected to hear no changes. I was so positive that it was going to be returned because it made no difference - I had already looked up the return process. All those other reviews had to be from deluded people that wanted to believe it made that much of a difference. Ha! Not me.

 

But... Hello? It made a huge noticeable difference from the very first start of the music. I know you'll ask me what difference it makes - but to tell you would require all those stupid audiophile review words - separation, air, soundstage, clarity. I'd say that the difference is best described as MORE. I was sure it was snake oil, and I don't care for snakes, actually. But it's not. This thing is not going anywhere. I don't think I could go back to the sound without it in my system.

Yes mains power supply makes a big difference for digital playback but for analog? I'm not so sure.

[davide256]

The most worthwhile results are the ones where you expected little but instead got a lot. That rare “trophy” quality experience that fisherman are always seeking.

[PeterG]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:25 PM, creativepart said:

 

But... Hello? It made a huge noticeable difference from the very first start of the music. I know you'll ask me what difference it makes - but to tell you would require all those stupid audiophile review words - separation, air, soundstage, clarity. I'd say that the difference is best described as MORE. I was sure it was snake oil, and I don't care for snakes, actually. But it's not. This thing is not going anywhere. I don't think I could go back to the sound without it in my system.

Very similar to my experience with Nordost QKore/Qbase.  I pushed my dealer off for a year on a home demo, then fell in love in minutes, and was unable to find any shortcomings over a week.  Improving power is one of the few "free lunches" (if you don't count the price tag, haha) in hifi

[GregWormald]

Clean power, IMO, is essential. It's why many high quality equipment manufacturers spend up big when designing and manufacturing power supplies. Of course the power supply to your home can vary in quality too, which is why filters, transformers, regenerators exist.

 

I have an IsoTec filter that made enough difference that I bought it before the trial period was over. When I upgraded turntable, DAC, preamp, and amp to much higher quality units than previously I couldn't be bothered testing everything with-and-without as I figured no matter how good the new stuff dealt with power, a bit cleaner couldn't hurt.

 

And of course "reverse confirmation bias" (or reverse placebo effect, expectation bias) exists. The human brain/mind is extremely powerful and complex.

[Iving]

2 hours ago, GregWormald said:

And of course "reverse confirmation bias" (or reverse placebo effect, expectation bias) exists. The human brain/mind is extremely powerful and complex.

 

In reverse placebo, or nocebo, negative or side effects of treatment occur because the patient expects such. An expectation co-directional with the claimed treatment transpires.

 

As the OP depicts "reverse expectation bias", there was an effect (in one direction as it happened) notwithstanding a null expectation. The effect might have gone the other way (deleterious effect of power conditioner). There can be no bias if there was no expectation. The notion is nonsensical.

 

As firedog suggested, like me, the OP likely didn't know his own tricky mind (as can happen to any of us). There was actually an ordinary expectation bias waiting to happen - notwithstanding the OP's asserted scepticism.

[PeterG]

5 hours ago, Iving said:

As firedog suggested, like me, the OP likely didn't know his own tricky mind (as can happen to any of us). There was actually an ordinary expectation bias waiting to happen - notwithstanding the OP's asserted scepticism.

 

By accident, I discovered that, at least with respect to my Stax headphone energizer, disconnecting and reconnecting the ground wire to my Nordost QKore is like flipping a switch with respect to certain aspects of sound.  I guess that means mind mind is one step trickier again, haha.  

 

Seriously, when you guys will not even entertain the hypothesis, it's not very scientific

[Iving]

2 hours ago, PeterG said:

Seriously, when you guys will not even entertain the hypothesis, it's not very scientific

 

What is meant by "Reverse Expectation Bias"?

 

What is meant by "Reverse"?

We're not talking about nocebo or equivalent - i.e. experiencing a side effect, or negative treatment outcome, from a sugar pill reputed to cause such - where the subjective outcome (distortion) is co-directional with the ostensible/reputed effect.

We're not talking about expecting no change when there is actually one - because the (distorted) subjective experience would be no change when actually there was a change.

We're not talking about experiencing a change when we expected none - that is simply "surprise".

 

What is meant by "Expectation"?

What has accidental discovery to do with Expectation Bias or "Reverse Expectation Bias"? By "Reverse Expectation Bias" we mean serendipitous discovery? The OP's power conditioner improved SQ to his astonishment? A ground wire toggle had an unexpected effect? A scientist in a lab mixes chemical A with chemical B and something unforeseen happens: instead of just saying "unexpected outcome" we refer unnecessarily to "Reverse Expectation Bias" when there was a null expectation or no or expectation in play?

 

What is meant by "Bias"?

If we say anyway that the Expectation was "no change", what (explicit or unconscious) *Bias* exists in "Reverse Expectation Bias"? That "no change" is a distorted explicit belief? ["All those other reviews had to be from deluded people that wanted to believe it made that much of a difference. Ha! Not me."] Well then how could such aberrant psychology generate the *external* (empirical) reference against which that distortion could be evaluated (beneficial effect of power conditioner, effect of ground wire, unexpected lab. event)?

 

Thus "Reverse Expectation Bias" is a nonsense notion: Could you help me find it here?: List of cognitive biases

 

Occam's Razor! or Law of Parsimony – “with competing theories or explanations, the simpler one, for example a model with fewer parameters, is to be preferred”

aka in matters of psychology Lloyd Morgan’s Canon - “In no case is an animal activity to be interpreted in terms of higher psychological processes if it can be fairly interpreted in terms of processes which stand lower in the scale of psychological evolution and development.”.

 

We *are* talking about, simply, "surprise".

or

We *are* talking about ordinary Expectation Bias. The OP's own narrative betrays his actual Expectation Bias obviously - all the effort invested in purchase and setting up his equipment.

Q. If his true expectation was that the power conditioner would have no effect, where did all the energising purchase drive come from?

A = expectation of (SQ) reward whether he realised it or not.

We don't resort to a new-fangled explanation when we have a much more plausible one at our disposal.

 

NB: Whether power conditioners actually work is another matter. I use them myself. Whether I suffer from Expectation Bias germane is an emprical question answered by establishing or failing to establish *objectively* that they have a beneficial effect on SQ in my system. Ultimately that's a pretty tough challenge for the sceptic - because there is always a sensitivity argument.

[PeterG]

1 hour ago, Iving said:

NB: Whether power conditioners actually work is another matter.

An awful lot of smoke here.  Whether power conditioners actually work is the only germane matter.  I encourage all to try them.  I trust your experiences will be similar to the OP's and my own

[creativepart]

Obviously, well, at least to me, the title of the thread is a very tongue in check reference.

 

Chill out social scientists. It's just a dumb thread title not my doctorate thesis topic.

[creativepart]

Circling back... I'm still loving the effect the PS Audio Stellar PowerPlant 3 is having in my system. In fact, the more I listen the more impressed I am. Highly recommended - I can't state it's the PS Audio product specifically or more broadly the overall effect of power regeneration and filtering in general. But if you're on the fence about spending to improve your system's power quality my experience is that it's worth the investment.

[Calvin & Hobbes]

On 6/25/2022 at 6:56 PM, Rexp said:

Yes mains power supply makes a big difference for digital playback but for analog? I'm not so sure.

I've been surprised to hear that as well with cleaner power making a bigger perceived difference for me on digital playback than for analog, but it is what it is.

[fas42]

The subjective qualities of digital playback are very strongly influenced by noise factors - it's the nature of the beast. One can be sloppy with optimising analogue in this regard; which is why it has taken soooo long for manufacturers and audiophiles to understand that this is critical - and, still learning, .

[Calvin & Hobbes]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

The subjective qualities of digital playback are very strongly influenced by noise factors - it's the nature of the beast. One can be sloppy with optimising analogue in this regard; which is why it has taken soooo long for manufacturers and audiophiles to understand that this is critical - and, still learning, .

I was recently comparing three power cords: Shunyata Venom V14, Supra LoRad, Shunyata Venom V10 NR. It was very difficult to determine the sound quality impact of the different cords when used on a Lehmann Black Cube SE phono preamp, but the audible differences were immediately noticeable when the cords were used on a Denafrips Pontus II DAC.

[PeterG]

8 hours ago, Calvin & Hobbes said:

I was recently comparing three power cords: Shunyata Venom V14, Supra LoRad, Shunyata Venom V10 NR. It was very difficult to determine the sound quality impact of the different cords when used on a Lehmann Black Cube SE phono preamp, but the audible differences were immediately noticeable when the cords were used on a Denafrips Pontus II DAC.

I agree that upgrading power cords is sometimes a great improvement, sometimes not worthwhile, and the only way to know is through trial.  I've ended up with a Nordost Frey 2 from my QBase to wall, and stock power cables into the QBase

[Calvin & Hobbes]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:10 AM, PeterG said:

I agree that upgrading power cords is sometimes a great improvement, sometimes not worthwhile, and the only way to know is through trial.  I've ended up with a Nordost Frey 2 from my QBase to wall, and stock power cables into the QBase

I'm interested in trying out a Nordost power cord at some point as well. I got a pair of Nordost Flatline speaker cables back in the 90s that is still working well in my system.