We've got war in Europe..

[Priaptor]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

There is little in the world that is 100% black or white. People on both sides get caught up in the simplistic thinking that issues or countries are all good or all bad, etc. The fact that the US has done bad things or aided dictators when it was advantageous, doesn't make the US a fountain of evil, etc. The world is a complicated place. Sometimes deals with the devil have to be made.

The trick is limiting them to only when necessary, and using those same deals to limit the influence and power of the devils. 

Stalin was a horrible dictator and murderer; almost as bad as Hitler in some ways. That doesn't mean the Allies were wrong to align with him in WWII. 

Couldn’t agree more

 

The problem is in this crazy world, to align the USA, through insidious and specious opinions like The Guardian is an absurdity. 

[DuckToller]

20 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

As is typical of The Guardian, hardly an unbiased POV, it conflates and confabulates to make points with mutually exclusive times and wars in history to come up with half ass and distorted conclusions drawing on the same. I get the current progressive woke world view spewing this propaganda, but thankfully, people are waking up to this nonsense.

 

Now, after reading the article, despite what I say above, doesn't mean there is no legitimacy in what the author claims. Unfortunately the whole of the article is just garbage, IMHO

Priaptor, my friendly, Woke-cooked meat of Guardian columnists gouting arch-friend, it was as always a pleasure to throw you a bite.
Even though I'm always impressed by your powerful and dynamic way of expressing yourself, I don't really understand the effort you put into expressing that you're not interested in reflecting on a Guardian opinion because of your existing bias. That can be done much more efficiently ... and who doesn't know ... 🥱

 

[bogi]

Something from practical life now - on the border of my country (Google translate):
https://dennikn-sk.translate.goog/2741365/na-hranici-ukazalo-slovensko-solidaritu-sklady-s-pomocou-su-plne-matovic-slubil-ukrajincom-davky-aj-pracovne-povolenie/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

Poland already received more than 100 000 Ukrainians.

[DuckToller]

2 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

Do you have any examples of successful negotiations with a bully like Putin?

I'd say it worked for decades with until it didn't ...

[DuckToller]

Another opinion piece that doesn't shy from some painful truth

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/26/timidity-greed-and-sloth-why-the-west-always-loses-to-putin

[Jud]

Long, thorough, excellent analytic piece on the war and its causes (bottom line: Putin wants a Russia-friendly government in Ukraine or even to make it part of the Russian Federation):

 

https://acoup.blog/2022/02/25/miscellanea-understanding-the-war-in-ukraine/?fbclid=IwAR3qKN_Fus6CoM4U4dBusHpegZlLz3ZFdrG0WeFg5tXZtuPwr2zBIavrL6k

[Summit]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

Most of us are fairly educated here. Enough to recognize conflation and non-valid argument points when we see them.

 

You mean the same people who chose Donald Duck for POTUS and still think that the election was stolen? An American president that praising Putin's invasion strategies.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/24/politics/donald-trump-praises-putin/index.html 

[DuckToller]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Long, thorough, excellent analytic piece on the war and its causes (bottom line: Putin wants a Russia-friendly government in Ukraine or even to make it part of the Russian Federation):

 

https://acoup.blog/2022/02/25/miscellanea-understanding-the-war-in-ukraine/?fbclid=IwAR3qKN_Fus6CoM4U4dBusHpegZlLz3ZFdrG0WeFg5tXZtuPwr2zBIavrL6k

 

"Consequently, the policy has always been to avoid any situation in which two nuclear powers are trading conventional fire whenever possible; in my view that policy is wise and should be kept to (though doing so likely demands, in this case, extracting considerable non-military punishment on Putin to discourage further efforts that might require a NATO response)"
...
" Here I want to caution you: a lot of the information you will see over the next few days is coming through the fog of war. Some of it will be intentional disinformation. No one in the media or on social media really has any kind of precise view of what is going on. Even the intelligence agencies – for Russia, Ukraine but also NATO countries – are likely struggling to get a firm grasp on what is happening where"
 

He's digging deep into the reasons for creating that war on the Russian side. What's mainly getting lost is the developments on the other side of the confrontation.
It is out of question to believe anything about a fascist regime in the Ukraine from a regime that aims to supports the far right in European democracies in order to destabilze them.
However, claims of oligarchy, corruption and (ultra nationalist right wing influence) since the Maidan events were still considered as most important stumbling blocks for the Ukrainian society's way on the road to freedom & prosperity.

Given this, democratic elected leadership is perhaps likely to create fears on both sides of the border ... and may be taken into account when we reflect upon the question why the Western support had been only half-baked for many years.

Here are 2 snippets (auto-translated) taken from an article in the conservative German newspaper "Sueddeutsche Zeitung" (23.09.2021 - Ukraine - Haus ohne Fundament  - House without foundation).
" It is true that the EU is "well aware of the numerous connections between oligarchs, high-ranking officials, the government, the parliament, the judiciary and state-owned companies. Only: nothing followed from it. In his homeland of Estonia, Juhan Parts was first chief auditor, then prime minister, and finally minister of economics. Today, he is a member of the European Court of Auditors and audits both Ukraine and the countries of the Western Balkans. In Ukraine, Parts estimates that oligarchs and people associated with them have laundered "billions" of ill-gotten money in the EU, whether by buying real estate or in EU banks"

 

Interestingly, Mr. Parts aimed then on measures that are now used to put pressure on Putin/Russia.
What are the ´Western values" in that miserable power game and who defines the red lines ?
I can't avoid the impression that economic interests have commanded the geo-strategies for the Ukraine and Russia far more than the idealistic/humanistic aspects of wealth, safety and prosperity of Ukrainian people.
It is quite bizarre and I need to admit that my trust zone for Europena/Western civilization does erode day by day ... which dosen't mean at all that I have any sympathy on waremongering Putin or the Russian warheads.

"Despite this, the report says, there is "no entry ban to the EU for Ukrainians suspected of grand corruption" and no measures to "prevent them from having access to their assets in the EU," in plain language; freezing bank accounts or seizing real estate. Here, the EU Commission needs to act urgently with EU countries and international partners, . "If the political will is there, something could happen quickly here," says Parts"

[davide256]

 

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

I'd say it worked for decades with until it didn't ...

 

yea, Trump sure screwed that up as Putin's "useful idiot".

[Priaptor]

5 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

You mean the same people who chose Donald Duck for POTUS and still think that the election was stolen? An American president that praising Putin's invasion strategies.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/24/politics/donald-trump-praises-putin/index.html 

You 

 

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Long, thorough, excellent analytic piece on the war and its causes (bottom line: Putin wants a Russia-friendly government in Ukraine or even to make it part of the Russian Federation):

 

https://acoup.blog/2022/02/25/miscellanea-understanding-the-war-in-ukraine/?fbclid=IwAR3qKN_Fus6CoM4U4dBusHpegZlLz3ZFdrG0WeFg5tXZtuPwr2zBIavrL6k

Jud,

 

Thanks for that. Excellent opinion piece and very enlightening. While I get the author’s perspective about the mouthpieces on the left and right being Putin supporters and comparing them to Father Coughlin, IMO, these mouthpieces today are fairly different but by no means immune to harsh criticism. Father Coughlin was a true miscreant in his beliefs whereas today’s mouthpieces, are selling a political narrative to counter the other side’s POV with little conviction for the true enemy, which in this case is Putin. It would be a real stretch to equate them. However, those vocal enough to make the comments they have deserve whatever scorn they have earned.

 

This is truly a great read that we all should read. 

 

Thanks 

[fas42]

Putin is a dead man walking.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Good to see NATO countries now actively supporting Ukraine with weapons supply. 

 

Even if Russia manages in capturing the capital and "overthrowing" the government, how will it ever control Ukraine? With a population of 44 million, it is impossible to imagine how Ukraine would be "administered" without active collaboration from Ukrainians (police, administration, etc..). This looks highly unlikely, short of massive population deportations/Russian "colonization", and is ultimately the sign of Putin's insanity. 

 

 

[Michaelb4]

US Politics circa 1971 or maybe now. I would not expect a rational response, Trump sees this as an opportunity.  
 

 

[DuckToller]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Good to see NATO countries now actively supporting Ukraine with weapons supply. 

 

Even if Russia manages in capturing the capital and "overthrowing" the government, how will it ever control Ukraine? With a population of 44 million, it is impossible to imagine how Ukraine would be "administered" without active collaboration from Ukrainians (police, administration, etc..). This looks highly unlikely, short of massive population deportations/Russian "colonization", and is ultimately the sign of Putin's insanity. 

 

 

You have a very valid point here, that is - in my view - the reason why John Mearsheimer talks about the destruction of the Ukraine as the goal for Russia.
Honestly, do you believe this POC/wisdom didn't exist in autumn 2021 ???

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

32 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

You have a very valid point here, that is - in my view - the reason why John Mearsheimer talks about the destruction of the Ukraine as the goal for Russia.
Honestly, do you believe this POC/wisdom didn't exist in autumn 2021 ???

 

It seems that the conventional wisdom of western politicians was that Putin was bluffing (looking for recognition, etc...) and that in spite of the massive troop build up some form of settlement would be found. Which one? Not very clear, and Mearsheimer's suggestion that Ukraine be a "neutral buffer"does not take into account the fact that Ukraine itself is looking westward. 

[DuckToller]

5 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Not very clear, and Mearsheimer's suggestion that Ukraine be a "neutral buffer"does not take into account the fact that Ukraine itself is looking westward. 

What you're saying is that he didn't take Ukrainian interests into account?

I wonder as we'll how he passed his high school diploma before attending West Point...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

 

And do somehow think you are different? Sitting on your couch and posting about your offended morality means zip.

Have you actively done anything to help people in Africa or India or elsewhere?

If not, you have no claim to moral/ethical superiority over the people your are condemning.

 

Actually I have friends in both, over at least 40 years. So yes yes yes and YES I have done tons to help both people from Africa and India. I've been there, eat there, planted food there and educated in both places.

 

One of the very reasons why I mentioned each place....in addition to Thailand, Cambodia, Japan and the Philippines. 

 

This message board provides a glaring example of the ills of the world and the fake compassion of those in it. As a Registered Nurse I've saved more lived with my hands than likely the combined lot of the people on this board. Compassion, I know it, I live it, I teach it, I give it, I understand it and I know everyone in this world needs it....even the families of those 5.4 million dead in the Congo. I don't Cherry pick and follow the media like a blind man.

 

You people talk about, most people here being educated...I see no signs of an educated mind. I see no signs of a free self thinking mind, I see not signs of true heart felt love or compassion for life. All I see it the reverberation of hate that is expressed in the media. Sickening to the core....but be that as it may, I have worked 12hrs/day for countless days without meals to save the lives of people like you....imagine that. Looking up at a man that you have contempt for and watching him work tirelessly to save your life. 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

14 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

What you're saying is that he didn't take Ukrainian interests into account?

I wonder as we'll how he passed his high school diploma before attending West Point...

 

His focus is US policy. But it's a bit late now to push away Ex-soviet republics that have chosen a "democratic" path (unlike Bielaruss, for example). Mearsheimer may believe that Europe is no longer of strategic interest for the US, but it is hard to dismiss the European aspiration of countries like Ukraine. Those aspirations are not fabricated by US policy and cannot be switched on/off... 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

 

And do somehow think you are different? Sitting on your couch and posting about your offended morality means zip.

Have you actively done anything to help people in Africa or India or elsewhere?

If not, you have no claim to moral/ethical superiority over the people your are condemning.

 

Moral / Ethical superiority.

 

No I embrace morality, I claim no moral superiority over others, we all have the ability to follow our moral compass. I follow mine, even if it takes me to uncomfortable places. I'm not morally superior I am man enough to stand in the face of morality and apply the moral right thing to do to everyone.

 

Ethical superiority, well thats something that I do claim....health care workers are on a different level when it comes to ethics. As a patient advocate I must always hold myself to extreme ethical standards as well as others. When you look at a RN you had better believe you are looking at someone who prides themselves of being ethical. In fact as an RN we are held legally to the highest ethical standards by the state which provides our licence.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

If you follow Mearsheimer's logic, perhaps the US should "abandon" Taiwan for the sake of a stronger partnership with China. Would that be acceptable? 

[fas42]

We're moving into times when, finally, the welfare of people in a global sense is becoming more important than the status of countries - some places are taking longer to realise this; so, there might have to be a few solid kicks to the side of the head, for those who are not, ahem, awake to this ...

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

We're moving into times when, finally, the welfare of people in a global sense is becoming more important than the status of countries - some places are taking longer to realise this; so, there might have to be a few solid kicks to the side of the head, for those who are not, ahem, awake to this ...

 

Apparently not on a "Global" sense but only on a mass media directed sense. There are parts of the "Globe" that get ignored.

 

Its predictable/funny/sad all at the same time to watch people puppet and parrot what they are told.

 

Now lets get back to hating Putin like we are told to do....

[kumakuma]

46 minutes ago, Dynobot said:

 

Actually I have friends in both, over at least 40 years. So yes yes yes and YES I have done tons to help both people from Africa and India. I've been there, eat there, planted food there and educated in both places.

 

One of the very reasons why I mentioned each place....in addition to Thailand, Cambodia, Japan and the Philippines. 

 

This message board provides a glaring example of the ills of the world and the fake compassion of those in it. As a Registered Nurse I've saved more lived with my hands than likely the combined lot of the people on this board. Compassion, I know it, I live it, I teach it, I give it, I understand it and I know everyone in this world needs it....even the families of those 5.4 million dead in the Congo. I don't Cherry pick and follow the media like a blind man.

 

You people talk about, most people here being educated...I see no signs of an educated mind. I see no signs of a free self thinking mind, I see not signs of true heart felt love or compassion for life. All I see it the reverberation of hate that is expressed in the media. Sickening to the core....but be that as it may, I have worked 12hrs/day for countless days without meals to save the lives of people like you....imagine that. Looking up at a man that you have contempt for and watching him work tirelessly to save your life. 

 

 

First, thank you for your service, especially over the last two years.

 

However, with all due respect, I don't believe you can judge how compassionate others are or what they may be doing to make the world a better place based on a few posts they have made to an Internet forum.

[opus101]

2 hours ago, Priaptor said:

This is truly a great read that we all should read. 

 

I read a large amount of it, I'd not say 'truly great' as its rather skewed in my estimation. A major part missing is J.J.Mearsheimer's 'Primrose path' - i.e. the considerable role 'The West' has in Ukraine, especially the 2014 Maidan coup and aftermath.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

First, thank you for your service, especially over the last two years.

 

However, with all due respect, I don't believe you can judge how compassionate others are or what they may be doing to make the world a better place based on a few posts they have made to an Internet forum.

 

I don't judge...I gave opportunities for people to show compassion....if you did, you did....if you didn't you didn't.

 

I mentioned other places in the world with hopes someone would display some compassion and caring for others by saying 'anything' of a kind and caring nature...that was the opportunity.

 

Basically, it is what it is....and you are welcome..