Article: The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup: Introduction, Installation & Initial Listen

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, PeterG said:

4kW or 40kW?  If 4, please share (lots) more details.  Thanks!

4, but (dirty little secret) heat is in-floor radiant from a tankless propane boiler and hot water is from the same boiler. The radiant heat (6 zones) is all run by 6 Nest thermostats that have an algorithm specifically for in-floor radiant heat. The algorithm takes care of everything; I told it what temperature I wanted in each zone 4 years ago and haven’t had to touch anything since.  AC though plus all appliances are electric (including an induction cooktop, which is fabulous - my wife, an excellent cook, wouldn’t trade it for anything).

 

The windows have permanent awnings angled and sized to let sun in during winter and shade the inside in summer. Insulation is a combination of closed cell foam and blown-in.

 

Perhaps the most important feature is attention to detail. The house is very tight: During spring winds that can reach 60 mph out of a clear sky, if you weren’t looking outside you wouldn’t notice. (There’s a heat/air exchange system that makes sure the house stays comfortable while keeping the air fresh.)

 

 

 

[austinpop]

15 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Maybe the system is using it?

 

I've tried the obvious things.  Will let you know what I find.

[austinpop]

23 hours ago, astrotoy said:

However, I could not hear any effect on my audio system either time.

 

53 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

Never once thought about how the system might affect the sonics of my audio system.

 

That's good, and my hope is to find little to differentiate SQ-wise between the 3 sources of power: grid, PV, and battery. However, it will be good to confirm this in  a controlled manner.

 

For those with existing systems, see if you can easily flip between panels and grid (and battery, if you have it), either using software control, or flipping breakers. If so, you can do the comparison with very short delays between modes.

 

I'm curious to hear what your find.

[jcbenten]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

"... The house is very tight: During spring winds that can reach 60 mph out of a clear sky, if you weren’t looking outside you wouldn’t notice...

 

 

 

I assume it is dry there...At least one house in my neighborhood was 0-valued due to mold and another two doors down had the same issue but caught in time.  The closer neighbor mentioned they had to open the house up a bit to breathe.

 

Sorry for the off  topic...

 

chris

[Foggie]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:28 AM, AudioDoctor said:

The MN Winters are exactly why I insist on having a wood burning fireplace in my house. Sure it's nice and cozy to sit around in the winter, but the worst case scenario we have heat.

A a big increase is coming this winter for natural gas  - which is great cuz it doesn't get cold here 🙄. 

https://www.kare11.com/article/weather/heating-costs-expected-to-skyrocket-this-winter/89-7909e445-ea65-47e0-8ce4-8c92c499ecb1

[Mike27]

I eagerly await your next report. I’m hoping the inverters don’t put garbage on the AC line. Not just for audio’s sake, but also RF communications. I’m hoping to put up a modest ham antenna in retirement. New sunspot cycle and all that. It would be of great interest to me if you could check weak AM radio signals before & after!

 

Very good info so far. Thanks!

[Mike Rubin]

We have a veritable industrial power plant on our roof, installed before battery backup was available, and run it through two ABB commercial quality inverters.  I was led to believe that it would add all kinds of noise to my audio systems, so we ran some new circuits right after we installed the panels, but I still have the usual household electrical stressors around here: refrigerator, clothes dryer, dimmer circuits, and the other electrical-noise-generating stuff you'd expect, mostly on the original wiring.

 

I have found, though, that, at least with my not-highest-end systems and a fairly large number of mostly undedicated circuits, my enjoyment of music hasn't been affected by being off the grid during daylight hours.  I use a PS Audio PerfectWave PowerPlant 10 in my main system and a PS Audio Dectets for my desktop and basement, and I am sure they have helped.  I suspect that noise, if it's at levels that would disturb others, would be minimized even to a greater degree by more modern power conditioners. 

From my perspective, solar has been a really worthwhile investment and, in conjunction with the house rewiring that we did, there hasn't been an audio penalty that I can hear.  Of course, YMMV, but I wasn't surprised at AustinPop's conclusion that he could live with the solar panels' noise levels.

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, Foggie said:

A a big increase is coming this winter for natural gas  - which is great cuz it doesn't get cold here 🙄. 

https://www.kare11.com/article/weather/heating-costs-expected-to-skyrocket-this-winter/89-7909e445-ea65-47e0-8ce4-8c92c499ecb1

 

Great... its not like I don't heat or cook with gas...

[Jud]

2 hours ago, jcbenten said:

I assume it is dry there...At least one house in my neighborhood was 0-valued due to mold and another two doors down had the same issue but caught in time.  The closer neighbor mentioned they had to open the house up a bit to breathe.

 

Sorry for the off  topic...

 

chris

Typical humidity is around 15%. But vapor barriers are utilized where appropriate, and I noted the air exchange system earlier.

 

Rather than impose on @austinpop’s very interesting thread any further, may I suggest anyone interested start a thread in the Off Topic section or send me a private message?

[AudioDoctor]

I am sitting here thinking about this. We have been thinking about putting solar panels on the roof for a while now, and I was thinking why not put the house on the solar circuit, and use another dedicated circuit for the audio system and separate the two? Then, while not being able to listen to music during a power outage, you wouldn't have any potential sound quality issues to worry about either.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

I am sitting here thinking about this. We have been thinking about putting solar panels on the roof for a while now, and I was thinking why not put the house on the solar circuit, and use another dedicated circuit for the audio system and separate the two? Then, while not being able to listen to music during a power outage, you wouldn't have any potential sound quality issues to worry about either.

I can’t see the switch that flips from grid to solar during an outage causing audio issues, unless you’re Michael Fremer. If the power goes out, listening to music is a nice way to pass the time.

[AudioDoctor]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

I can’t see the switch that flips from grid to solar during an outage causing audio issues, unless you’re Michael Fremer. If the power goes out, listening to music is a nice way to pass the time.

 

I am spitballing ideas here, but it seems to me that separating the two would be the best of both worlds. Additionally, unless you are getting enough energy to refill your batteries every day, then during a power outage I think being smart about power usage would be a good idea as storms get crazier and times to fix damage gets longer. A Class A Pass Amp, even if its the smallest one, would probably drain batteries in no time. But for that brief glorious amount of time, we would also be warm...

 

edit: Here in the frozen north, on even a sunny winter day, we probably wouldn't get enough sunlight to refill batteries every day, as our amount of sunshine is very limited that time of the year.

 

edit 2: I have a personal weather station in my backyard that has a battery recharged by a small solar panel in it, I already know how much solar energy I would get, approximately, through the day and I can also see that amount dropping significantly already.

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I am spitballing ideas here, but it seems to me that separating the two would be the best of both worlds. Additionally, unless you are getting enough energy to refill your batteries every day, then during a power outage I think being smart about power usage would be a good idea as storms get crazier and times to fix damage gets longer. A Class A Pass Amp, even if its the smallest one, would probably drain batteries in no time. But for that brief glorious amount of time, we would also be warm...

 

edit: Here in the frozen north, on even a sunny winter day, we probably wouldn't get enough sunlight to refill batteries every day, as our amount of sunshine is very limited that time of the year.

 

edit 2: I have a personal weather station in my backyard that has a battery recharged by a small solar panel in it, I already know how much solar energy I would get, approximately, through the day and I can also see that amount dropping significantly already.

Moar panels! Moar power! 😉

 

This seems to me like a great argument for a set of really good Class D monoblocks. I love Pass but have also heard Class D sounding terrific.

[AudioDoctor]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

Moar panels! Moar power! 😉

 

This seems to me like a great argument for a set of really good Class D monoblocks. I love Pass but have also heard Class D sounding terrific.

 

I would love to be able to fit more panels, but that would mean cutting down the big beautiful trees that call our backyard home. Both my wife and I don't want to do that as it seems a little counter productive.

 

Allegedly the new Marantz Model 30, which while having a discrete (HDAM) front end, has a Class D Hypex module output, and sounds wonderful... I have not heard one personally, though.

[Jud]

12 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I would love to be able to fit more panels, but that would mean cutting down the big beautiful trees that call our backyard home. Both my wife and I don't want to do that as it seems a little counter productive.

Purely joking.

 

12 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Allegedly the new Marantz Model 30, which while having a discrete (HDAM) front end, has a Class D Hypex module output, and sounds wonderful... I have not heard one personally, though.

 

Was thinking along the lines of Purifi from someone like Nord - would probably be cheaper and might sound better.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Of course, YMMV, but I wasn't surprised at AustinPop's conclusion that he could live with the solar panels' noise levels.

 

Well, I haven't concluded that yet. That is one of the experiments I've got lined up!

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

I am sitting here thinking about this. We have been thinking about putting solar panels on the roof for a while now, and I was thinking why not put the house on the solar circuit, and use another dedicated circuit for the audio system and separate the two? Then, while not being able to listen to music during a power outage, you wouldn't have any potential sound quality issues to worry about either.

 

Yes, that was the safe option I considered, by putting the audio circuit(s) on a bypass panel that is only powered directly by the grid.

 

But where's the fun in "safe!" 😎

[austinpop]

56 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I am spitballing ideas here, but it seems to me that separating the two would be the best of both worlds. Additionally, unless you are getting enough energy to refill your batteries every day, then during a power outage I think being smart about power usage would be a good idea as storms get crazier and times to fix damage gets longer. A Class A Pass Amp, even if its the smallest one, would probably drain batteries in no time. But for that brief glorious amount of time, we would also be warm...

 

There are so many considerations, and this is why I wrote this article -- to tease apart the audio considerations from the functional ones. Just as an aside, and I expect this is well known in this crowd, a solar installation without battery backup is not functional during a power outage. Since there is nowhere for panel generation to go other than the house, utilities require PV panels to turn off during an outage, so as not to zap hardworking lines people working to restore power.

 

With regard to audio considerations, there are several use cases:

• During normal operation, instantaneous power to the audio circuits flowing from one, or a combination of:
  • the grid,
  • PV panels, or
  • Batteries.
• During a power outage, instantaneous power to the audio circuits flowing from one, or a combination of:
  • PV panels or
  • Batteries.

I'm personally not sure to what extent I would be listening to audio during an outage, certainly not with Class A's!

 

Still, the experiments I have postulated apply to both. How does SQ differ when instantaneous power to the audio gear is flowing from each of:

• the grid,
• PV panels, or
• Batteries?

Some anecdotal posts here have already indicated -- no audible difference. I will see what my listening tests tell me. Perhaps the same. Perhaps better with batteries? Wouldn't that be something!

[AudioDoctor]

25 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Some anecdotal posts here have already indicated -- no audible difference. I will see what my listening tests tell me. Perhaps the same. Perhaps better with batteries? Wouldn't that be something!

 

I excitedly await your thoughts.

[cjf]

Hello @austinpopand great article.

 

I was curious of a few details on the 12kW system you described. Was this figure based on your daily usage and if so did you use your Pre Solar utility bill averaged out over several months or more to come up with this size system for your house?

 

I'm also curious to know what the expected run time is of the system powering the home after grid power goes out?

 

I suspect that at some point in the near future I may be considering a full solar setup without grid to power a house I plan to build located deep in the Colorado wilderness. There is grid power available to my 20acre parcel there but based on a recent estimate from the power company it will cost about $20K to pull a line about 700ft onto the property. This is a tough pill to swallow when Solar power potential in that area is very high also. My concerns with a full solar only setup though have always been a big question mark due to this crazy audio hobby of ours. One fear being how big of a system it would take to maintain the usage of my current system without compromises and if that dollar figure would far exceed the cost to just have grid power pulled onto my land.

 

Anyway, thanks for the write up of your journey, it was interesting to read.

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, cjf said:

plan to build located deep in the Colorado wilderness.

I’m jealous 😳

[cjf]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m jealous 😳

Haha...total population..1,200. I'm assuming they dont count all the critters in that number though 🙂

 

 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, cjf said:

Hello @austinpopand great article.

 

I was curious of a few details on the 12kW system you described. Was this figure based on your daily usage and if so did you use your Pre Solar utility bill averaged out over several months or more to come up with this size system for your house?

 

I'm also curious to know what the expected run time is of the system powering the home after grid power goes out?

 

All of this is part of the sizing process you would go through when you solicit bids. You can always give the solar contractor just the info they ask for - usually a recent utility statement with usage data. But I would assert that AS members are curious and motivated enough to do their own research.

 

Check your account info on your utility provider. If it's like mine, they should have usage data for the last 12-24 months. Crunch the data to get at least a rough estimate of:

1. your ave/max daily consumption in kWh during different periods:
   • in summer when your AC is running the most
   • in winter when your heat is running the most
   • in spring/fall, when neither is, when you should have the least daily consumption.
2. your average annual consumption in kWh. You can use this to compare against solar designs, as all such designs will give you an estimated annual solar production.
3. your average monthly electric bill. 

These data can help you - both with ROI/break-even analysis of cost, as well as sizing:

• for example, how does your battery capacity match your average daily consumption? This will give you an estimate of your outage resilience.

A local solar contractor will customize a bid for your situation, and you can iterate. Tesla, to keep costs low, offers systems only in 4 fixed sizes: 4.25kW, 8.5kW, 12.75kW, and 17kW. Although even that isn't strictly true, as it is possible to pick a size and then ask for additional panels. The more you educate yourself, the better prepared you will be. Well, obviously!

 

1 hour ago, cjf said:

I suspect that at some point in the near future I may be considering a full solar setup without grid to power a house I plan to build located deep in the Colorado wilderness. There is grid power available to my 20acre parcel there but based on a recent estimate from the power company it will cost about $20K to pull a line about 700ft onto the property. This is a tough pill to swallow when Solar power potential in that area is very high also. My concerns with a full solar only setup though have always been a big question mark due to this crazy audio hobby of ours. One fear being how big of a system it would take to maintain the usage of my current system without compromises and if that dollar figure would far exceed the cost to just have grid power pulled onto my land.

 

 

 

Nice!

 

What you're suggesting is an off-grid installation, and there are different considerations for these. On the one hand, not having to satisfy a utility about the size and design of your system is liberating. However, you also have to be more resilient - there is no grid to supply energy if your panels aren't producing in the dark of winter, and your batteries are depleted. I don't claim to know how to size this, so it's worth researching off-grid systems. You will also want to have a generator as an alternate source of power for complete resilience.

 

Whether or not this power is clean enough for audio is definitely a question. I worry most about the generator.

[LowOrbit]

Final phase of audio sq evaluation - earthing the sun?

[jcbenten]

10 hours ago, cjf said:

Hello @austinpopand great article.

 

I was curious of a few details on the 12kW system you described. Was this figure based on your daily usage and if so did you use your Pre Solar utility bill averaged out over several months or more to come up with this size system for your house?

 

I'm also curious to know what the expected run time is of the system powering the home after grid power goes out?

 

I suspect that at some point in the near future I may be considering a full solar setup without grid to power a house I plan to build located deep in the Colorado wilderness. There is grid power available to my 20acre parcel there but based on a recent estimate from the power company it will cost about $20K to pull a line about 700ft onto the property. This is a tough pill to swallow when Solar power potential in that area is very high also. My concerns with a full solar only setup though have always been a big question mark due to this crazy audio hobby of ours. One fear being how big of a system it would take to maintain the usage of my current system without compromises and if that dollar figure would far exceed the cost to just have grid power pulled onto my land.

 

Anyway, thanks for the write up of your journey, it was interesting to read.

 

About 5-6 years ago, prior to the Powerwall/battery storage units came out,  I met with a couple of the solar providers during an open house of my electric co-op.  Since I am on propane for heat, I only really use electric for the AC and appliances (dryer is electric), they targeted 100% for winter/cooler month and 50-60% of the summer months.  Their reasoning is not to over generate because the utility buys back at wholesale costs (~$0.03) vs the my cost (~$0.11) and the goal was to minimize capital costs.  

 

Now I think the economics have changed due to the rise of the battery storage and the cost of going down like we did during the storm last winter (notifications for cost increases have gone out to the consumer) and due to utilities shutting down coal/gas plants to use solar and wind. I would target 100% generation and a week of storage.  If I could talk my wife into it, I would do solar and a couple of wind hydrofoils and battery packs.  Oh, and a hybrid F150 with 7KW powerpack.