Best Ethernet Cards for Streaming

[Jud]

58 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Ethernet is transformer isolated, it is considered one of the possible methods of doing galvanic isolation. Another would be capacitive isolation which is sometimes used for things like USB. Third would be optical isolation.

 

So you cannot have things like ground currents flowing through copper ethernet, as long as you don't spoil it with shielded cables (which should never be used in audio environments).

 

 

Shielded cables, period, or shielded Ethernet cables?

 

And by shielded, are we talking exclusively about shielding connected to ground at both ends?

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

Shielded cables, period, or shielded Ethernet cables?

 

Shielded ethernet cables... STP/SFTP.

 

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

And by shielded, are we talking exclusively about shielding connected to ground at both ends?

 

That is the only specification compliant shielded type. I would never recommend to use any non-spec compliant cable. I know there are many "ethernet" cables, just like there are many "USB" cables, that would never pass a certification test.

 

[fas42]

Unfortunately, certification to meet some standard completely unrelated to audio sound quality, when used on a system with components that are not engineered as well as they should be, is no guarantee of anything ... it might make you feel warm and cosy, using 'proper stuff!"; but SQ may very well suffer unless other measures are taken to improve the integrity of the chain, elsewhere.

[TomJ]

12 hours ago, Exocer said:

Hey, I thought the thread was going well initially. Thanks for your contribution. You helped me validate why I didn't like the sorta popular TP-Link card 😀.

 

You said something a few pages back about discrete transformers. How would you visually identify if a card has poorer power management than another?

Ok, back to the main topic 😅

 

You can identify discrete transformers on the board as little black bricks and the count of them correlates with the number of ports of the nic: 

It is not necessarily said that discrete transformers are better than those integrated into the RJ45 jack, but I have a better feeling and experience with them.

 

The number of capacitors, coils and voltage regulators can be seen as a first indication of the effort required for the power supply.

[Miska]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

Unfortunately, certification to meet some standard completely unrelated to audio sound quality

 

Network doesn't have "sound quality", it has only functional quality that can be objectively assessed.

 

[TomJ]

55 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Network doesn't have "sound quality", it has only functional quality that can be objectively assessed.

 

But Ethernet can influence sound quality, that’s what we are talking about and should be common sense of all participants  in this thread. 
If you will discuss  if Ethernet influence the sound, then it should be done in an other thread.

The discussion here should be how it influence the sound.

[fas42]

The fundamental here is that nearly all audio systems, meaning the components and/or the cables, etc, linking the parts, are not engineered or specified well enough to prevent electrical noise from impacting the behaviour of the circuitry to the point that it's audible - everyone who spends inordinate amounts of time trying to eliminate this, or 'adjust' it so that its effect is more pleasant to the ear, knows what a tortured path this is.

 

The correct solution is to understand exactly where the weaknesses are, and to improve the integrity of those areas. But this is not done, by those who manufacture the items - most are just fooling around, trying this and that, until something that is acceptable to the ears emerges. Real progress will only occur when the industry overall accepts what the situation is, investigates it properly, and then builds everything well enough so that the problems completely go away ...

[One and a half]

On 10/18/2021 at 2:11 PM, Jud said:

 

My non-expert layperson's impression is that the answer is anything that doesn't flip a bit isn't "transmitted" through the conversions in the sense of being present on the other side of those conversions.

 

I think however that you're rightly concerned about PSU noise getting into the system, and Chris is also right in being concerned about the noise of the destination converter itself.

 

Further thoughts on this, and I was confusing Cabled Ethernet with Optical. Cabled Ethernet of course can transmit noise either at the source, endpoint or the transmission along the way through induction of spikes. Transformers built into NICs are only a partial solution, since all transformers have capacitance between windings that unwanted signal can cross. .That is unless they have a specific filter design employed to only work in the narrow band where Ethernet operates. This can be complex, it's easier to filter out unwanted after the transformers, and for this established filters work, just how well depends on the design, ans @TomJ will most likely discover.

 

Ethernet Isolation devices (like the Baaske)  are just transformers, they isolate the load from the source as far as 4000V + are concerned, but a few mv of common mode noise can still pass to the other side.

 

Optical unwanted (noise) immunity through the cable only works from the source to destination, with no hops. For Audio that would be a server with a fibre NIC and an endpoint like a Lumin X1. 

 

Agreed, totally as soon as the optical is translated at the source or destination, the effects of conversion have a drastic impact on power supplies picked up by the destination's audio components.  There needs to be a reason why the likes of Qobuz, Tidal transmissions sound the way they do (unengaging, devoid of life IMHO) compared to playing a local file (presuming, the same mastering/source).

[TomJ]

21 hours ago, fas42 said:

The correct solution is to understand exactly where the weaknesses are, and to improve the integrity of those areas. But this is not done, by those who manufacture the items - most are just fooling around, trying this and that, until something that is acceptable to the ears emerges. Real progress will only occur when the industry overall accepts what the situation is, investigates it properly, and then builds everything well enough so that the problems completely go away ...

I also find this whole trail and error method of the whole industry extremely annoying and partly unprofessional. Positive results are mostly pure products of chance. The mysterization of the whole matter, which is usually done intentionally, is really annoying. 

Instead of getting to the bottom of the matter properly, people continue to tinker and try things out.

[TomJ]

21 hours ago, One and a half said:

Ethernet Isolation devices (like the Baaske)  are just transformers, they isolate the load from the source as far as 4000V + are concerned, but a few mv of common mode noise can still pass to the other side.

If the isolator device uses a transformer brick made for nics, like the Delock 62619 is doing, than there is also a common mode choke.

[One and a half]

34 minutes ago, TomJ said:

If the isolator device uses a transformer brick made for nics, like the Delock 62619 is doing, than there is also a common mode choke.

You may also have a look at the connector from Halo in the DXE Filter. This is a combo transformer and CM choke in the one package, probably very common.... DX Engineering have two of these back to back, and a pair of (dual) filters is very effective in removing induced noise along a CATx cable. The DXE does not claim HV isolation, only for filtering.

 

fastjack-gigabit.pdf

[Superdad]

23 minutes ago, One and a half said:

You may also have a look at the connector from Halo in the DXE Filter. This is a combo transformer and CM choke in the one package, probably very common.... DX Engineering have two of these back to back, and a pair of (dual) filters is very effective in removing induced noise along a CATx cable. The DXE does not claim HV isolation, only for filtering.

Of course very high frequency AC leakage (say from SMPS somewhere in the system) sails right on through all these devices... 

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, TomJ said:

I also find this whole trail and error method of the whole industry extremely annoying and partly unprofessional. Positive results are mostly pure products of chance. The mysterization of the whole matter, which is usually done intentionally, is really annoying. 

Instead of getting to the bottom of the matter properly, people continue to tinker and try things out.

Computer audio is riddled with interfaces. A manufacturer can only 'guarantee' their little part in the chain. To listen to music consists of many parts to form the chain. With more or less infinite combinations of product, there is a need to find a balance to make the system listenable and this is where trial and error can win.

There are those, though, that experimentation is beyond logical, approaching such silliness as with @fas42, so please try to read not too much into his posts for your sanity 😀.

[One and a half]

10 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Of course very high frequency AC leakage (say from SMPS somewhere in the system) sails right on through all these devices... 

Like the Meanwells supplied with LPS and EtherRegen 😯?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

Computer audio is riddled with interfaces. A manufacturer can only 'guarantee' their little part in the chain. To listen to music consists of many parts to form the chain. With more or less infinite combinations of product, there is a need to find a balance to make the system listenable and this is where trial and error can win.

There are those, though, that experimentation is beyond logical, approaching such silliness as with @fas42, so please try to read not too much into his posts for your sanity 😀.

 

And here we find an example of the "silliness" that pervades the audio game ... it seems that it is almost impossible for many people to grasp that competent replay is a result of a SYSTEM working at a high level of integrity - and that if any, and I repeat, any, part of that system is performing below par, then it can easily drag the performance of the whole shebang down, severely. The fantasy that that endless combining of bits and pieces will one day magically produce "perfect sound" might titillate some - but it's not a very smart approach ... I suspect having people with that sort of attitude would not have helped, say, NASA get man on the moon in the time frame they did - when you have a goal, work out where the issues blocking the achieving of that are; and solve them ...

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

And here we find an example of the "silliness" that pervades the audio game ... it seems that it is almost impossible for many people to grasp that competent replay is a result of a SYSTEM working at a high level of integrity - and that if any, and I repeat, any, part of that system is performing below par, then it can easily drag the performance of the whole shebang down, severely. The fantasy that that endless combining of bits and pieces will one day magically produce "perfect sound" might titillate some - but it's not a very smart approach ... I suspect having people with that sort of attitude would not have helped, say, NASA get man on the moon in the time frame they did - when you have a goal, work out where the issues blocking the achieving of that are; and solve them ...

A paragraph describing a nanogram of info, good to see nothing's changed from your perspective. 

[TomJ]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

Of course very high frequency AC leakage (say from SMPS somewhere in the system) sails right on through all these devices... 

You can also use 33nF capacitors in the line to cancel noise under 2Mhz. See this doc: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla088a/snla088a.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwids7Hr6trzAhUtuaQKHe5MAjkQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2SpGdYF4JcXfyNHHEundVi

 

[Markus8]

On 10/19/2021 at 12:58 AM, Miska said:

 

Shielded ethernet cables... STP/SFTP.

 

 

That is the only specification compliant shielded type. I would never recommend to use any non-spec compliant cable. I know there are many "ethernet" cables, just like there are many "USB" cables, that would never pass a certification test.

 

Well Audioquest for example is doing a lot of R&D, and along with their Ethernet Diamond cable are providing one that got all around the world amazing feedback. But they are also using shielding in that cable - or did I get this wrong?

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

But they are also using shielding in that cable - or did I get this wrong?

Audioquest ties the shield drain wire to the metal shell of the RJ45 connector at only one end.  So use of their cables does not join the component grounds of the two pieces of gear being connected.

[TomJ]

15 hours ago, Superdad said:

Audioquest ties the shield drain wire to the metal shell of the RJ45 connector at only one end.  So use of their cables does not join the component grounds of the two pieces of gear being connected.

 

Hi Superdad,

 

I have a question regarding the performance of EtherREGEN.

How would EtherRegen compare to the network cards in measurements?

[TomJ]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:24 PM, TomJ said:

 

Hi Superdad,

 

I have a question regarding the performance of EtherREGEN.

How would EtherRegen compare to the network cards in measurements?

As there were no response to this simple question, I have started to measure a bundle of switches and also EtherRegen myself with a new measurement setup. Will publish the results also with external 10MHz Clock connected to EtherRegen soon…….

[jabbr]

Are you really testing 1Ghz cards with a 1Ghz scope ... 🧐

 

Why not just go optical and not worry about these details .... 100Gbe fiberoptic is now at the $1k for switches...

[TomJ]

16 hours ago, jabbr said:

Are you really testing 1Ghz cards with a 1Ghz scope ... 🧐

 

Why not just go optical and not worry about these details .... 100Gbe fiberoptic is now at the $1k for switches...

This is also what Intel does and states in its test manuael for PHYs.

But perhaps the audiophile community here has developed a rocket science that was previously hidden from Intel.

But I only care about 100base TX. 

 

Ah - clock phase noise Measurements etc. This is all Irrelevant, because what counts is what comes out of the boxes and reaches the recipient. And that is the differential signal and common mode. There is nothing else, if we assume that there is no GND connection via a screen.

[TomJ]

I have published several measurements in a German audiophile forum of ethernet equipment and will soon publish measurements of Etherregen also with 10MHz Clock:

https://www-open--end--music-com.translate.goog/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651284-messungen-von-ethernet-infrastruktur-nur-lesen?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[TomJ]

Hi guys,

 

my summary of the measurements of the EtherREGEN are currently published:
https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/pr ... post658415

 

I also measured the EtherREGEN with an external 10MHz clock to see if there is really any improvement on this.

 

I had also requested here in with the forum owner an article concerning the topic Ethernet sound with my measurements, on this unfortunately then no more answer received.
So you have to read the article with Google Translate and maybe accept small translation errors.

 

Best regards and happy reading,

 

Tom