Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 4 hours ago, TomJ said: In addition, there is a media conversion from power to optics that does not occur with Ethernet. Ethernet is a generic term for copper based network. Copper based and optical networks are totally different technologies. They do not talk to each other. Think about them like Truck and a Ship. To transfer the payload from the truck to the ship a third party system needs to unload the cargo from the truck and load it in the ship. Ethernet to optical converters play the role of that third party system. Link to comment
plissken Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, Cogito said: Wireless network is not recommended for streaming as it has high levels of radio freq noise. Now I understand that this isn't the objectifi sub forum but this is getting ridiculous. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Cogito said: i get the feeling you are conflating two different technologies. I was referring to the network side of the PC based music server. Let me explain. In our homes we have copper based and wireless networks. Wireless network is not recommended for streaming as it has high levels of radio freq noise. Even in the wired network there is lot of noise present. Since the goal is to reduce the noise getting into the DAC, it needs to be eliminated before it enters the music server PC. The solution I am talking about works like this. Just before the music server convert the electrical signals to optical and pass them on to the PC. The PC will have a Optical NIC where the optical signals are converted back to electrical. The SFP are installed on either end of the short optical cable and the data is still in the IP domain where all the error detection and error correction protocols are embedded, I am not sure what parameter you would measure which are relevant to audio. If the parts are Of decent quality, there should be any issues. I am not aware of any use of SFP modules between music server and DAC. I fully understand the issue. I use a full fiber network in my house, with copper only to the endpoints that need it. Here is one that has a built-in SFP cage. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 18, 2021 16 hours ago, Cogito said: Network signals are at 2.5v which is divided into 2 states, 1 and 0. That is not correct. 100Mbps Ethernet is 3 voltage levels and Gigabit Ethernet signaling is 5 voltage levels. For convenience I’ll quote from Wikipedia: 10BASE-T transmitter sends two differential voltages, +2.5 V or −2.5 V. A 100BASE-TX transmitter sends three differential voltages, +1 V, 0 V, or −1 V.[13] Unlike earlier Ethernet standards using broadband and coaxial cable, such as 10BASE5 (thicknet) and 10BASE2 (thinnet), 10BASE-T does not specify the exact type of wiring to be used but instead specifies certain characteristics that a cable must meet. This was done in anticipation of using 10BASE-T in existing twisted-pair wiring systems that did not conform to any specified wiring standard. Some of the specified characteristics are attenuation, characteristic impedance, timing jitter,[citation needed] propagation delay, and several types of noise and crosstalk. Cable testers are widely available to check these parameters to determine if a cable can be used with 10BASE-T. These characteristics are expected to be met by 100 meters of 24-gauge unshielded twisted-pair cable. However, with high-quality cabling, reliable cable runs of 150 meters or longer are often achievable and are considered viable by technicians familiar with the 10BASE-T specification.[citation needed] 100BASE-TX follows the same wiring patterns as 10BASE-T, but is more sensitive to wire quality and length, due to the higher bit rates. 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs bi-directionally using hybrid circuits and cancellers.[14] Data is encoded using 4D-PAM5; four dimensions using pulse-amplitude modulation (PAM) with five voltages, −2 V, −1 V, 0 V, +1 V, and +2 V.[15] While +2 V to −2 V may appear at the pins of the line driver, the voltage on the cable is nominally +1 V, +0.5 V, 0 V, −0.5 V and −1 V.[16] plissken and TomJ 1 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 18, 2021 11 minutes ago, Superdad said: That is not correct. 100Mbps Ethernet is 3 voltage levels and Gigabit Ethernet signaling is 5 voltage levels. For convenience I’ll quote from Wikipedia: 10BASE-T transmitter sends two differential voltages, +2.5 V or −2.5 V. A 100BASE-TX transmitter sends three differential voltages, +1 V, 0 V, or −1 V.[13] Unlike earlier Ethernet standards using broadband and coaxial cable, such as 10BASE5 (thicknet) and 10BASE2 (thinnet), 10BASE-T does not specify the exact type of wiring to be used but instead specifies certain characteristics that a cable must meet. This was done in anticipation of using 10BASE-T in existing twisted-pair wiring systems that did not conform to any specified wiring standard. Some of the specified characteristics are attenuation, characteristic impedance, timing jitter,[citation needed] propagation delay, and several types of noise and crosstalk. Cable testers are widely available to check these parameters to determine if a cable can be used with 10BASE-T. These characteristics are expected to be met by 100 meters of 24-gauge unshielded twisted-pair cable. However, with high-quality cabling, reliable cable runs of 150 meters or longer are often achievable and are considered viable by technicians familiar with the 10BASE-T specification.[citation needed] 100BASE-TX follows the same wiring patterns as 10BASE-T, but is more sensitive to wire quality and length, due to the higher bit rates. 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs bi-directionally using hybrid circuits and cancellers.[14] Data is encoded using 4D-PAM5; four dimensions using pulse-amplitude modulation (PAM) with five voltages, −2 V, −1 V, 0 V, +1 V, and +2 V.[15] While +2 V to −2 V may appear at the pins of the line driver, the voltage on the cable is nominally +1 V, +0.5 V, 0 V, −0.5 V and −1 V.[16] Thanks Alex for providing great information and not telling someone to Google it. Pigs might be stretching their wings because plissken up-voted your comment :~) RickyV, Exocer, Superdad and 1 other 4 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 18, 2021 12 hours ago, Jud said: My non-expert layperson's impression is that the answer is anything that doesn't flip a bit isn't "transmitted" through the conversions in the sense of being present on the other side of those conversions. Yet the ground-plane noise generated by the chips themselves (especially as a byproduct of their phase-noise/jitter) is transmitted. As always, this is not about the data itself (the decoding to “ones and zeros” is always fine), it is about second order effects. We have wrote about this in our paper—and have performed some measurements of the effects of such “clock-threshold jitter” and leakage currents on transmitted ground-plane noise. Some here will argue that all the above is irrelevant but I no longer have time, energy, or interest in convincing them otherwise. 2,850 very happy EtherREGEN users is convincing enough for me. Qhwoeprktiyns and Jud 2 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
TomJ Posted October 18, 2021 Author Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Cogito said: Ethernet is a generic term for copper based network. Copper based and optical networks are totally different technologies. They do not talk to each other. Think about them like Truck and a Ship. To transfer the payload from the truck to the ship a third party system needs to unload the cargo from the truck and load it in the ship. Ethernet to optical converters play the role of that third party system. Please read, what I wrote. The PHY for copper is mostly integrated in the ethernet chipset of the nic. So for fiber you need an extra active component on the NIC. Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 minute ago, TomJ said: Please read, what I wrote. The PHY for copper is mostly integrated in the ethernet chipset of the nic. So for fiber you need an extra active component on the NIC. Not necessarily—and not typically. SFP/SFP+ cages are simply two differential pairs (one transmit, one receive) and Ethernet signaling to them is SGMII. Many NIC chips that have built-in PHYs also have an SGMII port—which could be directly connected to the SFP cage. [Due to my firm’s focus on switches I admit much greater familiarity with the port/topology options of switch chips/transceivers for such than with NIC chipset options.] UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Superdad said: That is not correct. 100Mbps Ethernet is 3 voltage levels and Gigabit Ethernet signaling is 5 voltage levels. Two points: The very next sentence begins with “I do not know the exact details…” Context. I was making a point to the original poster who implied waveform trace of digital communications somehow effects the audio. I was trying to demonstrate that is not the case with an example. None of the details you posted invalidate my point. Original poster’s interpretation and understanding is still wrong. BTW, kudos for doing your home work by “googling”. 😀😀 Link to comment
TomJ Posted October 18, 2021 Author Share Posted October 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, Cogito said: Original poster’s interpretation and understanding is still wrong. Since you seem to have such a great knowledge (unfortunately you don't express yourself clearly), it would be nice if you could enlighten me and everyone else as to where the sound differences on Ethernet come from exactly, instead of just claiming someone is wrong. If there are no differences in Ethernet sound for you, then another thread may be better for you. Quote BTW, kudos for doing your home work by “googling”. 😀😀 I don't think Superdad had to do homework here, but was just too lazy to write this himself. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I fully understand the issue. I use a full fiber network in my house, with copper only to the endpoints that need it. Here is one that has a built-in SFP cage. That looks like a DAC with a network streamer built in. New to me. Link to comment
Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, TomJ said: Since you seem to have such a great knowledge (unfortunately you don't express yourself clearly), it would be nice if you could enlighten me and everyone else as to where the sound differences on Ethernet come from exactly, instead of just claiming someone is wrong. If there are no differences in Ethernet sound for you, then another thread may be better for you. Already did. Look at the third paragraph in this post. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/64138-best-ethernet-cards-for-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1163704 @The Computer Audiophile My comment about googling may not have been polite, but I do find your stalking and heckling childish. I didn’t expect it from the founder of this site. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cogito said: My comment about googling may not have been polite, but I do find your stalking and heckling childish. I didn’t expect it from the founder of this site. Perhaps we have very different definitions of stalking and heckling. Please let me know where you believed I stalked and heckled you. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
One and a half Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 29 minutes ago, Cogito said: That looks like a DAC with a network streamer built in. New to me. That's a Lumin X1, released about 18 months ago, maybe more. Stellar performance, so is the price. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
TomJ Posted October 18, 2021 Author Share Posted October 18, 2021 52 minutes ago, Cogito said: Already did. Look at the third paragraph in this post. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/64138-best-ethernet-cards-for-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1163704 If you could read an eye pattern correctly and understand that ethernet signal is differential and galvanically isolated by definition, then you would know where noise is in the measurement representation. Link to comment
Jud Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Superdad said: Yet the ground-plane noise generated by the chips themselves (especially as a byproduct of their phase-noise/jitter) is transmitted. As always, this is not about the data itself (the decoding to “ones and zeros” is always fine), it is about second order effects. We have wrote about this in our paper—and have performed some measurements of the effects of such “clock-threshold jitter” and leakage currents on transmitted ground-plane noise. Some here will argue that all the above is irrelevant but I no longer have time, energy, or interest in convincing them otherwise. 2,850 very happy EtherREGEN users is convincing enough for me. Yep, should have thought of the ER, which at least subjectively made a nice difference in my system. But perhaps back to Ethernet cards? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Exocer Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, TomJ said: I actually wanted to make a constructive contribution to the forum with my post and not be insulted again and again with insolence and have to defend myself for wanting to contribute something positive here. Hey, I thought the thread was going well initially. Thanks for your contribution. You helped me validate why I didn't like the sorta popular TP-Link card 😀. You said something a few pages back about discrete transformers. How would you visually identify if a card has poorer power management than another? Link to comment
Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, TomJ said: If you could read an eye pattern correctly and understand that ethernet signal is differential and galvanically isolated by definition, then you would know where noise is in the measurement representation. The phrase galvanic isolation does not belong when discussing ethernet. Galvanic Isolation means, there is no electrical connection between the two end. Differential arrangement reduces the noise, it does not eliminate it. Link to comment
Cogito Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 53 minutes ago, plissken said: I doubt you understand how Ethernet and it's protocols work because what you have presented speaks to your lack of fundamentals on this subject. @TomJ and @The Computer Audiophile may not like it but I agree 100% with the above statement. The problem is, he keeps making assertions with little understanding of the subject. We are here to exchange information and learn from each other. If you correct the person, it becomes a pissing context. If you tell the person to go read for himself, the big honcho doesn't like it. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 @Cogito and @plissken you guys are no longer allowed to post in this thread because you’ve proven unable to get along with others and offer opinions or facts without being offensive. Please start your own threads if you want to discuss the topic. NanoSword 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
TomJ Posted October 18, 2021 Author Share Posted October 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Cogito said: I doubt you understand how Ethernet and it's protocols work because what you have presented speaks to your lack of fundamentals on this subject. This statement you should rather take a look at yourself. Ethernet is isolated by default and a differential signal cannot reduce noise, but is only quite stable against external emi influences, which you have mentioned with your antenna theory. Do your homework first, before you and your colleague constantly accuse other people of not having a clue. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 @plissken your sole goal here seems to be to make people uncomfortable, to use your own term. That’s antithetical to furthering people’s understanding and fostering a community of learning and enjoying this hobby. You’ve now been banned from AS pkane2001 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted October 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 18, 2021 In case anyone thinks this is censorship, I’ll enlighten them of the site rules. Anyone is free to start their own thread and say whatever they wish. They just can’t stifle all conversations by making assertions (right or wrong) and posting offensive answers. If one isn’t wanted in a conversation, it must be respected. If Plissken would’ve started his own rebuttal thread to this, after he was asked to not post, it would’ve been all good. The problem is that posting in another thread is never good enough for guys like him. There needs to be an audience and he needs to make people feel uncomfortable (his word not mine). That isn’t how communities work and it isn’t how anyone learns. It certainly makes nobody receptive of what’s being said. Back to the regularly scheduled programming. TomJ, LondonDan and Markus8 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Miska Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Cogito said: The phrase galvanic isolation does not belong when discussing ethernet. Galvanic Isolation means, there is no electrical connection between the two end. Ethernet is transformer isolated, it is considered one of the possible methods of doing galvanic isolation. Another would be capacitive isolation which is sometimes used for things like USB. Third would be optical isolation. So you cannot have things like ground currents flowing through copper ethernet, as long as you don't spoil it with shielded cables (which should never be used in audio environments). Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 I have zero practical knowledge in using Ethernet anywhere in the vicinity of an audio replay setup, but I can say with complete conviction that dealing with every sort of electrical noise that can impact the reproduction chain, no matter how unlikely or "theoretically impossible", is paramount - and, it gets worse: the more 'transparent', 'revealing' the rig, the more effort needs to be expended to totally isolate the circuitry from these effects. Yes, you'll "get away with it", not worrying about such things if the right money is spent on making the SQ impressive in other ways; but you'll never hear the recording completely accurately if you don't take interference factors into account. Over three decades of experience dealing with these issues has shown me that the audio industry has barely moved in its understanding of the importance of this; meaning that most enthusiasts have to spend lots of time and effort futzing "with everything", sorting this out in a way that makes their listening more enjoyable ... and 'snake oil' will live for as long as the designers keep ignoring or paying only minimal attention to these issues ... Markus8 1 Link to comment
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