Linear Power Supply for digital streaming (again).

[LukasAudio78]

Hello all, I'm new here, however I was following quit some time very long and intresting your threads about power supplies for digital streaming part.

However couldn't find exact answer. No doubt, that LPS is important for all digital streaming closest to DACs and streamers, but would it be beneficial to use for NAS + Roon Rock + switch, which are all connected to separate mains line and are in separate floor? 

To expensive to buy expensive several LPS just for testing or to know that they at least won't make things any worse. Has anybody tested it? 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

Hi @LukasAudio78,

 

There is no perfect answer to this as varies in different systems so you need to try for yourself. But in general principle an LPS should have the biggest effect on the Roon Rock, then the switch and least effect on the NAS. In theory!

 

If the switch is an audiophile one with reclocking then the switch should respond more to an LPS.

 

The other aspect to consider is how the equipment is connected to your streamer or DAC. In theory the best methods would be Fibre optic, then Ethernet, and WiFi last.

 

But Fibre opens its own list of questions depending on whether your switch supports it and do you need to buy a decent (audiophile decoder) such as a Sonore OpticalModule etc.

 

Sorry mate but your whole question is a rabbit hole. I'd probably start with the Rock myself FWIW.

 

PS welcome to the site.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[LukasAudio78]

Thanks for trying to answer, Alan,  I agree with you, mostly everything with LPS starts a rabbit hole, but seems I should jump off the bus with this upgrade, because to buy just for try is too expensive.  My roonrock is powered, but just by low quality Dutch Sbooster MK3 LPS and  I didn't, notice any difference with it connected.  Maybe it's because LPS is not quality enough or my Roonrock + NAS are enough separated?     RRock > NAS > cat6 >   'audiophile' bonn8 switch > streamingDAC  > mono blocks.

[davide256]

Biggest bang for the buck is at USB endpoint and DAC.  I’ve used my JS-2 with NAS, no audible difference.

[Rexp]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

Biggest bang for the buck is at USB endpoint and DAC.  I’ve used my JS-2 with NAS, no audible difference.

Then again some folks can't live without their Mutec reclocker.. 

[Blackmorec]

If you randomly place an LPS or 2 in your network chain, you are not at all guaranteed to get the improvements you’ve paid and were hoping for.

 

In networking in general, the only purpose of a network is to move data from one point to another. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

But in audio, there is a another and for audiophiles a far more exciting function that the network can perform.

 

In analog audio, the goal is to exclude as much noise as possible from the signal, because noise and signal cannot be later differentiated and once its there, there’s very little to be done about it. When the noise is audible, it disturbs the sound quality and enjoyment.  But in Digital, the signal actually comes in 2 parts….the digital, time based pattern of polarity changes and the analog voltage-based representation of that digital pattern that allows the data stream to be transmitted along wires.  And because of digital’s 2 part structure, you can do something with it that you simply can’t do in analog, namely clean and refine the signal. 

In audio, a well designed and implemented network can clean up and improve sound quality, and not just by a little bit. 

Each time your data file is ‘transmitted’ down a wire or via a antennae by an active, powered network device you are essentially ‘re-synthesizing’ the data stream and of course, as with anything analog, you are including whatever analog noise the network module and its power supply inherently adds to the signal.  So, the better your LPS and the better your cable screening, the less noise you’ll transmit.  

In digital, the problem isn’t noise that you can directly hear….rather it’s high frequency noise that disturbs the high frequency digital timing and any processes around that.  And as we know,, incorrect timing can be be measured either in the time domain, where its called jitter and/or in the frequency domain, where its called phase noise. And phase noise is nothing more than a distortion of frequencies. When the timing isn’t right, nor are the frequencies that result and in audio of course that’s not good. 

 

Modules along the network chain have an important characteristic. The quality (finally heard as sound quality) of the outgoing signal is directly related to the quality of the incoming signal. Improve the quality of the incoming stream and you improve the quality of the outgoing stream. But there’s a very large ‘BUT’ here.  Network modules can improve the stream quality, but they can just as easily bring about its deterioration. If you take a  data stream produced using a 3parts per billion (ppb) oscillator and feed it into another module with a 3 parts per million (ppm) accurate clock, you have essentially wasted all the improvements the 3 ppb clock brought about. 

 

In order to maximise the final sound quality of your data stream, ideally that data stream should be improved at every stage of the transmission process. In that way, you get ‘compounding’ of all improvements you make on the basis that the better the incoming signal, the better the output. 

Lets translate this to some simple numbers. Lets say we have 5 network modules feeding into your DAC…a modem, a router, a bridge, a switch and a server….. and for illustration purposes lets assign a percentage value to the level of improvement….+20% for better specs and -20% for worse specs. 

 

If your network is organised in the way I recommend, you’ll get the following improvement

100+20%+20%+20%+20%  = 207%…a gain of 107%

Now lets place a poorer component right at the beginning of the chain

80+20%+20%+20%+20% = 162%….a gain of 62% 

So straight away, you see that if you upgrade the first element by 20% from 80 to 100 you get a gain of 35%…thanks to the compounding I was talking about.

Now lets place the poorer component at the other end of the chain

100+20%+20%+20%-20% = 138%….a gain of 38% 

Now these numbers aren’t meant to do anything other than to illustrate that placing a really good low noise power supply or oscillator in the wrong place in your network can have a major affect on what you finally hear.

As your network progresses along its length, ideally what you want are increasingly more accurate clocks, increasingly lower noise and ripple power supplies, increasing more thorough vibration and EMI/RFI control.

A well organised network of moderately good components can thus sound better than a network with some really excellent, but misplaced components. It explains why some people hear a very positive improvement from adding say a better LPS while someone else may hear very little change. It also illustrates that the better the down-stream components, the higher the rewards of improvements made further upstream.  Adding a really good LPS to a modem for example may pay huge dividends in one system and make only a small or even negligible difference in another. 

[R1200CL]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:07 PM, LukasAudio78 said:

To expensive to buy expensive several LPS just for testing or to know that they at least won't make things any worse.

Maybe this one isn’t to expensive?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002207035576.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.101055beXcMu2s
 

I have one shipping, with TALEMA transformer. 

[MaxBuck]

Another urban legend.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

 

If the manufacturer of the (objectively) best amplifier on earth says switching power supplies are fine, who am I to argue? 

[R1200CL]

46 minutes ago, MaxBuck said:

If the manufacturer of the (objectively) best amplifier on earth says switching power supplies are fine, who am I to argue? 

So claim Robert Watts the designer of Cord Dave, and he is proven wrong 😀

(Read last few pages novel tread). 

[opus101]

1 hour ago, MaxBuck said:

Another urban legend.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

 

If the manufacturer of the (objectively) best amplifier on earth says switching power supplies are fine, who am I to argue? 

 

They omit any discussion of common-mode noise. So you wanna buy an argument from authority?

[MaxBuck]

1 minute ago, opus101 said:

 

They omit any discussion of common-mode noise. So you wanna buy an argument from authority?

Benchmark makes the quietest amplifier on the planet. Noise of any kind is not an issue for their design. So you wanna revisit your argument? 

[opus101]

No need to revisit because you've not told me anything I didn't know before. So their omission of discussion of the topic of common-mode noise still stands.

[botrytis]

4 hours ago, opus101 said:

No need to revisit because you've not told me anything I didn't know before. So their omission of discussion of the topic of common-mode noise still stands.

 

Actually, it is relevant. Why? They make both professional and consumer grade products which ALL use switching PS w/o any issue. I would like to see the actual common-mode noise measurements. Which I have asked for on various audio forums and all people can say is, 'I can hear it'. Doesn't mean squat to me, since I don't know how the listening test was done, etc. 

 

@March Audiowas doing actual noise measurements from a PC stressed versus not stressed - with and without a signal. No common-mode noise there. I guess he is doing something wrong?

[opus101]

They see no issue, doesn't mean there cannot be any issue with CM noise. Does their amp have single-ended inputs? I would guess not. With balanced inputs and where the pin1 is wired per AES recommendations there wouldn't be an issue.

 

@March Audio didn't make any CM noise measurements so no surprise that he didn't see any.

[BigAlMc]

Last few posts are pretty off topic so let's get back to the Ops question please.

 

@LukasAudio78 If you tried an Sbooster on the Rock and didn't hear an improvement then its probably not worth spending more on a better LPSU. 

 

Also sounds like your system is connecting to your DAC by Ethernet:

 

NAS > Rock > Bonn > DAC

 

Is that correct?

 

For me the question becomes what DAC are you using and do we know if it is better with Ethernet or USB input? Or do you prefer Ethernet for any reason.

 

If Ethernet then either a good quality 5V LPSU for your Bonn switch. Or perhaps even a better quality Ethernet cable.

 

If your DAC is better at USB then perhaps a good NAA endpoint that takes Ethernet in and outputs high quality USB. Something like the Sonore UltraRendu. But you'd also need a decent LPSU for the NAA.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[LukasAudio78]

Hello, thanks for feedback Alan, also @Blackmorec post is very informative, just too complicated to understand in my case:)   My chain is the following, everything connected by ethernet Cat5, and NDX2 at the end by BlueJeans Cat6 Ethernet cables.  Wifi in no no for Naim. 

In Asus router and Tplink switch connected various tv, philips hue and similar boxes.  Everything powered by switching PS. except Roonrock. 

 

1st floor:  [ISP Modem] ->[  Asus Router  ] -> [2x Bonn] -> [Naim NDX2]

                                                    V

2nd floor:  [HS453 NAS]<- [ Tplilnk switch ] ->  [RRock]

 

 

 

[audiobomber]

I'm not surprised a linear power supply didn't affect sound quality of your Roon Rock. I have a Dell Inspiron 7000 laptop. I can't hear any difference whether powered by its SMPS or battery. Upgrading the PSU on my Raspberry Pi 3B+ from the freebie wall wart to an iPower 5V had no effect on the sound.

 

OTOH, I do believe in psu upgrades elsewhere. I use Teddy Pardo 12/2 on my DAC and a Welborne Labs PS-REG on my sMS-200. I have Zero-Zone linear power supplies on my Playpoint Streamer, range extender and router. I use an iPower X SMPS on my TP-Link switch. I have not upgraded the power supply on my NAS and likely never will. I've used various methods to upgrade power on my other inexpensive DAC's.

 

The wall wart my internet provider supplied with modem was ruining the sound on all my systems. Replacing it with an iPower 12V resolved the issue. I suspect this device was defective, but it goes to show that everything upstream can have an effect, even though separated physically via w-fi.

 

All of the above had definite sonic benefits except for replacing the SMPS on the Playpoint with a very nice Zero-Zone 2020 S.S. LPS, which had minimal effect. I don't regret doing this however, as it was the only remaining SMPS in my main system.

 

Replacing the wall wart on my TP-Link TL-SG108E ethernet switch with the Welborne 9V LPS was actually detrimental to the sound. Adding an iPower X 9V SMPS proved to be the right answer. This was a bit of surprise, but I have heard a couple of manufacturers state that an LPS is not recommended for some purely digital gear because it does not react quickly enough.

 

Note that an Uptone JS-2, Teddy Pardo 12/2 and Zero-Zone 2020 are not traditional linear power supplies. They feature a bank of capacitors that act like a battery, without the downsides of a battery. 

 

My advice is to go back to the SMPS for the RRock, re-deploy the SBooster elsewhere in your system and get an iPower X for your TP-Link switch, as a good start. Then continue down the rabbit hole if you're as bent as many of us here. 🤪 

https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/

[davide256]

4 hours ago, LukasAudio78 said:

Hello, thanks for feedback Alan, also @Blackmorec post is very informative, just too complicated to understand in my case:)   My chain is the following, everything connected by ethernet Cat5, and NDX2 at the end by BlueJeans Cat6 Ethernet cables.  Wifi in no no for Naim. 

In Asus router and Tplink switch connected various tv, philips hue and similar boxes.  Everything powered by switching PS. except Roonrock. 

 

1st floor:  [ISP Modem] ->[  Asus Router  ] -> [2x Bonn] -> [Naim NDX2]

                                                    V

2nd floor:  [HS453 NAS]<- [ Tplilnk switch ] ->  [RRock]

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of having actual routed traffic in audio vs  using simple MAC address traffic switching... things go bump in the night

with traffic that traverses routers because of Internet demands on the router.

 

In your shoes I'd swing the NDX2 over onto the same switch the rest of your audio gear is on.

I also don't like UPNP, IME it rounds transients. If the NDX2 supports SMB file access, try that with your NAS.

[Downtheline]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:40 AM, audiobomber said:

Uptone JS-2...(is) not traditional linear power supplies. They feature a bank of capacitors that act like a battery

I don't think that is true. 

[audiobomber]

38 minutes ago, Downtheline said:

I don't think that is true. 

I think you're right. I misinterpreted something I read. Apologies, perhaps @Superdad would be kind enough to clean up the mess I made.