The new Sonore opticalModule Deluxe

[charlesphoto]

On 11/5/2021 at 7:50 AM, ArcticSapien said:

 

But I thought I read elsewhere too from Sonore/SGC folks that adding fibre upstream (dirty side) doesn't help much.

Like everything in this crazy hobby, it may or may not. I know I can tell the difference between one or two oM's before the oR. Two have the effect of just a little more hash taken from the top end. I could easily live with one though pre-oR, but since I had the pair already.... even if a second is only a 1% difference, all those one percent tweaks add up in the end. Of course we all have different budgets and priorities as well. 

[charlesphoto]

Yeah, I'm considering an oM deluxe for the office Unitiqute set up which is a 10/100 input.  would go Cisco 2960 main switch SFP out to the oM (the other SFP out goes to the oM>oM>oR chain).

 

Also considering an etherRegen, and consolidating. But that would mean A in and SFP out for the oR in the living room (B out for the 10/100 only UQ in the office). Not sure if this would be a down grade for the oR from the multi bridge oM set up I have now with separated power supplies (LPS 1.2 and TP 7v). Thing is it all sounds quite good as it is, and the network solid, so a bit loathe to monkey with it. The office is probably where I do my most listening anyway, so most keen on upping the sq there. 

 

Lets see which one comes back into stock first...

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, ArcticSapien said:

Is there a trade-off between more moats vs. more devices creating new interference? 

I don’t think so. There is said a chain of dual good switches (meaning EtherRegen and/or the opticalModule) have a good effect in some systems. Adding an external clock even better. (At least in a A >B configuration).

This has to be done in a way that power supplies and ethernet cables doesn’t create loops and bypass the moat created by EtherRegen. 
 

Remember the EtherRegen was developed towards RJ45 interfaces from it's B side. But it’s been said using it in a B to A may be equally good. Well the “moat” is the same to my understanding, but there is for sure a minor reduction in phase noise since the clock signal also have to cross the isolation (the moat). It would be nice if Uptone could enlighten us with numbers if ever measured. 
 

Assuming you now have an opticalRendu, and lack a FMC, the Mikrotik’s may be a good option to the opticalModule, as this is a 10GB switch and we expect due to the requirements of 10GB, (eye pattern), it ought to perform very well. (I have one, actually 2, myself). 

Howerver it’s a mystery to me how “those bad clocks” in 10GB can deliver better (or equal) quality than what the clocks used in Johns design. Some has asked for an eye pattern test of the EtherRegen. The white paper has promised some measurements, but so far we haven’t seen any. 
 

Since you also mentioned the SE version as an option, there is a small project ongoing testing the opticalRendu with external clock done by sine wave and the circuitry EtherRegen lacks to turn sine to square 😀

 

[JohnSwenson]

30 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I don’t think so. There is said a chain of dual good switches (meaning EtherRegen and/or the opticalModule) have a good effect in some systems. Adding an external clock even better. (At least in a A >B configuration).

This has to be done in a way that power supplies and ethernet cables doesn’t create loops and bypass the moat created by EtherRegen. 
 

Remember the EtherRegen was developed towards RJ45 interfaces from it's B side. But it’s been said using it in a B to A may be equally good. Well the “moat” is the same to my understanding, but there is for sure a minor reduction in phase noise since the clock signal also have to cross the isolation (the moat). It would be nice if Uptone could enlighten us with numbers if ever measured. 
 

Assuming you now have an opticalRendu, and lack a FMC, the Mikrotik’s may be a good option to the opticalModule, as this is a 10GB switch and we expect due to the requirements of 10GB, (eye pattern), it ought to perform very well. (I have one, actually 2, myself). 

Howerver it’s a mystery to me how “those bad clocks” in 10GB can deliver better (or equal) quality than what the clocks used in Johns design. Some has asked for an eye pattern test of the EtherRegen. The white paper has promised some measurements, but so far we haven’t seen any. 
 

Since you also mentioned the SE version as an option, there is a small project ongoing testing the opticalRendu with external clock done by sine wave and the circuitry EtherRegen lacks to turn sine to square 😀

 

Just a few words on testing these things. Eye patterns can only show gross levels jitter, no where near what we are talking about in high end audio. They DO show the slope at intercept and AM noise on the signal, which is important because that affects how much jitter is added to the signal in the receiver.

 

So you really need to use a real jitter analyzer that goes down to very small levels of jitter. Fortunately I recently acquired one that can go down to 1ps resolution (way better than you can do with an eye pattern), BUT using it with an Ethernet signal is very difficult. The problem is that what goes out over the wires in RJ-45 Ethernet is NOT binary! 100Mb has three voltage levels, 1000Mb has 5 voltage levels and 10G has 16 voltage levels! All jitter analyzers are designed to work with binary signals, high and low, with the RJ-45 signals voltage levels are all over the place. Have you ever seen an eye pattern on a 1Gb signal, it is VERY weird looking! I haven't yet figured out how to do a proper setup to measure these signals. Since the B output of an ER is 100Mb (only three voltages) I MAY be able to get decent results from this, but I have not tried it yet.

 

On the other hand using the jitter analyzer on a Gb optical signal (well actually the electrical signal going into or out of the module) is a piece of cake. I can easily do this.

 

So what would you like measured? It has to be an electrical signal that is binary (such as going in or out of an SFP module). I can't measure 10Gb SFP+ signals, they are too fast for this analyzer (if someones wants to send me $100K I can get one that DOES). I MAY be able to make measurements of the B side of the ER.

 

I also have an extremely good phase noise analyzer that can measure phase noise of clocks up to 200MHz.

 

So all of you, come up with a set of one or two tests of what you want measured. Be warned it can take time. I will almost always have to make test fixtures to to get the test signals into the equipment, which is not easy to do since almost anything you do degrades the signals. This means it can take quite awhile. If this entails using devices (switches, DACs whatever) that I do not have, please ship said devices to me.

 

John S.

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Just a few words on testing these things. Eye patterns can only show gross levels jitter, no where near what we are talking about in high end audio. They DO show the slope at intercept and AM noise on the signal, which is important because that affects how much jitter is added to the signal in the receiver.

 

You are speculating that Ethernet jitter affects the audio signal, and moreso that it affects the audio signal in the same way that DAC clock jitter does. For example, close-in phase noise. What does this even mean for my 100Gbe switch. Trust me, the jitter on this switch is less than you can measure.

 

4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

 

So you really need to use a real jitter analyzer that goes down to very small levels of jitter. Fortunately I recently acquired one that can go down to 1ps resolution (way better than you can do with an eye pattern),

 

 

4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

BUT using it with an Ethernet signal is very difficult. The problem is that what goes out over the wires in RJ-45 Ethernet is NOT binary! 100Mb has three voltage levels, 1000Mb has 5 voltage levels and 10G has 16 voltage levels! All jitter analyzers are designed to work with binary signals, high and low, with the RJ-45 signals voltage levels are all over the place. Have you ever seen an eye pattern on a 1Gb signal, it is VERY weird looking! I haven't yet figured out how to do a proper setup to measure these signals. Since the B output of an ER is 100Mb (only three voltages) I MAY be able to get decent results from this, but I have not tried it yet.

 

The problem with an Ethernet signal isn't that it isn't binary, it certainly is for single mode fiber or at the output of an SFP cage, rather that the switching rate is many orders of magnitude higher than audio, as well as being async with audio.

 

Feel free to use fiberoptic Ethernet though and the signal at the SFP(+) module. 10G, 25G no problem. That's a single lane.

 

4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

 

On the other hand using the jitter analyzer on a Gb optical signal (well actually the electrical signal going into or out of the module) is a piece of cake. I can easily do this.

 

So what would you like measured? It has to be an electrical signal that is binary (such as going in or out of an SFP module). I can't measure 10Gb SFP+ signals, they are too fast for this analyzer (if someones wants to send me $100K I can get one that DOES). I MAY be able to make measurements of the B side of the ER.

 

I also have an extremely good phase noise analyzer that can measure phase noise of clocks up to 200MHz.

 

You can of course measure the phase noise using a frequency divider.

 

4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

 

So all of you, come up with a set of one or two tests of what you want measured. Be warned it can take time. I will almost always have to make test fixtures to to get the test signals into the equipment, which is not easy to do since almost anything you do degrades the signals. This means it can take quite awhile. If this entails using devices (switches, DACs whatever) that I do not have, please ship said devices to me.

 

John S.

 

How about something you *can* measure:

 

Measure the phase noise on the I2S lines of a DAC using the opticalRendu as an endpoint, and use a 1Gbe SFP with a 10Gbe capable switch vs your EtherRegen. Is the phase noise at the DAC different? Now use a fancy external clock on your EtherRegen, does this make a difference at the DAC. That is something that you are capable of measuring. 

[ArcticSapien]

Here's a shoutout to Andrew Gillis of Small Green Computer. I'm not sure how he finds time to do this, but he seems to respond to all emails, including from random people asking him stupid questions :) That's first class customer service. Here's wishing that SGC will do well and enrich the audio community with interesting stuff along the way.

 

(Unfortunately the opticalModule is still sold out as of this date).

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, ArcticSapien said:

Here's a shoutout to Andrew Gillis of Small Green Computer. I'm not sure how he finds time to do this, but he seems to respond to all emails, including from random people asking him stupid questions :) That's first class customer service. Here's wishing that SGC will do well and enrich the audio community with interesting stuff along the way.

 

(Unfortunately the opticalModule is still sold out as of this date).

 

I'm with you 100% Andrew is terrific. As is Jesus at Sonore. 

[Mihaylov]

Does anyone know what the consumption current of the optical module has? Maximum and continuous? The sonore website does not have any information about this and it is not possible to choose an external power supply.

[Superdad]

18 minutes ago, Mihaylov said:

Maximum and continuous?

I believe it draws between 0.75A to 1.1A. 

[Mihaylov]

Thanks Alex! But I would like accurate measurement data of current consumption. Especially the maximum current consumption. Some users of the optical module have problems when powering the optical module from LPS-1.2, which I attribute to the fact that the maximum (peak) current consumption can significantly exceed 1.1A ( maximum value for LPS-1.2).

[MarkusBarkus]

...this help?

https://www.sonore.us/power.html
 

 

[Mihaylov]

23 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...this help?

https://www.sonore.us/power.html
 

 

Output: 1.5A continuous, 2.0A peak? May be. But (sorry Alex :( ):

According to the load, neither device holds more than 1 ampere, and this is a straight limit, which is the last strength. The 3045 themselves hold 500mA officially, they are in 1.2 in parallel, and as they say there is 1.1 amps at the output - let them remain on their conscience.

(this is about LPS-1 and LPS-1.2).

 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

Some users of the optical module have problems when powering the optical module from LPS-1.2,

No, it is the opticalRendu that exceeds the 1.1A capacity of our UltraCap LPS-1.2. 
The opticalModule (even the Deluxe) is fine with the LPS-1.2’s 1.14A limit. 

[Markus8]

So when using a Farad Super3, better go with 7V or 9V for the oM Deluxe?

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

So when using a Farad Super3, better go with 7V or 9V for the oM Deluxe?

7V.  

9V is just going to generate wasted heat in the oM Deluxe.

[Markus8]

Thank you @Superdad

So the oM Deluxe V2 is on the way which will be exciting to test in my system. 
Now only ER Gen.2 is missing to make ny setup evolution perfect 😉

[R1200CL]

@agillis or @vortecjr or @JohnSwenson

 

Please tell us about what’s new with the V2 opticalModule released today. 

[Markus8]

There is a new video but somehow not telling about features / differences 

 

[Markus8]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:06 PM, R1200CL said:

@agillis or @vortecjr or @JohnSwenson

 

Please tell us about what’s new with the V2 opticalModule released today. 

Some update would be really helpful to people interested. 

[muski]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:59 PM, Superdad said:

7V.  

9V is just going to generate wasted heat in the oM Deluxe.

I'm powering my new OMD with an LPS-1.2 @ 7v. Both the LPS and the OMD are running a little warm (but not hot). 

 

Do you think I could I set the LPS to 5v?

 

thanks,

muski

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, muski said:

Do you think I could I set the LPS to 5v?

Sonore says 

• Power input: 5-9 VDC

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, muski said:

I'm powering my new OMD with an LPS-1.2 @ 7v. Both the LPS and the OMD are running a little warm (but not hot). 

 

Do you think I could I set the LPS to 5v?

5V will probably be fine as well.  It won’t change the thermal dissipation of the UltraCap LPS1-1.2 since the opticalModule will be drawing about the same current. But a lesser voltage drop across the opticalModule’s LT3045 linear regulators could result in slightly less heat from it. (I can’t recall if the new version has DC-DC pre-regs fronting the LT3045s; depending upon if it does—on some or all the LDOs—a lower input voltage to the unit might not make much if any thermal change.)

Honestly I would not sweat it. 

[JohnSwenson]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, R1200CL said:

@agillis or @vortecjr or @JohnSwenson

 

Please tell us about what’s new with the V2 opticalModule released today. 

There are no new features, it does exactly the same thing as the previous oM Deluxe. The reason for this version is that all the main chips in the previous version have become completely unavailable. This is a re-design to use chips that ARE available. The search took a very long time, almost every chip in this space had zero stock in the world. What I finally found was a single chip that does everything in one chip and was designed by a group of engineers that do a VERY good job, I have worked on chips with them before. The result is a chip that will have significantly lower power and ground noise than the previous version. I have no idea exactly what this does to the sound, I have not had time to spend quality time with it to find out.

 

John S.

[Markus8]

17 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

There are no new features, it does exactly the same thing as the previous oM Deluxe. The reason for this version is that all the main chips in the previous version have become completely unavailable. This is a re-design to use chips that ARE available. The search took a very long time, almost every chip in this space had zero stock in the world. What I finally found was a single chip that does everything in one chip and was designed by a group of engineers that do a VERY good job, I have worked on chips with them before. The result is a chip that will have significantly lower power and ground noise than the previous version. I have no idea exactly what this does to the sound, I have not had time to spend quality time with it to find out.

 

John S.

 

Thank you very much for the insights. So apart from the new chip, has there been any other improvement in the new design that was needed? Also has the clock been upgraded too or is this still the same version as in OM D v1?

[Markus8]

@JohnSwensonshort Update?