Analog: Still Better?

[One and a half]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

Gary

 What you heard was from the 0x0002 529kb/s .aac Subscription audio stream that can be extracted after downloading the video with suitable Video S/W.

Compare that sound with the direct video that I posted. Would you rather  base a CD purchasing decision on the video alone , or from the 529kb/s stream to try and see if it sounds worthwhile ?

 

Alex

 

 

I think that analysis should be in a different topic, the sample rate might be redbook, but the 15kHz cutoff is not great. I go for the music, then either LP or CD which ever is easier to buy.

[One and a half]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Source as in, the data encoded in the medium's format? Let's say I rip the contents of a so-so CD track, do an optimum conversion of that data to the SACD format, and burn it onto a disc - and play both the original CD, and the new SACD on your chain - will they sound identical, or will one be "better" than the other?

No, the original purchased CD or SACD with jewel box, glossy paper et al, played in an appropriate player like in my profile. when a DSD_DISC is created, the dsf sounds better on the SACD player than they do from digital chain from computer and IT network. By better I mean less annoying to listen to.

[Confused]

Over time I have listened to some great vinyl based systems and some great digital based systems.  So if both can sound great, which is best?  I suspect that the ultimate answer is that if digital is done well, it is the best.  Digital offers lower noise, higher resolution, higher dynamic range, greater frequency response, better channel separation, and so on.

 

Undoubtedly, vinyl offers some euphonic characteristics, but if you really wanted to you could mimic these, and fine tune, in the digital domain.

 

From my own experience, I can look back to a previous system that I ran at home.  Two main sources, a Rega P25 anniversary TT with a Dynavector cartridge and a Musical Fidelity A3CD CD player.  I had quite a few recordings both on vinyl and CD, and I found a few where I much preferred the vinyl version played on the Rega, plus a few I preferred via CD on the Musical Fidelity.  Nothing strange there I think, and possibly just down to if the CD or vinyl version happens to be the better master.

 

Earlier this year I revisited some of these old vinyl favourites, now played on a rather better Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT with Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge.  Swapping to the digital version, now ripped from the original CD and streamed through the kit per my sig below, in every case the digital version was significantly better, which rather goes against my "just down to if the CD or vinyl version happens to be the better master" comment in the paragraph above.  Don't get me wrong, those old vinyl recording still sound superb, it is just that now the digital versions sound the better of the two.

 

OK - This is just a single data point of one person's ears and systems, however, objectively digital is the best, and now my subjective experience fully backs this up too.  I think if digital is "done right", with today's technology and kit, it wins by far.

[Confused]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

Gary

 What you heard was from the 0x0002 529kb/s .aac Subscription audio stream that can be extracted after downloading the video with suitable Video S/W.

Compare that sound with the direct video that I posted. Would you rather  base a CD purchasing decision on the video alone , or from the 529kb/s stream to try and see if it sounds worthwhile ?

 

Alex

 

 

 

Is there a way to extract the vinyl version from YouTube?

[sandyk]

27 minutes ago, Confused said:

 

Is there a way to extract the vinyl version from YouTube?

 

 The Vinyl version audio will have been digitised to both <128kb/s and normally as well as a 529kb/s hidden .aac audio.stream (0x0002)

[R1200CL]

9 hours ago, Confused said:

Nothing strange there I think, and possibly just down to if the CD or vinyl version happens to be the better master.

And that should end the discussion. It’s different masterering. Higher DR on vinyl, so main reason why it sounds better. 

[kumakuma]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, the first thing I worry about is whether something affects the SQ. And if it does, then I do something about it. The why there is an effect, well ... I might worry about that, sometime down the track 😉.

 

Static effects are a mongrel - I can do "crazy things", and have the SQ degrade, or pick up again. The literature is extremely poor on analysing static, mainly because no-one really understands it! Sure, there's tonnes of material on how to combat it, and how to use it for doing something - but as for predicting whether static will occur or impact in some situation, with a decent hit rate ... you've got Buckley's! 😁

 

Lose the spinning discs and static electricity is much less of an issue.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Lose the spinning discs and static electricity is much less of an issue.

 That's if it EVER was an issue.  Extracting the contents and playing them from system memory, whether in an electrically  quiet PC or a dedicated CD player such as the P.W.T CD player will fix those issues .

 Where you WILL see far more evidence of static electricity is on a VINYL Record as the stylus collects detritus from even what appears to be a clean record !!!. 

[kumakuma]

14 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 That's if it EVER was an issue.  Extracting the contents and playing them from system memory, whether in an electrically  quiet PC or a dedicated CD player such as the P.W.T CD player will fix those issues .

 Where you WILL see far more evidence of static electricity is on a VINYL Record as the stylus collects detritus from even what appears to be a clean record !!!. 

 

Exactly!

 

[fas42]

12 hours ago, One and a half said:

No, the original purchased CD or SACD with jewel box, glossy paper et al, played in an appropriate player like in my profile. when a DSD_DISC is created, the dsf sounds better on the SACD player than they do from digital chain from computer and IT network. By better I mean less annoying to listen to.

 

So, the mastering as far as the music is concerned is identical - the actual music content is the same. If one format sounds "less annoying", that means firstly that the overall distortion of the playback chain, starting with the reading of the physical file on the disc, is different; and that the distortion of the chain using the SACD player is subjectively less disturbing.

 

No CD should be "annoying" to listen to. My approach to getting digital right is very simple - if I make some changes, and a marginal disc now sounds fine, I then steadily go through my pile of difficult recordings. If every one of them does well, I'm in a good place - if at least one is still sour, that then becomes the measuring stick for making the next move.

[sandyk]

13 hours ago, One and a half said:

No, the original purchased CD or SACD with jewel box, glossy paper et al, played in an appropriate player like in my profile. when a DSD_DISC is created, the dsf sounds better on the SACD player than they do from digital chain from computer and IT network. By better I mean less annoying to listen to.

 

 Has this situation improved since your recent earthing improvements in your PC  ?

Playing DSD via the Network opens up another can of worms that you may need to further address.. 😉

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

So, the mastering as far as the music is concerned is identical - the actual music content is the same. If one format sounds "less annoying", that means firstly that the overall distortion of the playback chain, starting with the reading of the physical file on the disc, is different; and that the distortion of the chain using the SACD player is subjectively less disturbing.

 

No CD should be "annoying" to listen to. My approach to getting digital right is very simple - if I make some changes, and a marginal disc now sounds fine, I then steadily go through my pile of difficult recordings. If every one of them does well, I'm in a good place - if at least one is still sour, that then becomes the measuring stick for making the next move.

Too simplistic and grossly inaccurate (no surprises here). Mastering for CD and LP is different, heard of RIAA curve? 

[fas42]

6 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Too simplistic and grossly inaccurate (no surprises here). Mastering for CD and LP is different, heard of RIAA curve? 

 

I'm talking about the mastering for CD, versus SACD, okay? No LP's were involved, it wasn't part of what my post was about.

[kumakuma]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I'm talking about the mastering for CD, versus SACD, okay?

 

As I said already, these are rarely the same.

[jabbr]

14 hours ago, One and a half said:

No, the original purchased CD or SACD with jewel box, glossy paper et al, played in an appropriate player like in my profile. when a DSD_DISC is created, the dsf sounds better on the SACD player than they do from digital chain from computer and IT network. By better I mean less annoying to listen to.

Some of us prefer to play the DSF files through HQPlayer and prefer this. There are so many different ways to play music and there are so many different auditory preferences that each person can do something as they prefer.

 

Of course being a physical CD or DSD or SACD makes the bits none the less digital.

[fas42]

29 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

As I said already, these are rarely the same.

 

@One and a half is talking of generating a DSD_DISC from the contents of the CD, and that when playing the dsf that it "sounds better on the SACD player" - same mastering.

[kumakuma]

34 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

@One and a half is talking of generating a DSD_DISC from the contents of the CD, and that when playing the dsf that it "sounds better on the SACD player" - same mastering.

 

That isn't how I interpreted it. I think he is referring to creating an SACD from DSF files.

[sandyk]

43 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Of course being a physical CD or DSD or SACD makes the bits none the less digital.

 

Jon 

Are you doubting that Gary is hearing the exact same bits whether played directly from the disc or over his network ?

Perhaps you are insinuating that his SACD player MUST have a higher quality Analogue output  stage ? 

 

BTW,  For those of you who insist that LP sounds better than Digital, and you have the LP of Norah Jones-Come Away With Me., compare the attached with your vinyl playback.
IF the LP sounds better, then you have REAL problems in your digital area !!! 

You will need to download the file and play using high quality S/W such as JRiver 26

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwmqtvh3wqflqbx/05.Come AwayWith Me.zip?dl=0

[jabbr]

19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Jon 

Are you doubting that Gary is hearing the exact same bits whether played directly from the disc or over his network ?

Perhaps you are insinuating that his SACD player MUST have a higher quality Analogue output  stage ? 

 

I don't doubt his preference, but my system and preferences are different. To each his own.

 

FWIW each DAC uses its own filters, and HQPlayer has its own  filters, so there is no reason to expect that the analogue output will ever be the same.

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

Jon 

Are you doubting that Gary is hearing the exact same bits whether played directly from the disc or over his network ?

Perhaps you are insinuating that his SACD player MUST have a higher quality Analogue output  stage ? 

 

BTW,  For those of you who insist that LP sounds better than Digital, and you have the LP of Norah Jones-Come Away With Me., compare the attached with your vinyl playback.
IF the LP sounds better, then you have REAL problems in your digital area !!! 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwmqtvh3wqflqbx/05.Come AwayWith Me.zip?dl=0

I did an lp v CD of this album a while back, lp won easily. Which version is this file sourced from? Some say the AP SACD matches the vinyl. 

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, Rexp said:

I did an lp v CD of this album a while back, lp won easily. Which version is this file sourced from? Some say the AP SACD matches the vinyl. 

 

This was sourced from the RBCD track of the Blue Note SACD 7243 5 41747 2 8 , and was a fresh rip after improving the earthing area of my PC as recommended by one and a half

 

If this doesn't crap all over the LP, then you either prefer colouration, or you need to spend almost as much on your digital area as you have on your vinyl gear. 😋

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

I don't doubt his preference, but my system and preferences are different. To each his own.

 

FWIW each DAC uses its own filters, and HQPlayer has its own  filters, so there is no reason to expect that the analogue output will ever be the same.

 I was under the impression that the goal was to achieve results that accurately reflected the intentions of the Mastering Engineer, not just something more pleasing to some.

[Rexp]

17 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

This was sourced from the RBCD track of the Blue Note SACD 7243 5 41747 2 8 , and was a fresh rip after improving the earthing area of my PC as recommended by one and a half

 

If this doesn't crap all over the LP, then you either like colouration, or you need to spend almost as much on your digital area as you have on your vinyl gear. 😋

The question is, is this RBCD version ever going to sound good or is distortion baked into it. 

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

@One and a half is talking of generating a DSD_DISC from the contents of the CD, and that when playing the dsf that it "sounds better on the SACD player" - same mastering.

A DSD_DISC is a DVD-R copied with DSD files, specifically .DSF format. It can be read by (most) Sony SACD, Accuphase, maybe Marantz. The disc has no redbook content whatsover as PCM files cannot be read.

DSDDiscFormatSpecs.pdf

[One and a half]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

Some of us prefer to play the DSF files through HQPlayer and prefer this. There are so many different ways to play music and there are so many different auditory preferences that each person can do something as they prefer.

 

Of course being a physical CD or DSD or SACD makes the bits none the less digital.

With computer playback, there's the added bonus of transmission noise to listen to