Analog: Still Better?

[fas42]

1 minute ago, One and a half said:

A DSD_DISC is a DVD-R copied with DSD files, specifically .DSF format. It can be read by (most) Sony SACD, Accuphase, maybe Marantz. The disc has no redbook content whatsover as PCM files cannot be read.

DSDDiscFormatSpecs.pdf 94.77 kB · 0 downloads

 

But one can convert RB files to DSF files, which is why I asked the question,

 

Quote

Let's say I rip the contents of a so-so CD track, do an optimum conversion of that data to the SACD format, and burn it onto a disc - and play both the original CD, and the new SACD on your chain - will they sound identical, or will one be "better" than the other?

 

Your answer didn't clarify what your thoughts about this were ...

[GUTB]

Welp...my adventure in digital on pause again for another reason -- I somehow damaged my poor Stratos. Probably due to yanking out the interconnects foolishlessly followed by loud popping noises through the speakers and the fragrant smell of BURNING ELECTRONICS. Heavy distortion through one channel. Wasted the better part of yesterday figuring that out of course. And now a channel imbalance is evident...hope it's not my ProAc  Sigh. I went and placed an order for a Niam NAD200 clone from Aliexpress, delivered for $330. Just a stopgap because I don't know how long it'll be before I get a serious amp upgrade. Right now I pressed the PC's Cherry amp into service, just barely enough to power the ProAcs. One of the best class D amps I've heard, it uses a proprietary circuit that achieves bandwidth higher than a class Ds can usually handle, but it still isn't the equal of my Stratos which paired with the ProAcs so well.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

The question is, is this RBCD version ever going to sound good or is distortion baked into it. 

 

 That depends mainly on the Mastering Engineer and the intended market

 Try downloading my example as suggested, and if your Digital side is good enough it should outperform the Vinyl version with it's of necessity vastly inferior channel separation, much poorer S/N, Wow and Flutter, etc., etc. as well as modified low end to prevent groove width problems . The HF part will depend on how many times you have played it too.

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

But one can convert RB files to DSF files, which is why I asked the question,

 

 

Your answer didn't clarify what your thoughts about this were ...

One can also rip an SACD ISO or download DSF to create a DSD_DISC, brew your own playlist just as simple as a CD. It is not necessary or desirable to convert to PCM (Rebook) to do so.

[sandyk]

27 minutes ago, One and a half said:

One can also rip an SACD ISO or download DSF to create a DSD_DISC, brew your own playlist just as simple as a CD. It is not necessary or desirable to convert to PCM (Rebook) to do so.

 

 Unfortunately, not all hardware players will play those. I had to use unofficial S/W to enable my Oppo 103 to play them,

 I still preferred the RBCD of Love Over Gold though. I suspect that it was due to the out of band HF residual  of the SACD.

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

This was sourced from the RBCD track of the Blue Note SACD 7243 5 41747 2 8 , and was a fresh rip after improving the earthing area of my PC as recommended by one and a half

 

If this doesn't crap all over the LP, then you either prefer colouration, or you need to spend almost as much on your digital area as you have on your vinyl gear. 😋

Come away with me has 95 versions according to discogs.  The SACD I have is from Japan, mastered by Mark wilder at Sony Studios NYC, the AP version was engineered by Kevin Gray at Coherent Audio. The LP is from Blue note EU 243-5-32088-1 2004, probably re-issued. Been a while since I compared the two, but would rather the AP LP instead, although the EU LP is a pleasant listen.

[One and a half]

36 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Unfortunately, not all hardware players will play those. I had to use unofficial S/W to enable my Oppo 103 to play them,

 I still preferred the RBCD of Love Over Gold though. I suspect that it was due to the out of band HF residual  of the SACD.

Naww, it's 80's horrid drum machines.... sound bad any time, hopefully all of these are now deceased along with Betamax and VHS video, Laserdisc, composite 240 line video.....

[sandyk]

39 minutes ago, One and a half said:

The LP is from Blue note EU 243-5-32088-1 2004, probably re-issued

 

 In which case it is probably derived from the same master as my Hybrid SACD that I uploaded the track from. 

 Unfortunately, the UL doesn't sound as good, even after downloading again, as the original source track. 

Norah Jones ‎– Come Away With Me

Label:

Blue Note ‎– 7243 5 41747 2 8

Format:

SACD, Album, Hybrid, Multichannel

Country:

US

Released:

2003

Genre:

Jazz

Style:

Contemporary Jazz

 

[Rexp]

29 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 In which case it is probably derived from the same master as my Hybrid SACD that I uploaded the track from. 

 Unfortunately, the UL doesn't sound as good, even after downloading again, as the original source track. 

Norah Jones ‎– Come Away With Me

Label:

Blue Note ‎– 7243 5 41747 2 8

Format:

SACD, Album, Hybrid, Multichannel

Country:

US

Released:

2003

Genre:

Jazz

Style:

Contemporary Jazz

 

Apparently the Bluenote SACD came from the Redbook (shock horror), whereas the vinyl and AP SACD came from the Analog master. 

[sandyk]

20 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Apparently the Bluenote SACD came from the Redbook (shock horror), whereas the vinyl and AP SACD came from the Analog master. 

 The attached is VERY interesting !

 Where is the normal RBCD  HF roll off BEFORE 22kHz ???

[Rexp]

This is what I got

[sandyk]

This is what I meant about the look of a typical CD.(Fleetwood Mac-Dreams)

Note the roll off well before 22kHz

( Click on my images a few times to get a full screen image)

[Rexp]

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

This is what I meant about the look of a typical CD.(Fleetwood Mac-Dreams)

Note the roll off well before 22kHz

Yes I got that, my plot says the same occurs with your file, doesn't it? 

 

Or have I lost the plot? 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Yes I got that, my plot says the same occurs with your file, doesn't it? 

 

Or have I lost the plot? 

Have you tried using the file that I uploaded ?

 Yours appears to have a premature HF roll off. Perhaps due to being processed, or a very different copy.

[Rexp]

29 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Have you tried using the file that I uploaded ?

 Yours appears to have a premature HF roll off. Perhaps due to being processed, or a very different copy.

That is the file you uploaded.. 

[sandyk]

Then perhaps our settings are calibrated differently ?

 I normally don't see anything past much more than 19kHz with most RBCD albums , just like Dreams that I showed.

 

G'night !

[Rexp]

The AP DSD and FLAC versions are now available from Acoustic Sounds, would like to compare but unfortunately not available outside US/Canada. 

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/93692/Norah_Jones-Come_Away_With_Me-DSD_Single_Rate_28MHz64fs_Download

[botrytis]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

With computer playback, there's the added bonus of transmission noise to listen to

 

Same with analog - scratches, dirt, static, pops, hum, vibration, and of course if using low output cartridges amplification of noise from that.

 

People seem to overlook that noise due to emotional attachment to analog (being brought up with it).

 

 

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, One and a half said:

With computer playback, there's the added bonus of transmission noise to listen to

 

If you are having problems with transmission line noise its best not to use them!

[GUTB]

There's an MQA version of Come Away With Me (192/24). I'm running a Mytek Liberty which fully supports MQA (unfolding and rendering). Right now I'm streaming it from Roon via my Paul Pang USB in my dedicated audio server to the Liberty directly. Listening with Fostex TH900 with Mjolnir 2. The headphone system is not running off my listening room's balanced power transformer but rather off an Emotiva filtered power bar. 

 

Impressions of this album so far is Norah's voice is perhaps a little too hot / forward, I think that's a mastering choice as I'd imagine the engineer wanted it to sound good in non-audiophile systems.Are the instruments electronically produced? I'm not detecting a wide soundstage, but bearing in mind the TH900 doesn't have a particularly wide presentation. Although there does seem some parts in which the instruments seem to have a soundstage.

[ASRMichael]

Relevant to this thread. PS Audio interview with mastering engineer

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

Impressions of this album so far is Norah's voice is perhaps a little too hot / forward,

 How do you find the track that I uploaded  in that respect ?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwmqtvh3wqflqbx/05.Come AwayWith Me.zip?dl=0

 

[One and a half]

10 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Same with analog - scratches, dirt, static, pops, hum, vibration, and of course if using low output cartridges amplification of noise from that.

 

People seem to overlook that noise due to emotional attachment to analog (being brought up with it).

 

 

I thought that after ditching my vinyl collection in the mid 80's, problem was apart from a wipe before playing, that's all I did. Records need to be cleaned, and they don't suffer the funny noises. My gets my goat are new LPs out of the sleeve that are covered in crap at the factory and the crappy paper sleeves that leach fibres into the grooves. This bad habit is narrowed down to EU origin, isn't there a Czech plant. There's no problem with MFSL, Decca releases, well so far.

 

As far as electrical interference is concerned, cabling and proximity need attention and this works. I don't use an MC, so have not experienced trauma with this yet. Low level amplification applies equally to digital, where PSU noise can and does cause problems.

[One and a half]

8 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

If you are having problems with transmission line noise its best not to use them!

By transmission of digital signals includes the source interface (USB, Ethernet), tortuous path of various reclocker/fixers, cables and power supplies to drive them all. It's difficult to argue the point where the source has infinite sample rate of an AC voltage over a (relatively short) distance).

It's easy to generalise though, there are exceptions everywhere. 

[One and a half]

6 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Relevant to this thread. PS Audio interview with mastering engineer

 

 

 

 

 

Hear, Hear!