Analog: Still Better?

[One and a half]

13 hours ago, fas42 said:

That Swing Out Sister, Where in the World, track would be as good as any to work with - the CD sounding dull is a giveaway that the playback chain is not up to scratch ... rather than bouncing around, trying to find music that sounds goods on say digital, stick with a certain track, and use that as a reference for how you're faring - keep trying things until that particular tracks starts to come good; matches how you know it can sound, on another medium.

 

The key point is, all digital tracks should sound as good as, or better than LP versions - if they don't, that means there's a weakness in the chain; the big trick is to track down the culprit(s).

You haven't considered the source . The playback chain is fine, plays SACD without a problem and those CD that are up to it, also with no side effects.

[davide256]

you can say what you like about the two. For me what matters is that 20 years from now my Phil Collins digital media will play back better than they do today

and my Phil Collins vinyl recordings will be much the worse for wear. My only sadness is over analog recordings that don't make it over well to digital;

the CD version of Sheffield's "West of Oz" is just a pale ghost of the original direct to disc.

[GUTB]

2 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

An honorable quest but all I see is noise.

 

1 hour ago, JoeWhip said:

Do we need another thread like this? Listen to whatever the hell you like. 

 

These responses are good for upvotes, but are useless to audiophiles. Audiphiles place a high value on sound quality and if we could be happy with a car stereo and Echoes we wouldn't need to make threads like this.

 

Figuring out digital vs analog is a major topic. I'm told by experienced audiophiles that digital isn't a dead end. Okay, I don't want to give up on it either. If there's a way I can get digital sound which at least approaches my analog I'll gladly demote the record playing for a select few of my finest pieces when I feel like it...but only if I can do it without spending $30k on a Taiko.

[davide256]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

 

These responses are good for upvotes, but are useless to audiophiles. Audiphiles place a high value on sound quality and if we could be happy with a car stereo and Echoes we wouldn't need to make threads like this.

 

Figuring out digital vs analog is a major topic. I'm told by experienced audiophiles that digital isn't a dead end. Okay, I don't want to give up on it either. If there's a way I can get digital sound which at least approaches my analog I'll gladly demote the record playing for a select few of my finest pieces when I feel like it...but only if I can do it without spending $30k on a Taiko.

Ok, got to ask you on this one. You show no vinyl playback solution in your profile. what are you using as  vinyl reference point?

 

PS completely unrelated, are you happy with the Stratos amp? Thinking about purchasing one as a good match for Maggie 1.7's

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Figuring out digital vs analog is a major topic.

When you have a definitive answer, I'll pay attention. 

[ASRMichael]

Having been through a two year journey, moving away from vinyl to digital I know how hard it is to get to vinyl quality & beyond. 
 

I was using SME 20/3 TT, with mods & upgraded PSU. Van de hul XPG Colibri cartridge, ASR Basis Exclusive phono stage. High quality cables.
 

I decided to move to digital, why? I like when new music comes along, so I would purchase a lot of new vinyl. Problem was I just could not bear the terrible sound quality coming from newly released vinyl. Only 1 out of 30 records sounded any good. 
 

So my journey began with digital. Early days it sounded terrible compared to my vinyl setup but after two years of being on this forum & learning what needed to be achieved before digital would get close. I think I’ve finally managed it. If anything I would say I’m more satisfied now than  I was (yes I had my vinyl rig set up properly). I’ll never really know to be honest as I can’t compare, as I’ve sold my TT. 
 

I really didn’t appreciate I would have to spend so much time & money to get there. Now turned into a hobby, which I’m trying to get away from. 
 

I’ve kept my vinyl collection just in case I add a TT in future! 😂

[botrytis]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

No that's digital for laptops and ear buds.

 

And for expensive TT's. Except the digital doesn't usually have a hum, pops, or vibrations.

[botrytis]

6 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Having been through a two year journey, moving away from vinyl to digital I know how hard it is to get to vinyl quality & beyond. 
 

I was using SME 20/3 TT, with mods & upgraded PSU. Van de hul XPG Colibri cartridge, ASR Basis Exclusive phono stage. High quality cables.
 

I decided to move to digital, why? I like when new music comes along, so I would purchase a lot of new vinyl. Problem was I just could not bear the terrible sound quality coming from newly released vinyl. Only 1 out of 30 records sounded any good. 
 

So my journey began with digital. Early days it sounded terrible compared to my vinyl setup but after two years of being on this forum & learning what needed to be achieved before digital would get close. I think I’ve finally managed it. If anything I would say I’m more satisfied now than  I was (yes I had my vinyl rig set up properly). I’ll never really know to be honest as I can’t compare, as I’ve sold my TT. 
 

I really didn’t appreciate I would have to spend so much time & money to get there. Now turned into a hobby, which I’m trying to get away from. 
 

I’ve kept my vinyl collection just in case I add a TT in future! 😂

Try moving 3K LP's..... your back issues will make you appreciate digital more and more

 

Planning to do this again. I think I may be a little crazy......

[JoeWhip]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

 

These responses are good for upvotes, but are useless to audiophiles. Audiphiles place a high value on sound quality and if we could be happy with a car stereo and Echoes we wouldn't need to make threads like this.

 

Figuring out digital vs analog is a major topic. I'm told by experienced audiophiles that digital isn't a dead end. Okay, I don't want to give up on it either. If there's a way I can get digital sound which at least approaches my analog I'll gladly demote the record playing for a select few of my finest pieces when I feel like it...but only if I can do it without spending $30k on a Taiko.

I now listen exclusively to digital. The LPs I really want to listen to we do needle drops at 24/96. My digital sounds fantastic. Open, smooth, three dimensional, meaty,  you name it. Macbook right into an Yggy via Unison. You do not need a Taiko to get incredible digital sound. My point is that vinyl and digital can both sound great. This has been discussed over and over. Just try another DAC.

[sandyk]

9 hours ago, One and a half said:

Well Youtube need to pick up their game, oh wait, you have to pay for that, will that give at least 20-20k bandwidth, probably not.

Gary

 What you heard was from the 0x0002 529kb/s .aac Subscription audio stream that can be extracted after downloading the video with suitable Video S/W.

Compare that sound with the direct video that I posted. Would you rather  base a CD purchasing decision on the video alone , or from the 529kb/s stream to try and see if it sounds worthwhile ?

 

Alex

 

 

[fas42]

6 hours ago, One and a half said:

You haven't considered the source . The playback chain is fine, plays SACD without a problem and those CD that are up to it, also with no side effects.

 

Source as in, the data encoded in the medium's format? Let's say I rip the contents of a so-so CD track, do an optimum conversion of that data to the SACD format, and burn it onto a disc - and play both the original CD, and the new SACD on your chain - will they sound identical, or will one be "better" than the other?

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Source as in, the data encoded in the medium's format? Let's say I rip the contents of a so-so CD track, do an optimum conversion of that data to the SACD format, and burn it onto a disc - and play both the original CD, and the new SACD on your chain - will they sound identical, or will one be "better" than the other?

 

This question is meaningless as, in my experience, the masterings of CD and SACD releases of the same album are rarely the same.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

This question is meaningless as, in my experience, the masterings of CD and SACD releases of the same album are rarely the same.

 

Yeah. The SACD has a lot of out of band HF rubbish, with in quite a few cases no further HF detail than the CD version 😋

Quite a few members (and especially several ex members) appear to believe that the human ear isn't capable of hearing any further HF detail than available on CD anyway other than perhaps some young females 😄

[fas42]

13 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

This question is meaningless as, in my experience, the masterings of CD and SACD releases of the same album are rarely the same.

 

I'm thinking of the point that CDs sound 'dull' compared to the LP version - an extremely common comment in years gone by. I have certainly experienced listless, boring digital replay far, far too often over the years - IME, this is all about sub-par replay chains - fix the issues, and that "useless!" CD comes alive  ...

[fas42]

Also connected with "what is better", is this mysterious, "noise floor". I have just come across this post by @JohnSwenson, which to me pretty well nails what this strange thing is ...

 

 

[GUTB]

8 hours ago, davide256 said:

Ok, got to ask you on this one. You show no vinyl playback solution in your profile. what are you using as  vinyl reference point?

 

PS completely unrelated, are you happy with the Stratos amp? Thinking about purchasing one as a good match for Maggie 1.7's

 

Triangle Art Concerto upgraded to a Maestro platter and Triangle Art speed controller. Triangle Art Zeus cartridge on a Reed 2A arm. Custom Hashimoto SUT. Chinese tubed phono, forget the brand right now, it was a cheap clone of some old famous brand.

Triangle Arts purchased at show prices and dealing directly with the manufacturer:  Concerto + platter upgrade $2000, speed controller $2000, Zeus MC $2000. Reed 2A used $2000. Hashimoto SUT from private builder on ebay $1000. Chinese phono approx. $400 + a few hundred more on NOS tubes. Oh, and I broke down and bought a SMARTractor for $600, I was surprised how off my alignments were prior. 

[GUTB]

In regards to disc playback, I've been "impressed" only a few times. One of those was a European CD player...trying to remember what it was for the life of me, I remember them showing off a demag / ionozing treatment process and the sounds produced was actually very impressive. Someone know which manufacturer I'm talking about??

 

Another one was an Esoteric room at an audio show. They were playing a SACD on a system I forget except the chain was completely Esoteric. I remember that especially because the Schiit room was right next door and it stuck with me how completely the Esoteric destroyed the Schiit system. I wonder if the Schiit system could have benefited greatly from power conditioning.

[fas42]

43 minutes ago, GUTB said:

In regards to disc playback, I've been "impressed" only a few times. One of those was a European CD player...trying to remember what it was for the life of me, I remember them showing off a demag / ionozing treatment process and the sounds produced was actually very impressive. Someone know which manufacturer I'm talking about??

 

Big Hint: digital SQ suffers when static buildup occurs, and is not handled in some manner. Best solution is to carefully investigate every area of the rig, and use whatever treatments, adjustments, and organising that prevent, or control charging behaviours.

 

Quote

 

Another one was an Esoteric room at an audio show. They were playing a SACD on a system I forget except the chain was completely Esoteric. I remember that especially because the Schiit room was right next door and it stuck with me how completely the Esoteric destroyed the Schiit system. I wonder if the Schiit system could have benefited greatly from power conditioning.

 

Did the Esoteric room use sophisticated power conditioning? For many digital systems it can mean the difference between entrancing - and unlistenable ...

[dminches]

10 hours ago, davide256 said:

you can say what you like about the two. For me what matters is that 20 years from now my Phil Collins digital media will play back better than they do today

and my Phil Collins vinyl recordings will be much the worse for wear. My only sadness is over analog recordings that don't make it over well to digital;

the CD version of Sheffield's "West of Oz" is just a pale ghost of the original direct to disc.

 

I have LPs which I bought in the mid 70s which still sound great.  And 45 years ago I didn’t have an audiophile vinyl setup.  If you take care of your records they will last a lifetime.

 

Plus, I am not going to base my decision on what to listen to on a guess as to what will be here in 20 years.

 

 

[Rexp]

12 minutes ago, dminches said:

 

I have LPs which I bought in the mid 70s which still sound great.  And 45 years ago I didn’t have an audiophile vinyl setup.  If you take care of your records they will last a lifetime.

 

Plus, I am not going to base my decision on what to listen to on a guess as to what will be here in 20 years.

 

 

Would love to know your take on Analog v Digital, I have heard the Pacific DAC at shows and it sounded very good in combination with the Lampizator server. 

[dminches]

41 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Would love to know your take on Analog v Digital, I have heard the Pacific DAC at shows and it sounded very good in combination with the Lampizator server. 

 

I enjoy both formats.  I listen to reels, LPs and digital files.  I prefer analog but after getting the Pacific and the Sean Jacobs DC4 for my server I am enjoying digital more and more.

 

I don’t know why people argue as to which one is “better.”  People should just listen to what they like.

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Big Hint: digital SQ suffers when static buildup occurs, and is not handled in some manner. Best solution is to carefully investigate every area of the rig, and use whatever treatments, adjustments, and organising that prevent, or control charging behaviours.

 

 Huh ??? 

Did you rub the CDs first with a polyester jumper ?  😁

Several years ago Silverlight (Geoff) from NYC did a series of tests with me including Cleaning fluids ,demagnetising ,deionising etc.

 yet we both preferred the uploaded version where the CD was cleaned with warm soapy water and rinsed  properly.

 BTW, many members spend only a fraction of the amount on the digital side compared with what they spend on TTs ,stand alone Low noise RIAA Preamps  and high quality cartridges etc. then blame the digital side.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Huh ??? 

Did you rub the CDs first with a polyester jumper ?  😁

Several years ago Silverlight (Geoff) from NYC did a series of tests with me including Cleaning fluids ,demagnetising ,deionising etc.

 yet we both preferred the uploaded version where the CD was cleaned with warm soapy water and rinsed  properly.

 BTW, many members spend only a fraction of the amount on the digital side compared with what they spend on TTs ,stand alone Low noise RIAA Preamps  and high quality cartridges etc. then blame the digital side.

 

Well, at one stage I worked out a whole ritual of how a CD was taken from its case, and placed in the player, and how play was started 😁 - to minimise chances of static being transferred to the disc. For example, I used a version of this in the NAD CDP, in the setup of a year or so ago. Did it make a difference? A couple of times it seemed to help - so I kept it up ... no rigorous testing, though.

 

From how the mains plugs are inserted in the wall socket, through to the mounting of the speakers, static might cause an issue - I assume that any and everything could play a role; until I convince myself that no change can be heard when I try varying something.

 

I haven't spent much money - but I've spent a huge amount of time, over the years, doing little experiments "to see if something mattered" - this has taught me a lot, and means that zero cost, or close to it, tweaking gets me a long way towards the sound I'm after.

[sandyk]

29 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Well, at one stage I worked out a whole ritual of how a CD was taken from its case, and placed in the player, and how play was started 😁 - to minimise chances of static being transferred to the disc. For example, I used a version of this in the NAD CDP, in the setup of a year or so ago. Did it make a difference? A couple of times it seemed to help - so I kept it up ... no rigorous testing, though.

 

From how the mains plugs are inserted in the wall socket, through to the mounting of the speakers, static might cause an issue - I assume that any and everything could play a role; until I convince myself that no change can be heard when I try varying something.

 

 How can any static electricity on a disc affect a Laser Diode or the mechanism unless the CD is poorly held in place ?

 

 Static from the above stated by you is unlikely to be generated unless there is a poor connection, and this would be even worse with low level analogue sources such as LP..

You can do better than that Frank !  😄

[fas42]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 How can any static electricity on a disc affect a Laser Diode or the mechanism unless the CD is poorly held in place ?

 

 Static from the above stated by you is unlikely to be generated unless there is a poor connection, and this would be even worse with low level analogue sources such as LP..

You can do better than that Frank !  😄

 

Alex, the first thing I worry about is whether something affects the SQ. And if it does, then I do something about it. The why there is an effect, well ... I might worry about that, sometime down the track 😉.

 

Static effects are a mongrel - I can do "crazy things", and have the SQ degrade, or pick up again. The literature is extremely poor on analysing static, mainly because no-one really understands it! Sure, there's tonnes of material on how to combat it, and how to use it for doing something - but as for predicting whether static will occur or impact in some situation, with a decent hit rate ... you've got Buckley's! 😁