Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[ray-dude]

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[ray-dude]

Thank you Rajiv, and thank you everyone for being so gracious and engaged this past week!  

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, basillus said:

Fantastic, the best review I've ever read.

The Poweradd Pro battery banks you use are with their original switchmode psues? Asking because if it was me I would probably prefer that your internet Alcatel box is always connected to power (without having to take off the power bank's smps, when listening), so here I would probably try using a linear psu to power the powerbank, if possible?

 

It turns out that the PP2 batteries run just fine when plugged in and charging.  Basically, the one in my bedroom closet is a 16V energizing supply for the dual regulated DXP supply outputting 12V.  For really critical listening, I can unplug the SMPS that is charging the PP2 and get maybe 7-8 hours on a charge (way more than a typical critical listening session)

 

When I was leveraging the PP2's for USB and dual BNC optimization, having them disconnected from mains/charging supply was very audible (presumably from mains isolation).  I'm in the process of moving to a dual EdgeRouter X SFP setup (audio network isolated on one ERX, rest of my home network on the other), so I have not yet done that experiment with the PP2 at my networking gear.

 

Still very much in flux (I'm experimenting with VLANs), but my eventual goal is to use a fiber link to galvanically isolate my home network/WiFi from the audio network...just not quite there yet.  When this settles out, I'll come back to tweak up the power to the ONT/audio ERXSFP.  Below is the current "live" snap shot of where I am.

 

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

It looks like your design decision has added ernormous value to the DAVE, due to the replacement of Pre amp and Power Amp, in collaboration with the hyper effiency of the 9.87's.

I would wonder if you could - when it comes to SQ - put a percentage on the component's impact to the performance (Speakers, DAC, Streamer, Cables, Network, Power supply)? From the visual on the Voxativ home page I didn't notice special room treatment, so I excluded the room from that equation. 

Finally, I'd like to ask if you see room for further improvement on the DAC / Amp side of your wonderful and impressive system or would  this move destroy your design principles?

 

Indeed, when I moved from my beloved B&W 802d3's (I literally had dreamed of 8XX series speakers for decades) to the 9.87's, I was able to cost justify it by the savings with the amp/preamp.  I was just giving up too much transparency with an amp and cross overs in the chain.

 

I am always interested in hearing new DACs.  As you may have surmised, I have hyper optimized my system around core reference anchors (first DAVE, then the Voxativs, now the Extreme) and tried to minimize everything else that could take away from those true references.  I've heard other DACs in show settings and in dealer rooms and they are spectacular, but I have yet to hear one that gives me the sense of being with real musicians like the Chord DACs (esp. DAVE).  I am open minded, esp. with something like Extreme in the chain, that there will be a synergy that is special with another DAC (similarly, with a traditional amp/speaker setup).  The cycle doesn't end, it just pauses, then you build on new strengths to see if there is more to be found in these recordings.

 

I have not (yet) moved into room treatments.  Part of this is practicalities (smaller home, shared space, etc), part of it is to avoid premature optimization.  I'm very fortunate to have a room geometry with a vaulted ceiling, and floor to ceiling book shelves, so a lot of the natural boom is already mitigated (that has removed urgency and allowed me to be patient).  With these core reference anchors in place, my next focus will be digital room correction, which will inform macro room changes or targeted treatments to supplement the DRC.  Looking forward to that project actually (it's been in the queue for a very long time).

[ray-dude]

Arthur, I have not heard HQP 3.x (I run 4.x)  I'm an unabashed snob for the sinc-M filter from my Chord indoctrination, so I'm limited to 4.x.  I know Emile has a fondness for 3.x, but I don't think he has spent too much time with 4.x.  

 

Perhaps you could test 3.x vs 4.x using the 30 minute trial mode that Jussi provides?  (my ear is trained for the sinc-M filter, so that A/B would be harder for me to do)

[ray-dude]

99% 2 channel through DAVE.  Adding TT2 to my headphone setup is a very recent thing, so I can't give a definitive comparative answer vs the NUC side.  Part of this iteration of my system cycle was to leverage the Monoprice slim run to run a long USB length from the Extreme to the TT2 on the end table next to my sofa (vs playing from laptop to TT2 to headphones).

 

Taking a step back, I do wonder how much of the incredible dynamics I'm hearing is because I have ultra-minimal paths between DAC and transducer (whether speakers or headphones), and how much could I be hearing this stuff if I had a more traditional setup with amp and regular speakers, or headphone amp and headphones?  At some point, I'm sure the siren song of big speakers and even bigger amps will draw me back in.  For now, I'm intentionally in denial (at least until my younger one gets through college

 

[ray-dude]

2 hours ago, Axial said:

For casual readers (AS) it demands a dose of reality, a balance of perspective, a double look @ our bank statement. It's normal, we don't wear high heeled shoes...nowadays we wear masks and collect stimulus cheques. 

 

Thank you for the thoughtful note.

 

I do believe there are a LOT of trickle down ideas from the Extreme that can help folks improve their systems.  Each piece was taken to an extreme (and the whole definitely feels greater than the sum of its parts), but each piece may be worth a look.  I'm guessing I wouldn't have to take off my mittens to count the folks that may actually purchase one of the beasts after reading this, but I was hoping there would be value in putting it out there as inspiration for folks that are looking to improve their own setups.

 

For example, the amazing USB performance of the Extreme has at its heart the ASMedia 3142 chip set on the ASUS motherboard.  No fancy clocks, motherboard power, etc.  Even with that generic implementation, the incredible SOtM tX-USBultra SE with a Paul Hynes SR4 powering it made things worse.  There are PCIe USB cards out there for <$100 built around the ASMedia 3142.  May be worthwhile for DIYers to experiment with one?  I believe the JCAT XE USB card is built around the same chip set.  Great upgrade opportunity if you want that chipset with the ability to give it clean power?  I'm certainly paying very close attention to the JCAT XE USB now...

 

Ditto with the incredible focus on vibration and mechanical isolation.  Time to try that giant IKEA bamboo butcher block under a DAC or server?

 

The inspiring thing about the Extreme to me is the incredible attention to every detail.  Each of those details seems like a potential guidepost for folks looking to improve their own digital music servers.  I appreciate people wading through the crazy detail in the review, but the thing that captured (demanded?) my attention were all those design details, and the lessons each one had to share.  I tried to bubble up the ones I found most intriguing

[ray-dude]

17 hours ago, fas42 said:

I suspect you will lose a lot of the magic, unless you have gone through a great deal of optimising of the area between DAC and speakers, via amplifiers, already ... 😉.

 

Would be interesting to find out, of course. 🙂

 

Frank, when all the crazy is less crazy, I'd love to hear what you're hearing...we seem to be striving to summit the same mountain from different routes...

[ray-dude]

On the last day of Extreme Week, and my new Sablon Audio King power cord has arrived.  The loaner Prince cable is long gone so I can't compare directly, but I LOVE what I'm hearing (again).  Thank you Mark!!

[ray-dude]

5 minutes ago, PYP said:

I have to admit that I never thought of eliminating the amp altogether and going straight from DAC to speakers:  ingenious! 

 

It was Roy @romaz that first inspired this, when he discovered the Omega Super Alnico Monitors driven directly from DAVE.  Louis (Omega chief everything) is an incredible gem of a human being, and has a wonderful no questions asked try at home policy for his speakers.  When I first heard the SAMs direct to Hugo2 then DAVE, it was a transformational moment for me.  I consider it a third class of music listening: traditional 2 channel (amp, speakers, etc), headphones, and direct to single driver high efficiency speakers (esp. in near field...OMG!!!).  

 

If you have a DAC that is capable of driving 1-2W into a speaker like load (and the Chord Hugo2 and DAVE and TT2 most definitely are), do yourself a favor and give a listen to something like the SAMs in near field.  The tonal challenges with single driver speakers aren't for everyone, but I found that within a couple days my brain completely adjusted to those, and all I was left with was this incredible holographic presentation that I had never heard before and that I didn't even think was possible with 2 channel. That was my first exposure to "Reality" when listening to 2 channel (hence the "Reality Quest")

 

I ended up replacing basically everything in my audio system after that experience, with the Extreme being the final piece of the equation.

 

 

[ray-dude]

16 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ray, have you ever had the rig go completely invisible, as in, it was impossible to localise the speakers, no matter how hard you tried to detect that it was the drivers in them creating the sound? ... Does this make sense to you?

 

I have Frank, but only with certain recordings.  Binaural recordings in particular become completely holographic (my setup has point source single drivers as sources...this makes sense).  Sound is evenly spread through a full half sphere, and I'm getting maybe 80-90% of the spatial resolution behind me as I am in front of me, and I hear the entire space the recording was made in.  I am physically there in the recording space.

 

This is only for certain recordings though, and how robust this sense of being in a hologram is is very indicative of whether things are getting better or worse (takes maybe 15 seconds of listening...the effect is very ephemeral for me)  When it is dialed in, it is an experience that is something else (and as a live performance junkie, absolutely crack for my brain)

 

As I say, it seems you're striving for the same summit, but from a different side of the mountain.  Would love to hear what you're hearing and see if there is a 1+1=3 hidden in there somewhere

[ray-dude]

28 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I will definitely consider this. I have 110dB horns so a few watts is more than enough to get them going. If nothing else from Extreme week that is a good take away for me. So forgive me if I missed this, but how do you connect the DAC to the speakers. I see the XLR outputs going to the bass modules and the speaker cables to the full range drivers? How do you connect the speaker cables to the DAVE? Thanks

 

The Chord DAVE has both RCA outputs and XLR outputs.  Of the two the RCA outputs are a bit more transparent (couple fewer components in the path).  I have RCA to female banana adapters, and connect those to normal speaker wire.

 

If you just want to experiment, when I first started down this path I snagged some cheapo RCA to banana adapters on Amazon to try.  Once I realized what I was hearing, I made the investment to be able to hear that with Furutech connectors and my preferred speaker cables.

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0176WENRA

 

I should note that the DAVE (and other Chord DACs) have the amp section and digital to analog converter section combined (also used for direct headphone output). That makes it extremely stable and performant driving speaker-like loads.  I have not tried this topology with other DACs that may be expecting a preamp-type load on the output.

[ray-dude]

On 5/22/2020 at 6:51 AM, Nenon said:

Ray - amazing review. Thank you so much for taking the time (a lot of time!) to write this up.

 

The Extreme is an outstanding piece of engineering. I have no doubts it is currently the best sounding music server on the market. 

I have been playing with a DIY server with very similar hardware and got some taste of what the Extreme could do. I will be posting in the Building a DIY Music Server thread how one can passively cool and power those two Xeon CPUs. It's an interesting route for more advanced DIY builders to explore.

 

But having peaked at some Extreme servers, I can definitely say that there is a lot more in the Extreme than the sum of its parts. It is obvious that a lot of listening tests have been done - hundreds or maybe even thousands of hours must have taken place to come up with the optimal custom Windows OS settings. This hardware is so resolving that every single setting matters!

 

@ray-dude Looking at your system and thinking about "Where To Go From Here?". I don't know how well the Dave drives your high sensitive speakers (probably pretty well), but as a SET monoblocks / high sensitive speakers fan, I have a feeling you can do better (at the expense of some purity). You mentioned Sean Jacobs for network equipment, but as far as I know Sean developed his DC4 power supply for the Chord Dave... and then extended the design for other applications. Given that you not only use the Dave as a DAC but as an amplifier as well, the effect of a DC4 in your system might be quite significant. 

Also, I really like the JCAT Signature LAN Cable GOLD network cable. I wonder how it compares to the Sablon in an "Extreme" environment. Maybe @Marcin_gps would agree to send a demo to some Extreme users. On the contrary, it's time for me to try the Sablon ethernet cable in my system as well, as I haven't. 

If I was an Extreme owner, I would not worry about USB cards and such. It's so well tweaked that it can easily be 'disbalanced' by installing any additional software, hardware, drivers, etc. And given its power supply design, it may not be a good idea to introduce another 'external' LPS. Just enjoy it the way it comes would be my advice. You can treat the environment surrounding the Extreme to get the best out of it.

 

Thank you @Nenon!  My journey has been down the road that folks like Roy, Larry, Rajiv, you, and MANY others have blazed.  I hope this series serves as a snap shot in time of the state of the art that folks like you guys and Emile have been advancing.

 

I absolutely agree that the Extreme is much more than the sum of its extraordinary parts.  The more I dig in, the more I see examples of deep design thinking and elegance. The Extreme is a masterclass in digital server design, and truly is Emile's opus.  As much as I love tinkering, except for inputs and outputs, I haven't had the nerve to dive into the myriad of settings and options that Emile has so meticulously tuned.  As you say, remarkable how even the smallest changes are audible.

 

At some point, I will get past my practiced denial of the existence of SET mono blocks (can you imagine someone like tube rolling?). I do know Sean and his work very well (I did not mention it in the review, but I have what I believe to be the second DC3 unit Sean made to power DAVEs).  I'm holding off jumping into the DC4 pond, as I remain (ever) hopeful that Paul will eventually get to my 3x DR SR7 custom order. For any DAVE owners out there, the impact of a supply like the DC3 (and apparently even more so the DC4) on DAVE is even bigger than what I heard with mScaler.

 

Alas, pandemic-induced pragmatics made it very difficult to cajole folks with things like JCAT cables and Femto/XE cards to come over for some fine wine and fine music.  I'm very much looking forward to hearing how these piece of kit work with Extreme. For now, I'm delighted with the Sablon 2020 ethernet cables, and VERY bullish about the combination of ASM 3142 chipset + quality power (JCAT XE USB card) could bring to the party.  I'm eyeing the spare +5V, +12V power connector in the Extreme, and eager to see what Emile may have cooking in the lab.  Once he and the team are able to launch the Extreme Mini, the next phase of the Extreme Project is sure to be a lot of fun!

 

Edit: given the surprising interest in the DAC direct to speakers model, here is my current "As Built", including the Sean Jacobs supply powering my DAVE (like a river, audio systems are forever changing

 

 

[ray-dude]

6 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Its the Minnesotan in me, I have to offset the price of other purchases and have something I can show to others that I bought at a significant discount in relation to other stuff in the chain...  

 

😉

 

I lived in Minnesota for more than a decade so I need to call this out.  Any true Minnesotan is running Class A amps through the long winters (and their spouses and pets love them for it

 

[ray-dude]

BOOM!  Class A SET tube amp on a IKEA butcher block from Sweden...THAT is the Minnesota audiophile standard we signed up for! (pass the lefse!

 

I used to live in Minnesota, but back in San Diego now. Miss it, especially getting out on the lake Memorial Day weekend, but alas not getting back these days. Hope you and yours are safe and healthy and enjoying (finally) summer!

[ray-dude]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

Kidding. I fly out there from time to time. Maybe you can show me the non navy parts of town someday when I am out there.

 

Would love to host an audio night with the local audio crazies...please drop a note when the world is right side up again!

[ray-dude]

Thank you @skatbelt for the thoughtful note. I think you're lasering in on the "Sophie's Choice" with digital audio: isolation and quiet to not disturb the DAC, vs signal precision and speed to not disturb the DAC.  

 

With my dual i7 NUC setup, I was pushing as hard as I could for the former (with EtherREGEN and tX-USBultra SE, although I had not yet jumped into the reference clock world).  My next step was to add a Mutec reference clock, then moving to a better power supply so I could jack the CPU clock higher (there was a very distinct point where higher clock led to worse sound, and the better the supply, the higher that clock rate was).

 

That was part of what led me to explore the high powered server route.  If you have a crazy enough power supply, can it keep the more powerful server under sufficient control to get all that benefit without introducing noise that pulls things down?  That was the initial attraction for the Extreme, was the extreme lengths Emile had gone with the power supply, and to keep actual processing on the Xeons as low as possible.

 

As a practical matter, I'm hearing an aspect of music reproduction with the Extreme that I have never heard before (this is my first experience with a high power server).  That sense of speed and dynamics is off the chart.  Even when I used Extreme as the Roon end point (and my NUC as the Roon server), I was giving a lot of that away.  There is something new going on here I think, but the effort/cost/care that is required to get to it is way out there.  The folks in the DIY server thread are doing very impressive work to edge in that direction.  I would lean on their experience with other high power server options to hear what they are hearing (I would certainly hope and assume that one doesn't have to jump to the Extreme to be able to hear these sorts of benefits)

 

All that being said, I don't think the road has run out on the dual server path either.  I think there are two different roads up the same mountain, each with a long way still in front of them.  I'll certainly be watching with interest as folks push both paths forward, and I'm looking forward to when things open up again so we can experience these things at shows and home listening sessions again (as the man once said "There's a new band in town but you can't get the sound from a story in a magazine...")

 

 

 

[ray-dude]

That’s awesome! I’m glad you’re trying something new and it is working for you!

 

Rob Watts has written extensively about his digital volume control approach. See as a starting point

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-143#post-12429044
 

basically absolutely no issue at low volumes because of the precision of the digital pipeline 

[ray-dude]

4 hours ago, wwc said:

Ray, it sounds like you see a possible upgrade path to the current Extreme usb implementation, as per mention of trying out the cat usb card?  
https://jcat.eu/featured/usb-card-xe/

I am currently using an Ideon 3r between Extreme and DAC to extend the length of short usb cables (Sablon and Intona).

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-usb-renaissance-mk2/

Do you think the Extremes current usb card stands to be complimented by the Ideon or might I be better served with a longer usb cable?   Speculative question, I know...

 

 

I have not heard the Ideon myself (I went from ISORegens to the tX-USBultra). Based on how the SOtM tX-USBultra SE with Paul Hynes SR4 actually was degrade SQ for me(!), I suspect the implementation of the USB PHY on the chipset is having an outsized impact vs reclocking, power, etc.  That is part of what is appealing for me with the JCAT USB XE...same chipset, but with the bonus of better power, etc.

 

Based on the specs and vintage, if I had to guess the Ideon is not using the ASMedia chipset, but as folks on the right side of the pond are fond of saying, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. As always, no substitute for a listening test!

 

My solution to the USB length problem was the Monoprice USB slim.  That may be an alternative to try to see what works best in your chain (and please report back...always keen to find a way to step up the USB ladder!) 

[ray-dude]

13 hours ago, bbosler said:

Ray...

 

Dave ordered

 

appears the difference in the single ended and balanced outputs on the Dave is the XLR out has significantly higher output impedance which is not good for driving speakers..

 

.5 vs 66 ohms

 

sorry if you covered this, but why aren't you using the Chord scaler? Cheap relative to most of your other gear.. 

 

... thanks again

 

I hope you enjoy it, and please report back!

 

I always found better transparency and detail through the RCA output of DAVE to speakers.  I use the XLR outs to the powered Voxativ Pi bass units, so not an issue for me.  Do note that depending on your speakers, you may be wishing for some pop or dynamics going straight from DAVE (I did with my Voxativs).  I ended up getting a Sean Jacobs custom DC3 supply for my DAVE, and it resulted in a (mostly) no compromise experience for me.  Reports from folks with his new DC4 supply is that it is even better still, although I am patiently waiting for my custom Paul Hynes SR7 build for the DAVE power supply upgrade.  Net net, if you love the transparency of going to direct, there are ways to tune up the new paradigm.

 

I have owned and adored the Chord mScaler products (Blu2 then Hugo mScaler).  Hearing 1M tap upscaled music was a revelation, and a clear demarcation line in my audio journey (pre mScaler and post mScaler).  I wrote a lot about that stuff over at Head-Fi.  I recently made the switch to HQPlayer (Jussi added the sinc-M filter and later the 15th order noise shaper).  These are approximating what I heard with mScaler, and getting better over time. 

 

Although I still give a nod to Chord's HW implementation, HQP is pretty good.  For me, I occasionally "burn the ships" as they say, and commit to what I think will be the right long term path (in this case, software upsampling) even if it is a step backwards.  That forces me to learn and optimize and figure out how to take advantage of the different approach.  Moving from the Chord mScalers to HQP has certainly been a burn the ships moment for me (very difficult given how much I love the mScalers...still miss my Blu2!) but I've learned a heck of a lot, and there is a lot more to learn and leverage!  

 

For civilians, the Chord mScalers still have my highest recommendation.  Incredible experience, esp. when you can hear it all going to headphones or direct to speakers!

 

 

[ray-dude]

1 minute ago, bbosler said:

 

so obviously you (somebody) opened up the DAVE and hooked up the linear supply. Did you do this yourself? I'm buying a new one so hesitate to pop the top on a new piece even though completely comfortable doing the electronics work.

 

thanks for doing all of this work, much appreciate your willingness to share

 

I'm going all in with the scaler, but then you have the question of the BNC cables... endless ... as you well know

 

Yes, open the case, couple screws to remove the stock SMPS, connect the power connector to the DAVE PCB.  Completely reversible, takes about 15 minutes because of all the screws. For a new DAVE, obviously has warranty implications and isn't endorsed by Chord, etc.

 

I spent a bunch of time on BNC cables.  I ended up with the following as my preferred:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audiowise-opto•dx-optical-isolation-bridge-for-dual-spdif.23757/reviews#review-22155

 

with Nick's WAVE cables as the top of class for traditional cables.  It's been a while since I've been spending time in that world though...

[ray-dude]

When it's all in house and you've had a chance to listen, please report back!

[ray-dude]

28 minutes ago, bbosler said:

Ray, in preparation for the DAVE, can you tell me what the DC voltage/current it requires if I decide to use a linear supply. Also just ordered the SCR-DX to go with the Opto-DX. If it works as planned a much more economical solution to use HQplayer as you are than the Chord scaler

 

+-15V, +5V.  My Sean Jacobs supply is over-spec'ed to support up to 5A on each rail, which is way more than what the DAVE is consuming, but I never measured what it actually is consuming

 

Love the giant horns!!  

[ray-dude]

I think you'll be shocked at how much tension goes away with a quality supply on the 5V (RF is a bugger).  An alternative is to use the stock DAVE SMPS for the 5V and your Keces for the +-15V.  The stock supply is quite good, but a Sean Jacobs or Paul Hynes is a LOT better.

[ray-dude]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:15 PM, bbosler said:

so here we are, debating on a Paul Hynes supply for the ±15VDC to the DAVE. It is over $1000 more than the Keces.. $1500 vs. $400

 

 

What's to debate?

 

The speed and stability of the PH supplies is outstanding.  You should be able to hear it quite well on the analog outputs stage of DAVE.  I'm am (VERY) patiently waiting for my Paul Hynes SR7 to work its way to the front of the custom build queue, so I'm sticking with my Sean Jacobs DC3 supply for now, but I would love to hear a PH supply on the DAVE.