Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[ray-dude]

View full article

[austinpop]

Wow, Ray, I am speechless! Extreme Week — what an amazing debut as an AS reviewer! You hit it out of the park. 

 

Please keep writing and sharing about your audio journey.

[ray-dude]

Thank you Rajiv, and thank you everyone for being so gracious and engaged this past week!  

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

I would certainly LOVE to get my hands on one. Great information, great review, job well done.

David

[rando]

It's that we must consent

to all extremes of power;

audacity's our problem

despite the grand repentance.

 

And so, it often happens

what we affront will change:

the calm tuns into hurricane

the abyss into an angel's mold.

 

We mustn't dread that curve.

The Organs have to boom

for the music to abound

with all the notes of Love.

 

From translation of Rilke's French Poem "Vergers (Orchards)"   

 

 

Bon bricolage!  Les bons comptes font les bons amis.

[gebeege1]

A tour de force. Passionate, insightful, information packed. Thank you. I'll never be able to afford one but so love the fact that you have it.

[EuroDriver]

Ray,

I am at a loss for for words.  Your review is a reference, and I am sure that I will come back to it time and again

Thank you for this gift !

[onlychild]

This is by far the best review I have ever read (closely followed by AustinPops Chord TT review 😉).  

The fact that you went into all the different variations of setting up and tuning the Extreme is beyond helpful.  
 

I can’t imagine the time and effort that went into this.  Thank you Ray!!👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[basillus]

Fantastic, the best review I've ever read.

The Poweradd Pro battery banks you use are with their original switchmode psues? Asking because if it was me I would probably prefer that your internet Alcatel box is always connected to power (without having to take off the power bank's smps, when listening), so here I would probably try using a linear psu to power the powerbank, if possible?

[DuckToller]

@ray-dude

These are exciting times for Chris publishing a "review" like yours.
Thank you very much, Ray, for the outstanding Top of Class work about an outstanding Top of Class unit (Bravo, Emile!!! For designing and constructing it) I really appreciate yours and Emile's work as I can do that with the work of Dany Wilson or Holger Adler, even I will never own a piece of equipment in that league.
Given the circumstances, I hope that your are well prepared for early retirement, as the AS readers should not need to wait for recurring covidean times to read another review from you. 😉
As others have already mentioned, I also had looked intensivly to solve the riddle of the missing amplifier when I noticed that the 9.87's weren't active. As a consequence of the system configuration, It looks like your design decision has added ernormous value to the DAVE, due to the replacement of Pre amp and Power Amp, in collaboration with the hyper effiency of the 9.87's.

I would wonder if you could - when it comes to SQ - put a percentage on the component's impact to the performance (Speakers, DAC, Streamer, Cables, Network, Power supply)? From the visual on the Voxativ home page I didn't notice special room treatment, so I excluded the room from that equation. 

Finally, I'd like to ask if you see room for further improvement on the DAC / Amp side of your wonderful and impressive system or would  this move destroy your design principles?

All the best & all my respect from the Loire valley
Tom
 

[Nenon]

Ray - amazing review. Thank you so much for taking the time (a lot of time!) to write this up.

 

The Extreme is an outstanding piece of engineering. I have no doubts it is currently the best sounding music server on the market. 

I have been playing with a DIY server with very similar hardware and got some taste of what the Extreme could do. I will be posting in the Building a DIY Music Server thread how one can passively cool and power those two Xeon CPUs. It's an interesting route for more advanced DIY builders to explore.

 

But having peaked at some Extreme servers, I can definitely say that there is a lot more in the Extreme than the sum of its parts. It is obvious that a lot of listening tests have been done - hundreds or maybe even thousands of hours must have taken place to come up with the optimal custom Windows OS settings. This hardware is so resolving that every single setting matters!

 

@ray-dude Looking at your system and thinking about "Where To Go From Here?". I don't know how well the Dave drives your high sensitive speakers (probably pretty well), but as a SET monoblocks / high sensitive speakers fan, I have a feeling you can do better (at the expense of some purity). You mentioned Sean Jacobs for network equipment, but as far as I know Sean developed his DC4 power supply for the Chord Dave... and then extended the design for other applications. Given that you not only use the Dave as a DAC but as an amplifier as well, the effect of a DC4 in your system might be quite significant. 

Also, I really like the JCAT Signature LAN Cable GOLD network cable. I wonder how it compares to the Sablon in an "Extreme" environment. Maybe @Marcin_gps would agree to send a demo to some Extreme users. On the contrary, it's time for me to try the Sablon ethernet cable in my system as well, as I haven't. 

If I was an Extreme owner, I would not worry about USB cards and such. It's so well tweaked that it can easily be 'disbalanced' by installing any additional software, hardware, drivers, etc. And given its power supply design, it may not be a good idea to introduce another 'external' LPS. Just enjoy it the way it comes would be my advice. You can treat the environment surrounding the Extreme to get the best out of it.

 

 

 

[Account Closed]

Even if I personally would never go this route, I very much enjoyed reading this excellent review series. In large part because it was a personal and very human journey. A great review and an even better story.

 

Bravo!

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, basillus said:

Fantastic, the best review I've ever read.

The Poweradd Pro battery banks you use are with their original switchmode psues? Asking because if it was me I would probably prefer that your internet Alcatel box is always connected to power (without having to take off the power bank's smps, when listening), so here I would probably try using a linear psu to power the powerbank, if possible?

 

It turns out that the PP2 batteries run just fine when plugged in and charging.  Basically, the one in my bedroom closet is a 16V energizing supply for the dual regulated DXP supply outputting 12V.  For really critical listening, I can unplug the SMPS that is charging the PP2 and get maybe 7-8 hours on a charge (way more than a typical critical listening session)

 

When I was leveraging the PP2's for USB and dual BNC optimization, having them disconnected from mains/charging supply was very audible (presumably from mains isolation).  I'm in the process of moving to a dual EdgeRouter X SFP setup (audio network isolated on one ERX, rest of my home network on the other), so I have not yet done that experiment with the PP2 at my networking gear.

 

Still very much in flux (I'm experimenting with VLANs), but my eventual goal is to use a fiber link to galvanically isolate my home network/WiFi from the audio network...just not quite there yet.  When this settles out, I'll come back to tweak up the power to the ONT/audio ERXSFP.  Below is the current "live" snap shot of where I am.

 

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

It looks like your design decision has added ernormous value to the DAVE, due to the replacement of Pre amp and Power Amp, in collaboration with the hyper effiency of the 9.87's.

I would wonder if you could - when it comes to SQ - put a percentage on the component's impact to the performance (Speakers, DAC, Streamer, Cables, Network, Power supply)? From the visual on the Voxativ home page I didn't notice special room treatment, so I excluded the room from that equation. 

Finally, I'd like to ask if you see room for further improvement on the DAC / Amp side of your wonderful and impressive system or would  this move destroy your design principles?

 

Indeed, when I moved from my beloved B&W 802d3's (I literally had dreamed of 8XX series speakers for decades) to the 9.87's, I was able to cost justify it by the savings with the amp/preamp.  I was just giving up too much transparency with an amp and cross overs in the chain.

 

I am always interested in hearing new DACs.  As you may have surmised, I have hyper optimized my system around core reference anchors (first DAVE, then the Voxativs, now the Extreme) and tried to minimize everything else that could take away from those true references.  I've heard other DACs in show settings and in dealer rooms and they are spectacular, but I have yet to hear one that gives me the sense of being with real musicians like the Chord DACs (esp. DAVE).  I am open minded, esp. with something like Extreme in the chain, that there will be a synergy that is special with another DAC (similarly, with a traditional amp/speaker setup).  The cycle doesn't end, it just pauses, then you build on new strengths to see if there is more to be found in these recordings.

 

I have not (yet) moved into room treatments.  Part of this is practicalities (smaller home, shared space, etc), part of it is to avoid premature optimization.  I'm very fortunate to have a room geometry with a vaulted ceiling, and floor to ceiling book shelves, so a lot of the natural boom is already mitigated (that has removed urgency and allowed me to be patient).  With these core reference anchors in place, my next focus will be digital room correction, which will inform macro room changes or targeted treatments to supplement the DRC.  Looking forward to that project actually (it's been in the queue for a very long time).

[ackcheng]

Dear Ray,

 

thanks so much for this excellent review. I moved from SGMS to EVO and the to extreme and the improvement that I hear is not small. 
 

can I ask you what version of hqplayer are you using? Is it worth upgrading to 4 as I only have 3 in the context of extreme server? 

 

thanks

 

Arthur

[ray-dude]

Arthur, I have not heard HQP 3.x (I run 4.x)  I'm an unabashed snob for the sinc-M filter from my Chord indoctrination, so I'm limited to 4.x.  I know Emile has a fondness for 3.x, but I don't think he has spent too much time with 4.x.  

 

Perhaps you could test 3.x vs 4.x using the 30 minute trial mode that Jussi provides?  (my ear is trained for the sinc-M filter, so that A/B would be harder for me to do)

[spotforscott]

Awesome review Ray, thanks so much for sharing your journey with us. I assume that all of your impressions were with your 2 channel rig and not headphones? Just curious how well the Abyss TC's scaled up with the Extreme vs your 2 channel experience. Any thoughts on that?

[ray-dude]

99% 2 channel through DAVE.  Adding TT2 to my headphone setup is a very recent thing, so I can't give a definitive comparative answer vs the NUC side.  Part of this iteration of my system cycle was to leverage the Monoprice slim run to run a long USB length from the Extreme to the TT2 on the end table next to my sofa (vs playing from laptop to TT2 to headphones).

 

Taking a step back, I do wonder how much of the incredible dynamics I'm hearing is because I have ultra-minimal paths between DAC and transducer (whether speakers or headphones), and how much could I be hearing this stuff if I had a more traditional setup with amp and regular speakers, or headphone amp and headphones?  At some point, I'm sure the siren song of big speakers and even bigger amps will draw me back in.  For now, I'm intentionally in denial (at least until my younger one gets through college

 

[fas42]

I suspect you will lose a lot of the magic, unless you have gone through a great deal of optimising of the area between DAC and speakers, via amplifiers, already ... 😉.

 

Would be interesting to find out, of course. 🙂

[AudioDoctor]

I have truly enjoyed reading your review this week. This is a masterclass in what a review should be! I loved it!

 

Before reading this through the week, I was considering a fiber run from my switch to a sonic transporter i9 > Optical Rendu > USB in my DAC, Now I want an Extreme...  ha.

[ted_b]

Once again, as I've stated earlier in Extreme Week, this review (and week long multi-part review style) is a new benchmark.  I actually find it clever that you (and Chris) devised a very reasonable way for us attention-deficit audiophiles to read a 10+ page review easily. 

 

I am very much in agreement with those remarks above that highlight the unique aspects of your existing DAVE-to-Voxativ simplicity.  I have to assume that this highly efficient transfer of signal gave you hints of great dynamic range long before the Extreme showed up.  It does not surprise me that this dynamism is a major strength in the features of the Extreme.  You've uncluttered a very important room in the signal path journey and I wouldn't mess with it. 

 

 

[Axial]

Is there a section for measurements? 

 

Thx Ray-dude for listening, enjoying and sharing in words with us all. 

[BigAlMc]

Hi Ray,

 

Can only echo what even the esteemed audio contributors like Ted_B and Rajiv have said, a stunning bit of work and a great bit of writing. And I'm under no illusions that this took a lot of work. Not only your journey to get here which you so eloquently described. But the work to do the actual tinkering and listening evaluations. And obviously the work to craft such a great series of articles. Excellent stuff and we thank you for the contribution. Bravo!

 

I am however going to add something which risks being misread as negative. It's not intended that way, but it's a reflection on this crazy hobby of ours.

 

Buying a 26 grand server even for the fortunate few that could afford it is nuts. But I get it. I completely maxxed my own budget when I spent 7k on the Zenith SE a few years ago. Had anyone told me a couple years previously that i would spend that huge sum on a fecking server, I'd have laughed in their face.

 

But nonetheless I did and I did not regret it for a second. I'm seriously toying with adding the Innuos Phoenix to it as well (partly due to Rajiv's excellent review - damn you too Austinpop!! 😉).

 

[I should add that my signature is misleading as after a year and a half of NUC tinkering I have restored the Zenith SE to pride of place and might sell the NUCs at some point].

 

So, as I said, it's clearly nuts to spend that sort of money but I truly get it. The controversial bit. Spend 26k on a server and it still needs/benefits (take your pick) from all the additional tweaks/assists like EtherRegen, audiophile power cord, Sablon USB, audiophile stand etc. etc. That's kinda depressing!

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm a firm believer that everything matters. But this hobby of ours has clearly lost the freaking plot when a 26k server needs us to spend a few more grand to make it shine!!

 

Hope you don't take that the wrong way. Meantime I'll go back to salivating over a Phoenix and a Sablon 2020 (thanks for planting that seed by the way!) to make my SE shine ...... 🙄

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[tsaett]

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi Ray,

 

Can only echo what even the esteemed audio contributors like Ted_B and Rajiv have said, a stunning bit of work and a great bit of writing. And I'm under no illusions that this took a lot of work. Not only your journey to get here which you so eloquently described. But the work to do the actual tinkering and listening evaluations. And obviously the work to craft such a great series of articles. Excellent stuff and we thank you for the contribution. Bravo!

 

I am however going to add something which risks being misread as negative. It's not intended that way, but it's a reflection on this crazy hobby of ours.

 

Buying a 26 grand server even for the fortunate few that could afford it is nuts. But I get it. I completely maxxed my own budget when I spent 7k on the Zenith SE a few years ago. Had anyone told me a couple years previously that i would spend that huge sum on a fecking server, I'd have laughed in their face.

 

But nonetheless I did and I did not regret it for a second. I'm seriously toying with adding the Innuos Phoenix to it as well (partly due to Rajiv's excellent review - damn you too Austinpop!! 😉).

 

[I should add that my signature is misleading as after a year and a half of NUC tinkering I have restored the Zenith SE to pride of place and might sell the NUCs at some point].

 

So, as I said, it's clearly nuts to spend that sort of money but I truly get it. The controversial bit. Spend 26k on a server and it still needs/benefits (take your pick) from all the additional tweaks/assists like EtherRegen, audiophile power cord, Sablon USB, audiophile stand etc. etc. That's kinda depressing!

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm a firm believer that everything matters. But this hobby of ours has clearly lost the freaking plot when a 26k server needs us to spend a few more grand to make it shine!!

 

Hope you don't take that the wrong way. Meantime I'll go back to salivating over a Phoenix and a Sablon 2020 (thanks for planting that seed by the way!) to make my SE shine ...... 🙄

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Alan, 

imho that reasoning is a fallacy, in my experience the reverse is actually true: The better the components get (meaning lower noisefloor, higher dynamic range,...), the more all other shortcomings (or improvements) in the system will shine through. 

I wouldn't expect a $1m formula1 race car to be immune to choice of tires 🙂 

I don't argue with it being nuts though :) 

 

Greetings

Christoph 

[bbosler]

43 minutes ago, tsaett said:

 

I wouldn't expect a $1m formula1 race car to be immune to choice of tires

 

Not at all, but to Alan's point.. if I paid that for a car I would expect it to come with the ideal tires. The only variable for tires would be the road conditions, but that analogy fails as the conditions in his living room are not changing.

 

If a $26K server is so profoundly affected by the choice of cables or Ethernet switches or whatever then there is a problem with the server. If it is so profoundly affected by an ethernet switch then it doesn't work properly.

 

All the attributes that I heard before with the EtherREGEN are back - increased speed and control (especially for bass), more subtlety and detail, awesome openness and sense of space

 

That should have been dealt with in the design and implementation. If my $1K NUC or Mac Mini is better with a  $640 EtherRegen then I accept that, it makes sense to me. If I paid $26K and it was I would be pissed.

 

That said, I have no problem with anybody spending whatever they want playing around with this stuff. I get it. I see it as somebody who has the means entertaining themselves with their disposable income.