New D/D Converters from Denafrips

[Blake]

There have been some reports circulating over the last several months that Denafrips was developing a range of D/D converters.  Two of those models released this week, with a third model to follow shortly.  

 

The entry level model is the Iris.  The middle child, premium version, has not yet been released.  The flagship version is the Gaia.

 

Iris:

 

https://www.denafrips.com/iris

 

Gaia:

 

https://www.denafrips.com/gaia

 

6Moons is currently working on a review of the Iris and Gaia. The review is still in the "Preview" stage:

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips5/

 

I have been in communication with the worldwide distributor for Denafrips, Alvin Chee of Vinshine Audio, about the new D/D range.  Alvin is using the Gaia with his Denafrips Terminator and he reports a big improvement with the Gaia in the chain.      

 

I am currently running usb in to my Denafrips Terminator, but I would like to use the i2s input so I decided to go ahead and roll the dice and put in my order for the Gaia.  Will report back when it arrives.

 

 

[Blake]

26 minutes ago, Ben-M said:

Any updates on the Western Front? 

 

I've got my eye on a Gaia for the DSD512 i2s output too, but I'm really wondering where to get a clock that covers these frequencies as well as the more common 10MHz one, and like 8 outputs...

 

I ordered it on May 10th.  Alvin thought it would ship by the end of May, but they had a small delay caused by the chassis supplier.  He thinks my Gaia will ship out in about 10 days.

 

In the meantime since we have no Denafrips in house so far and following on the comments about the Berkeley Alpha, I will say I loved mine and within the limitations it is likely still one of the best you can buy regardless of price (for example, Berkeley still sell this Alpha, no need to update it).  AES/EBU out was the best solution in my use.  I would still have mine but for my change in DAC where I want to use my DAC's i2s input (via my Sablon 2020 rj45 ethernet cable).

 

To bide our time until we see some Denafrips action, for those interested in the Berkeley, here is a link to Elberoth's classic USB converter shootout which most here may already be familiar with, but just in case you are not, here it is.  My tiny (pathetic) contribution was a small 4 unit shootout at post #198:

 

 

 

[Blake]

13 hours ago, barrows said:

There are actually plenty of DACs which will not benefit from a converter like this, unless one prefers the sound of higher jitter.  Just use a good USB source direct into the DAC's USB input, and just do not purchase a DAC which does not have a well implemented USB input, there really is no excuse these days for a DAC to have a poor USB input, the details of getting it "right" are now pretty well understood by most sharp digital engineers.

Now, if one has a "legacy" DAC which they love, the might benefit form  converter like this.

 

Barrows, I must say you really confuse me at times.  You have a lot of knowledge (for example, I am enjoying your Roon settings), but then I read something like this and just scratch my head.

 

You may not realize it, but to me, your post comes across so condescending, like you have everything figured out.  Anyone experiencing an uptick in sound quality must be deluding themselves and those silly people must just like the sound of jitter? Berkeley must be incompetent engineers.  

 

Since you are in the industry, where do I buy your perfect usb DAC?   Also, I assume Sonore's UltraDigital converter gets a free pass, right?  

[Blake]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

@Blake, Far from everything is figured out by anyone, and certainly not me.  But just because everything is not figured out, does not mean we should dismiss the things which are figured out.  
Please do not put words in my mouth though... it appears to me that you are reading an awful lot between the lines of what I have said: "Berkeley must be incompetent engineers", umm, not sure how/where you could infer this from my words, for example?

 

On the "Perfect USB DAC" question, I never said anything about any "Perfect DAC" of any type?  BTW, for the sake of discussion, does it really make sense that a really good USB interface could made in a separate chassis, but such could not be achieved inside the DAC itself?

 

On the uDigital, it gets a "free pass" to where exactly?  I do not actually have anything to do with the uDigital product, but the way I look at it, Sonore offers this product because our Rendu Series Renderers have only USB output, and some customers have SPDIF only input DACs, or they might just want to use SPDIF, or I2S for that matter, I do not see anything wrong with offering options for customers?

 

And, please keep in mind that my post was direct response to a question from 57Gold which i feel was a very legitimate question.  No one is under any obligation to agree with me if they choose not to.

 

@Summit, simply, no, sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

You are saying USB has been figured out.  It hasn't.  Anyone that has been paying attention could tell you that.  Yes, we can get sound from point A to point B, and yes, it can sound pretty damn good. Is it perfect?  No.  If that were the case then there would be one globally accepted solution.  Schiit's new solution would not be necessary, because in your world, you believe USB has been perfected.  Which dismisses any concept of good, better or excellent gradations of USB input performance.  Yes, I am wording things differently than what you wrote, but that is 100% your implication.  

 

Do I really need to connect the dots for you regarding Berkeley?  Earlier in this thread, we mentioned the Berkeley Alpha USB converter.  Berkeley believes using the Alpha USB D/D converter is a better sonic solution that just going USB direct to a Berkeley DAC.  You say a competent designer doesn't need the extra D/D conversion stage because any competent engineer should have figured that out.  Hence, Berkeley are not competent when it comes to USB.  That is why I called you out on what DAC you have produced, that I can buy and compare.  

 

You are making absolutist statements that most DAC performance would be hurt by a product you've never heard.  I think that is a bad idea personally as I prefer to keep an open mind.  What about Dark Matter?  Should people have dogmatic, pre-conceived notions about that product, or should they try it with an open mind? 

 

And don't put words in my mouth.  I didn't object to Sonore offering the ultraDigital (I am a proponent of D/D converters based on my own experiments so I applaud such a product), but given your comments about these sorts of products introducing jitter, well, then that means the ultraDigital also will introduce jitter and harm the performance of "most DAC's" because, well, most DAC's have solved USB, right?

 

[Blake]

@barrows, you are free to continue posting here as you like. 

 

I know you say you were just responding to a question, but really, it sure seemed like you were here to answer that question while also taking a shot at Denafrips and possibly Berkeley (I will give you the benefit of the doubt on Berkeley), as well as taking a shot at folks like me, who have experienced performance increases with many different D/D converters (your 'jitter' comment).  You did a similar thing in the preamp thread.

 

I don't mind at all when an industry person promotes their own ideas in any thread.  What does get under my skin though is when that industry person takes pot shots at other manufacturers, or direct or clearly implied digs at consumers.  It is just a really bad look.  Like it or not, you, as an industry rep have to be held to a slightly higher standard IMHO.

 

In some respects, you have an advantage here over most that participate on this forum due to your audio career.  However, our ears are the great equalizer.  If I consistently hear improvements with (most) quality D/D converters, which is backed up by tons of reports online from other users of various brands of D/D converters, well, then I'd say that despite your technical expertise, your blanket statements on the D/D topic should be called into question and at the very least= your opinion is not audio fact.  I have zero problems with differing opinions, I do have a problem with opinion stated as fact, particularly if that person works in the industry.

 

 

[Blake]

[Blake]

Arnold's personal live-in chef just arrived, ready to serve him some tasty tunes! 

 

This thing is built like a tank and rather heavy for its size.  Great packaging and build quality.  

 

 

[Blake]

46 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi Blake,

 

Congras !

 

So Gaia arrived or Terminator also arrived ?

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

Thanks Richard!

 

Gaia arrived yesterday, Terminator Plus will arrive in around 3 weeks.

 

 

[Blake]

On 7/22/2020 at 10:34 AM, Summit said:

 

I wonder if you prefer SQ with or without ultraRendu now that you have acquired a Gaia?

 

I stream from Tidal and Qobuz and my Melco server also connects to the UltraRendu via an EtherRegen so in all my use cases the UltraRendu is in the chain.

[Blake]

13 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Okay I'm a little slow does it mean that the ultraRendu enhance the sound of your audio system both with the Gaia and without the Gaia?

 

Hi @Summit no worries mate.  The way I have things setup I am unable to listen to music without the Ultrarendu in the chain so unfortunately I can't provide any input on that question.

 

[Blake]

My personal, entirely subjective impressions using the Gaia with the Chord Qutest:

 

The Gaia transforms the Qutest.  I had to keep checking myself since the Gaia arrived to make sure I was hearing the magnitude of change I believed I was hearing.  Yep, it is real.  I could see the Qutest+Gaia combo as an "end game" combo for the vast majority of audiophiles.  

 

If I had been listening to the Qutest just by itself for a long time, and then I was blind-folded and someone connected the Gaia to the Qutest, but told me they had inserted a Dave*, I would believe them and immediately start figuring out how long it would take me to save up for the Dave because hearing the improvements, it would be difficult to go without.  Again, though, that is just me.

 

*I have not heard the Dave in my system and thus I am not saying a Qutest+Gaia would equal a Dave.  I am just trying to express the magnitude of the change.  After my years of buying and trying different DAC's in my system, I view the Gaia improvements to comfortably exceed one, and possibly equal even two DAC model jumps within a manufacturer's DAC line. 

 

Another data point:  I loved my Berkelely Alpha USB D/D converter and it improved every DAC to which it was connected (most recently a Yggy Analog 2).  The sonic improvements brought by Gaia exceed the sonic improvements from the Berkeley by a rather large margin.

 

I'd love to put a Gaia up against a PhoenixUSB or Chord M Scaler just to see how it compares (yes, I appreciate these are differing devices and it would be a somewhat flawed comparison due to the different connection types).  If you simply view all of these devices as "sonic improvement" devices at differing price points, which at the end of the day is what they are (thinking of the Gaia as merely a tool to convert to a different digital type is really missing the big point of the Gaia), the Gaia might prove to be a cheaper alternative for a given amount of sonic improvement.

 

What are the primary sonic improvements?  Dramatic (on an audiophile rating scale- i.e. not to my wife's rating scale) improvements to holography/sound staging and transparency (hearing even more musical information, details, the impression of the recording venue, etc).  The sound stage is huge and there is so much air between the performers.  I really value those aspects.  If those sonic attributes are not what floats your boat, then move along, nothing to see here.

 

Finally, as a Terminator Plus owner, the ability to take advantage of the TPlus' clock output to the upstream Gaia, is more icing on the Gaia cake.

 

 

[Blake]

On 7/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, ted_b said:

Blake, great thread, thanks.

 

So for those of you who have used the Gaia (esp with non-Denafrips dacs) are you saying that sending it's I2S output to, say, the Holo dacs is not worth it due to the misuse of clocking with I2S?  I'm more than a little confused...thx.

 

Hi Ted, I am not sure I am following your question here.  Perhaps I missed a comment in this thread or somewhere else.  Could you provide some further detail?

 

[Blake]

Hi Richard,

 

Sorry, I should have responded earlier but my work schedule has been off the charts.  I will indeed do a comparison that bypasses the Gaia-  so....  UltraRendu > usb > TPlus.  Unfortunately I don't have any other source to try AES/EBU, or other input options.  

 

I am intentionally holding off on comments to the TPlus and associated comparisons (TPlus alone, TPlus with Gaia but no clock sync, TPlus with Gaia with clock sync, and TPlus+Gaia I2S via LVDS vs LVCMOS) until the TPlus is fully burned in, along with the attached cables. 

 

It will be at least two or three more weeks before I will be comfortable that things have settled in.  And then I have to find the time to do all the A/B stuff.  When I am done I will be posting my thoughts in your TPlus thread.

[Blake]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Hi Blake

It’s a bit confusing this double up DDC chain. 
However I was thinking there may be some analogies to Ethernet switches. As dual etherRegen is said to be better than one. 

 

To bad neither the Berkeley Alpha or SU-1 has other digital in like an AES/EBU. Or the Gaia USB out. Then one could test the hypothesis. 

(I don’t expect much improvement adding your Berkeley upfront the Gaia).

Maybe dual Iris will outperform one Gaia 😀

 

On the other hand, if this Gaia is this good, one should expect an improvement in front of almost any DAC.
 

Did you discuss with Alvin the differences between Iris vs Gaia if one only was after “normal’ USB to SPDIF converter (or AES/EBU). To me specs seems equal. So maybe an Iris will do ?
 

Do you know anything about Hermes ?

 

I must say it’s attempting to replace my SU-1. I still hope one day I can trow all usb out, and only use Ethernet as digital interface, or a DDC that has Ethernet in and AES/EBU out, so I still can use my old DAC. 

 

Hi @R1200CL

 

Your "double etherRegen" analogy might be accurate. Srajan on 6Moons was posting similar "doubling up" comments in some recent D/D converter reviews and previews. And @austinpop's outstanding eR review showed that doubling up yields additional sonic benefits.

 

@Abyss Man might be able to chime in on your Iris question, as he has had both the Gaia and Iris in his system, and I think he might have also owned a modified SU-1. 

 

I don't know of any Hermes details as I don't believe any prototypes or production units are out to the public.  However, I am almost positive I spotted one in Alvin's system 😁

 

Based upon my experience with the Chord Qutest, my response is definitely yes, Gaia will improve non-Denafrips models as well.  The Gaia took the excellent tone/timbre qualities of the Qutest and injected steroid levels of 3D holography, clarity and detail.  If I would have had a Qutest (with LPS)+Gaia combo 6 months ago, I would have ended my DAC explorations and lived very happily with that combo for the foreseeable future.

 

That is obviously an incredibly small sample size though.

[Blake]

@sig8

 

My first thought is, it could be a pin-out issue.  I think I2S for the Holo Spring is HDMI, and not RJ45, but I could be wrong.  Does the Spring have user configurable pin-outs?

 

Pin-out info for the Gaia is in the owner's manual:

 

 https://3beb070f-8ca8-434d-b6b3-76002990adfa.filesusr.com/ugd/4b933e_5bbf9137820542c6bc30d47b697ef750.pdf

 

Did you trying using any other connection type between the Gaia and your Spring DAC?  That might help to isolate the potential issue.

 

 

[Blake]

@bernardl

 

You may want to check out the Denafrips Terminator Plus review on 6Moons as he does experiment with Gaia, and a different D/D converter (but not MC-3+) and he also mentions the Mutec REF10.

 

[Blake]

Congrats!  I see you have the clock out synced up as well.  Once things have settled in, let us know your thoughts.

 

 

[Blake]

I was hoping Srajan at 6Moons would compare the Phoenix, Gaia and some other D/D converters.

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips6/4/

 

 

While the review is not yet finished, in his review of the Denafrips Avatar, Srajan notes that he did compare the Phoenix, Gaia and through extrapolation to another review, the Mutec MC-3+ USB.  While the comparison was not perfect in that he compared Phoenix going to the Terminator Plus usb input, whereas the Gaia was going in to the Terminator Plus I2S input (there was no way around this since Gaia doesn't have USB output, and the Phoenix only has USB output), the ranking of best sonic performance was:

 

1. Terminator Plus + Gaia with the Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged upstream to the Gaia.

2. Terminator Plus + Phoenix

3. Terminator Plus + Gaia without Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged. 

4. Mutec MC-3+ USB 

 

 

[Blake]

Enjoyed reading your report @Koso.  Glad to hear the Gaia is working out so well!  

[Blake]

First, welcome to AS @Jazzman7

 

You have a very nice system.  I do have both the Iris and Gaia and used both with the Qutest.  The problem is, when I used Gaia + Qutest, that was in my speaker system.  Iris + Qutest has been in my headphone system which is in another room and as a result I haven't done any meaningful direct A/B testing with both in the speaker or headphone systems.  I will say, in each case, I found that the performance of the Qutest was improved as compared to USB direct and for me it was obvious and worth the money.  Your mileage may vary.  In both audio systems I go USB in to the Denafrips DDC's.

 

I intend to do some A/B comparisons in the near future.  The problem is, I've made a number of recent system changes and I am currently burning in a new DAC and usb cable that just arrived.  I would want to let the new stuff settle in and establish a base line before posting any A/B impressions.  I probably won't get around to doing any comparisons on the Iris-Gaia for the next week or possibly two.  Feel free to pm me if you want my input and don't see any updates here within that time frame. 

 

To complicate matters for you, Hermes is now in pre-order status, so you now have 3 options.  

 

 

[Blake]

2 hours ago, Jazzman7 said:

Prior to acquiring the Nucleus a Node 2i was my principal source, and an AQ Vodka Toslink was my preferred input.  

 

For some additional detail, in my headphone system I have also been running the AQ Vodka Toslink from Iris to Qutest (Sablon 2020 USB to the Iris... yeah, the USB cable cost more than the Iris 😄).

 

In my speaker setup I was using Kimber D60 spdif from Gaia to Qutest (again with Sablon 2020 USB in to the Gaia). Qutest was then moved to my headphone system.

 

 

[Blake]

 

 

 

I found some time to do some A/B comparisons with the Gaia and Iris in my headphone system.  First off, for Qutest, I use Toslink per Rob Watts' recommendation in posts in another forum.   For my other DAC's (both Denafrips), I find I2S via HDMI to be my clear favorite in terms of the possible inputs.  I am running USB to the DDC's inputs.

 

As you can see in the first picture, the Gaia is a significantly larger and heavier unit as compared to Iris, something to consider if space is limited.

 

In terms of sonics, I find that both of the Denafrips DDC's provide an improvement in clarity, resolution, transparency and 3D holography for soundstage aspects.  I don't find they change tonality and there are no sonic trade-offs when the DDC's are inserted in the system.  In all cases, I found that inserting the DDC's in the chain is superior to USB direct (an admittedly small sample size of 3 DAC's).  But as I mentioned earlier in this thread, using my Berkeley Alpha USB and other quality DDC with other DAC's that have passed through my system over the years (Yggy A2, BiFrost, LH Labs, Bel Canto, Wadia, Blue Circle, etc. mostly going with AES-EBU input), I always preferred DDC's in the chain to USB direct.  YMMV.

 

Comparing Iris to Gaia, the Gaia simply enhances the aforementioned sonic aspects to a greater degree.   There is a significant price increase from Iris to Gaia.  Whether that extra money is worth it for the performance delta will be personal to each user.   I don't feel a pressing need to sell my Iris and upgrade to Hermes or Gaia, but Gaia is better.  Iris is killer for the money and I am very happy with the performance.

[Blake]

Hey Matt, interesting question.  I just re-installed the Gaia in the speaker system and unfortunately the way things are physically configured in that system it takes some work to pull some heavy things in and out and swap (getting access to the back of my power regenerator).

 

Next time I am moving stuff around I will give it a try.

 

 

[Blake]

Based on your options listed above, if it was me, I'd go Venus 2, combined with Iris or Hermes, so I could run I2S. 

I have owned the original Terminator, but never heard the Pontus.

 

   

[Blake]

48 minutes ago, jomsjoms said:

Thanks sir. So for scenario1, you would go for Venus2+iris. How about for Scenario 2? 

 

I no longer have the original Terminator to directly compare to my Venus 2, and it has been 5 months since I had the Terminator so it is hard for me to give an answer, unfortunately.  I am super happy with the Venus 2 + Iris though. 

 

If I had to venture a guess using my old, stale memory from 5 months ago. I would probably go with the Venus 2 + Hermes/Gaia option, but take that for what it is worth.