Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[soupcon]

18 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

I'm bewildered. If Roon is inherently as sonically bad as it's suggested, how can better hardware make it better?  What supposed secret sauce in hardware would fix it?  What higher-end players are focused on is solving hardware-related issues with digital processing.  It's like thinking you can fix a poorly shot photo in the darkroom.  Certainly you can manipulate it all you want.  But you can't retrieve what's not in the negative.

I wouldn't call the MU1 "hardware." It's a lot of software. I wouldn't say that Roon is inherently sonically bad. It is chronically bad. I don't know if we know for sure if Grimm was trying to solve the Roon problem, but it's reasonable to think they might have been able to interrupt, circumvent or otherwise improve the deleterious things (which Roon themselves won't even acknowledge exist relative to sonic quality) in the Roon environment.

 

I've been comparing Roon to in-built players like MPD for several generations of end points, and Roon always sounds like Roon. Does it have to? I'm not sure, but I think Roon themselves won't be of any help. 

[stevebythebay]

5 minutes ago, pvanosta said:

I take these statements about the 'obvious sonic disadvantages of Roon' with a grain of salt. Either my ears are not sophisticated enough to be perturbed by this supposedly inferior sound quality, OR there is something else going on. I'm somewhat reminded of the conversations between wine connoisseurs when discussing a 200$ bottle versus a 2000$ bottle and waxing lyrical about the details. A lot of it is subjective and by definition unscientific and personal.

I have been streaming for 10 years across a wide variety of hardware (streamers, DACS, streamer/DACs, ...) from Cambridge and Oppo via Auralic, Hegel and Devialet Expert pro. I am also an early adopter of Roon, with a lifetime subscription when it was still only 500$. This was after years of trying to get JRiver to do what I wanted it to. I was a textbook case of audiophilia nervosa, reading all the magazines in 3 languages and always on the lookout for the next big thing or the newest tweak. Then I discovered Grimm. I moved to an end-to-end Grimm-only system and I have not looked back since. Now I focus on listening to music and I hear nothing wrong with Roon. So like I said: either my ears are just not good enough, or Eelco's statement is correct, that Roon is bit-transparent and the MU1 is as well-isolated against interference as it can be made to be within the confines of consumer engineering. To those of you who hate Roon so much: why did you buy a device that can only play Roon, when there are so many other high-end options (Aurender, Lumin, Merging, etc....) to choose from? 

Agree.  The fact that the MU1 seems quite "immune" to varied attempts to improve it via various cabled alternatives (of the same type) suggests that the design and implementation have been done to uncover such issues and vanquish them.  Eelco and company long ago uncovered the problems others have discovered and worked to minimize their impact on sound quality and system performance.  The only bit about Roon that seems unique is their RAAT transport layer.  If it has any negative impact on SQ I've not found anyone claiming so.  It might present issues for the hardware and firmware, but those should be dealt with and not involve timing or jitter or any other transfer issues.

[stevebythebay]

15 minutes ago, soupcon said:

I wouldn't call the MU1 "hardware." It's a lot of software. I wouldn't say that Roon is inherently sonically bad. It is chronically bad. I don't know if we know for sure if Grimm was trying to solve the Roon problem, but it's reasonable to think they might have been able to interrupt, circumvent or otherwise improve the deleterious things (which Roon themselves won't even acknowledge exist relative to sonic quality) in the Roon environment.

 

I've been comparing Roon to in-built players like MPD for several generations of end points, and Roon always sounds like Roon. Does it have to? I'm not sure, but I think Roon themselves won't be of any help. 

I don't have a clue as to what the FPGA is doing, especially if, like me, you're not using any upsampling, surround, or other unique features.  Having disabled all of the Roon DSP features, I'm not finding any obvious issues with Roon.  You nor anyone else I've spoken with have never shown me specific evidence of what Roon is doing, or specifically what is being detected from player software variants - all other things being equal.  It's all hearsay. 

[PYP]

Roon seems to be trying to be everything to everyone.  The rollouts of various "improvements" have been rocky and some folks have had serious database issues.  

 

I tend to ignore all of that (haven't had a database issue or might have a different opinion) and find very good sound quality (which I think of in terms of ease in engaging with music) and features that I do like and use often.  Qobuz within the Roon environment provides unlimited music.  Together, they are a formidable music discovery engine.  

 

Obviously, there is other software out there and competition is good to get continuous improvement.  If you bought the MU1 with the understanding that there would be other software available eventually, then you may be impatient but Grimm will deliver as promised.  

 

But I hope this thread doesn't get bogged down with Roon discussions.  There are many other places to follow that discussion, especially on the Roon user forum where many seem dyspeptic.  Isn't this hobby supposed to be fun?

 

It isn't easy to get streaming right.  The MU1 makes the journey shorter and easier.  

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

I'm bewildered. If Roon is inherently as sonically bad as it's suggested, how can better hardware make it better?  What supposed secret sauce in hardware would fix it?  

Roon can cause quite a bit of network traffic.  Taiko’s new networking components seem to have users much more delighted with the sound of Roon, as I think network activity with these components generates much less noise.  It’s important to point out that the total cost for their networking components in total may be more than the cost of the MU1.  Heckr of a lot of money to throw at the problem.
 

On Antipodes, I have a choice of a few different software options.  I use Roon only when in music discovery mode, as it clearly has the best interface for that.  When I want the best sound quality, I switch over to Squeeze.  The improvement is significant to my ears, but not everyone hears it that way.  I’m very sensitive to the time domain and have optimized my system and room around that. I’ve also been focusing more recently on transparency and clarity.  This is where Squeeze really shines.  Roon can sound smeared relative to this and even sometimes have a grating edge, but Roon has gotten a lot better in this regard.

 

To try to put the differences in context, I will mention that I recently got to compare at K50 gen 2 ($17,500) my K30 gen 1 ($10,000).  With Squeeze running on both of them, it’s no contest, the K50 is an another league entirely.  The K50 brings you closer to hearing a live performance in your room, leaving the K30 to sound more like you are hearing a recording.  But change the software options on the K50 to any other option including Roon while leaving the K30 on Squeeze and I would take the K30. The smearing is just too much so all the other benefits of the K50 matter less to me.  And I repeat, to me.  Different ears and different systems can result in different choices.
 

Squeeze is barebones as far as functionality and I think that’s a huge reason for its sonic advantage.   But many find that the Squeeze interface gives up too much.  Not me, I actually love the Squeeze skin that Antipodes provides, but not for music discovery.  That’s when I turn to Roon.

 

I should point out that prior to owning the K30, I owned an Innuos Zenith Mk3.  I favored Squeeze on that server too, but I found Roon sounded much worse on that device.  The move to the K30 brought a significant improvement to Roon as it should given the price difference.  But, Squeeze was still better on the K30.  I do think gains can be had by running Roon Core on a separate server as it keeps itself very busy so getting that active off the device that connects directly to the DAC is a good thing.  Both the K30 and K50 are actually two computers in one chassis.  

 

I’ll be fascinated to hear how things turn out if the MU1 gains other software options.

[kennyb123]

(Deleted duplicate post)

[krass]

16 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

I have finally discovered that MU1 users buy them for the convenience of ROON instead of pursuing perfect sound. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1. I have said it clearly enough. In addition, I bought my MU1 from a dealer. Roon I also bought it for a year

 

what nonsense you write…..

 

I (& I suspect every other Mu1 owner) certainly did NOT buy the Mu1 because of Roon. I bought it because it sounded great. The fact I had to get a Roon License to use it was initially an inconvenience I put up with because the unit was great sounding. Slowly I have got to appreciate some aspects of Roon.

But I have ALWAYS and ONLY used the unit with Roon.

 

You state that “.. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1…”.

Really ?

How do you know ??

Have you listened to an MU1 with a different player software ???

Do you have an MU1 running something different that allows you to make such a statement ????

 

No?? Thought not……..

You’re just trolling with nonsense.

 

 

 

 

[kennyb123]

29 minutes ago, krass said:

You state that “.. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1…”.

Really ?

How do you know ??

Have you listened to an MU1 with a different player software ???

Do you have an MU1 running something different that allows you to make such a statement ????

He most certainly used language that was too strong.  My question has always been around how MU1 users would feel about Roon if other options were offered.  I think if one considers all the competitors, Roon is rarely the favorite as far as providing the best sound quality.  Especially so at the price of the MU1 and below.

 

I mentioned above the Innuos Zenith Mk3.  I found that even having Roon running when using Squeeze slightly degraded sound quality.  I would terminate it after switching to Squeeze.  I need not do that on Antipodes as separating the end point from the Core seems to have lessened the harm from just having Core running.  I would love to better understand how the MU1 is able to reduce the harm Roon does on other platforms.  Obviously they must have figured something out, else there wouldn’t be such delight amongst MU1 owners.

[stevebythebay]

22 minutes ago, krass said:

 

what nonsense you write…..

 

I (& I suspect every other Mu1 owner) certainly did NOT buy the Mu1 because of Roon. I bought it because it sounded great. The fact I had to get a Roon License to use it was initially an inconvenience I put up with because the unit was great sounding. Slowly I have got to appreciate some aspects of Roon.

But I have ALWAYS and ONLY used the unit with Roon.

 

You state that “.. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1…”.

Really ?

How do you know ??

Have you listened to an MU1 with a different player software ???

Do you have an MU1 running something different that allows you to make such a statement ????

 

No?? Thought not……..

You’re just trolling with nonsense.

 

 

 

 

You certainly pull no punches!  I have a suspicion that even when UPnP/DLNA support arrives on the MUx servers the optional software may not prove sonically noticeably better.  But I'm one who mostly plays albums from my local library and then queues up hours of music and kills my Roon app thereafter.  That should prevent Roon from chatting at all, though I don't know what it's up to.  Only network activity is receiving the bitstream from the Synology NAS.  I'll take Kenny's word that what Taiko claims about Roon is true, though it seems odd.

[PYP]

7 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 I would love to better understand how the MU1 is able to reduce the harm Roon does on other platforms.  Obviously they must have figured something out, else there wouldn’t be such delight amongst MU1 owners.

Me too.  And without requiring changes in custom-built upstream components (unlike Taiko if I understand correctly).    This point in time for streaming reminds me of a similar time in the development of DACs when they became much, much more musical.  Suddenly, it seemed, a lot of innovation and cracking the code.  MU1, being a platform, has already been updated and it seems reasonable that occasional updates will be available.  

[stevebythebay]

8 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

He most certainly used language that was too strong.  My question has always been around how MU1 users would feel about Roon if other options were offered.  I think if one considers all the competitors, Roon is rarely the favorite as far as providing the best sound quality.  Especially so at the price of the MU1 and below.

 

I mentioned above the Innuos Zenith Mk3.  I found that even having Roon running when using Squeeze slightly degraded sound quality.  I would terminate it after switching to Squeeze.  I need not do that on Antipodes as separating the end point from the Core seems to have lessened the harm from just having Core running.  I would love to better understand how the MU1 is able to reduce the harm Roon does on other platforms.  Obviously they must have figured something out, else there wouldn’t be such delight amongst MU1 owners.

As I've been led to believe the Roon and Grimm team work "together" to allow a degree of optimization.  As Roon did for their own Nucleus product, working with Intel on specific device driver optimizations, I gather Roon has worked with Taiko and Antipodes to some degree.  All of this is far better than years ago where Windows and macOS users were left to their own devices to mitigate OS processes and features in order to get the best performance from Roon or other software players running on their respective hardware platforms. 

[kennyb123]

Just now, stevebythebay said:

I'll take Kenny's word that what Taiko claims about Roon is true, though it seems odd.

That was my speculation, by the way.  The reports of Roon being favored over their own XDMS increased after their network products started shipping.  I believe even Emile stated that Roon sounded better if one was using both their router and switch.  That will be short lived as an upcoming XDMS upgrade will put it back on top.  Crazy hobby we have.

 

1 minute ago, stevebythebay said:

I have a suspicion that even when UPnP/DLNA support arrives on the MUx servers the optional software may not prove sonically noticeably better.  

Sorry to say it might not be.  There are a number of ways to arrive at that, but I tried really hard to make MPD/MinimServer/JPlay work for me on the K50 as JPlay on iPad and iPhone looks really nice.  I ended up not wanting to spend time in my listening room.  The sound was smeared relative to Squeeze and the usability was frustrating- especially when adding music.  I would easily choose Roon over that particular flavor of UPnP/DLNA.  YMMV.

[kennyb123]

22 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

As I've been led to believe the Roon and Grimm team work "together" to allow a degree of optimization.  

 Very likely that was the case.  It was also the case with Wadax.  I believe both provide a Roon extension.  That could be where the magic happens.

 

I do think that given your preference for Spectral gear and Shunyata cables, were you to hear a K50, you would easily prefer Squeeze.  Other listeners, like those who prefer a more smoothed out and more lush sound might prefer Roon.  Christiaan Punter is a good example of the kind of listener that favors the Roon flavoring.  He prefers Roon on Antipodes and favors the MU1 over some of the Antipodes servers.  It’s wonderful that we have so many options.  This pursuit has to be about what’s best for us and our tastes.

[stevebythebay]

I've yet to begin a trial of JPLAY, as I'm waiting on Grimm support for the MU1.  Then I'll not only test with the MU1, but via Minimserver on the Synology NAS, while using my dCS Vivaldi Upsampler as the gateway into the library.  Turns out I can already use the dCS Mosaic iPad app to do this today, though the interface is poor for this purpose.

[stevebythebay]

And now you can understand why we are such a small and insanely dedicated bunch of audio enthusiasts.  Had the auto industry evolved from hundreds of companies offering up their own, quite separate components, for customers to put together, you and I might be still hitching up old Nellie for our ride to market.

[kennyb123]

50 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

I've yet to begin a trial of JPLAY, as I'm waiting on Grimm support for the MU1.  

JPlay looks nice.  What I didn’t like was how well usage translated over to other devices.  I often shuffle between iPhone, iPad, Mac and PC.  With Squeeze and Roon, I can’t even tell that I’ve changed devices as far as the library contents and playback queue.  With JPlay, the iOS devices weren’t on the same page.  Maybe it was a setting I missed, but I would have to individually rescan each against Minimserver after first initiating a scan of MinimServer itself.  The playback queue wasn’t synchronized across devices either.  It seems JPlay would benefit from an option to sync across iCloud. Maybe it has such a feature, I gave up on it before I found anything.  (I still intend to use JPlay with my Chord Poly when using my Mojo 2 at work.)

 

Also I was left not having a good solution for either Mac or Windows when using MPD/MinimServer.

 

Back in the day when Roon arrived, my server was the original Auralic Aries.  Their Lightning app was a GUI for UPnP/DNLA so I used MinimServer as the back end.  Roon was like a

godsend at the time as it smartly solved many of the frustrating aspects of using that Lightning app.  Fast forward to the present and it astonishes me by how little things have advanced in the UPnP/DNLA space since then.  I could be wrong but MinimServer appears to not have gained an auto-rescan capability. Like I said, I could be wrong about this as it may not be the latest that’s installed on Antipodes.  But if I’m right it seems an odd omission in this day an age.  Squeeze even has this.

[stevebythebay]

Will certainly be interesting just what clients will work, and work well, with Grimm MUx servers once UPnP support arrives.  And it begs the question whether or not any of the companies offering such apps are actually working with server companies like Grimm.  Considering the yearly cost for JPLAY it certainly would make sense if they did so.  However, they're principally a hardware company, so JPLAY may be offered to Apple users at a more exorbitant price, versus Windows, since Apple users are more affluent.

 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, stevebythebay said:

However, they're principally a hardware company, so JPLAY may be offered to Apple users at a more exorbitant price, versus Windows, since Apple users are more affluent.

They offer a lifetime Windows license for, I think, three times the annual cost of the iOS version.  Not sure they are apples-to-apples in terms of functionality.

 

Some of what they do should provide a sound quality benefit.  There’s a setting that determines how often it refreshes itself to reflect playback progress.  A higher polling frequency can theoretically degrade sound quality on a low noise server. 
 

I actually like the far more affordable Glider app on iOS.  Not as sexy nor as feature rich, but it gets the job done.

[stevebythebay]

21 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

They offer a lifetime Windows license for, I think, three times the annual cost of the iOS version.  Not sure they are apples-to-apples in terms of functionality.

 

Some of what they do should provide a sound quality benefit.  There’s a setting that determines how often it refreshes itself to reflect playback progress.  A higher polling frequency can theoretically degrade sound quality on a low noise server. 
 

I actually like the far more affordable Glider app on iOS.  Not as sexy nor as feature rich, but it gets the job done.

I think at $50/year I'd likely pass unless it was a significantly better alternative to Roon.  How is Glider better?

[kennyb123]

2 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

How is Glider better?

I would say that it’s better.  It’s like a reduced functionality version of JPlay that contains only the functionality needed to find and scan libraries, browse your library to play something, and then control playback.  It could be just enough for many users.  

[aangen]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:15 AM, Mike123 said:

Would be grateful for a walk-through in listening to external sources through the MU1. Pretend that you are addressing someone who has been sealed in a stasis chambers for 50 years and was just revived. Any and all replies will not be overly condescending. 

The external devices:

- dvd player with with opt out 

- Apple TV with opt out running via hdmi through Yamaha receiver. 

 

The mu1 is connected via aes to a DAVE with RCA’s out to McIntosh c2500.

Of course I’m not looking to have all three connected at the same time, but would like to enjoy streaming content with audio through the MU1. 
(I’m suspecting that the analog mu2 will make this process a whole lot easier) 

 

thanks in advance !

 

 

 

 

 

I use the AES/EBU Transport output from my Gryphon Ethos to the Grimm. I really like it that way. I have plugged various streamers into it as well. Just toy streamers but fun.

[FredM]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:14 PM, Ronnie112 said:

 

 

Have mine fitted with just a Furutech Flux-50 NCF inline filter which squeezes out the last bit of noise and allows the Grimm to a more quiet background. 

 

Today I was at an audio fair with a demo of the Grimm MU2 on Halcro's and Vivid G1's. Wauw, what an effortless grandness that was.

 

Had the chance to speak with the founder of Yeti Acoustics, specialist in high end power filtering. His advise was not to connect the MUx on a power filter shared with other gear, as it's switching power supply does put a lot of noise back on the mains that may interfere with the other devices. He said the MUx does benefit from filtering when it is dedicated for the MUx. So that underpins both your experience that it sounded better without, as mine that it does sound better with. If that makes any sense.

 

He also told his MU2 was still on backorder but his dCS Vivaldi DAC was already on sale. So looks like the MU2 is playing in another league altogether.

I’m not sure, I guess it depends on the situation. I’ll try to explain, please note I don’t have a technical background or any in depth knowledge on this complicated subject, with all variables that can be relevant.
 

Here we go, as far as I understand an smps is less sensitive for incoming dirty power (then a linear power supply) and is more likely to put noise back on the mains. However, in my situation only (high quality Grimm) smps’s are used, 5 in total. When they’re able to clean up the incoming power, it wouldn’t matter what the source of the noise would be: the incoming power is from the net or cross contamination from an other device, in both cases they would be treated at the entrance of the device. This could be different in a set where both smps and linear power suppliers are used. Perhaps then a choice has to be made to create a clean incoming feed for the linear power supply devices and/or minimise cross contamination between devices. 
 

So far my understanding and assumptions, now the practice. Based on sometimes raving positive feedback by using a conditioner, I was curious what the effect could be in my situation. I was keen to try out different power supply topologies in practice with:

- Pure transformer based conditioner (Audes ST 3000)

- Transformer based with 3 filter groups (Yeti Reference 1000W)

- Separated filtering (Shunyata Venom V6)

- Separated filtering, with cards specific for Class D amps (Inakustik 4500)

- (in an earlier occasion I also tried the Niagara 3000 on a full Grimm set)

 

In all cases the sound did change in some way, but not to my liking. In some cases there was an improvement in specific areas, with specific music, but I experienced a (noticeable) lower overall performance. It impacted the beloved flow, speed (light footedness) and natural (real live like) sound. Sometimes the effect was like pressing a loudness button, leading to an overly powerful dramatic (and slower) sound (impacting the pureness and details like the decay of a piano or fragiel voices).
 

Of course everyone’s mileage may vary, and some may nevertheless prefer using a conditioner in an all smps/class D set, but it’s not my preference. Afters auditioning 5 different conditioners, I’m pleased to close this chapter with a great (and budget friendly) result 😃

 

[PYP]

@FredM, agreed that there are many different variables.  One being the power supplied by the power utility (with undoubtedly different loads during day and night from users).

 

I've often wondered if the different voltages that the US and Europe utilize has an impact.  How about energy source?  Is hydro the cleanest sounding? 🙂  

 

Also agreed that a well-designed SMPS is both very efficient and provide excellent sound.  

[Ronnie112]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Interesting to read what you've tried and the final outcome. So far I am a minimal filtering adept as indeed (proper) power direct from the wall always had the best dynamics and natural flow. But suffering from increasing DC and noise on the powerline (not so much on the MUx, more so the amp) and a chat with Thijs from Yeti had me wondering what filtering could solve. Doubtful to give it a try or not. Mindful I could easily end spending another 5k.

[aangen]

I let a PS Audio P20 feed mine. It seems nice. No desire to change that. A friend of mine recently built a battery system that can power his system for 8+ hours. All from parts on Amazon. Not expensive. That seems interesting…..