Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[Low325]

2 minutes ago, FredM said:

Most likely that won’t be possible. The MU1 player has digital outputs. To carry the all important clock signal to an external DAC, the rate has to be limited to 4fs: which is the max supported by the regular digital cables/interface. A benefit of the MU2 is that streamer and DAC are in one device, opening up possibilities to internally use higher rates (my 2 cents, happy to be corrected).

X2. I think the shorter circuitry (lack of a better word) optimizes the ability to over sample for higher computations. 

[PYP]

1 minute ago, Low325 said:

X2. I think the shorter circuitry (lack of a better word) optimizes the ability to over sample for higher computations. 

Are you considering a demo of the MU2?

[Low325]

Just now, PYP said:

Are you considering a demo of the MU2?

Sigh. I asked my dealer to put me on the list. But I may have to forgo some of those plans. I’ve been playing with some other stuff in the chain. So I may just be happy as a clam with my MU1. :)
 

Now my (unlikely) plans for mu2 could be transpired to a second system. And within that system, it would be optimized with the MU2 quarter backing everything.  But it would require a top to bottom molt unfortunately. 

[Terrycwk]

Wow, your second system sounds like a big project if it’s happening!

[Low325]

9 minutes ago, Terrycwk said:

Wow, your second system sounds like a big project if it’s happening!

Oh no. Not at all. I may have misspoke. 
I will be happy as a clam with my MU1. And no MU2 in my future unfortunately…..(never say never)

[PYP]

14 minutes ago, Low325 said:

Sigh. I asked my dealer to put me on the list. But I may have to forgo some of those plans. I’ve been playing with some other stuff in the chain. So I may just be happy as a clam with my MU1. :)

Happy clam here.  😀  

 

The MMT obviously has synergy with MM amps.  Overall, this is the most musical my setup has sounded and it really pulls me into all kinds of music, not just a list of favorites.  In fact last night, listening to various vocalists, it seemed to be a magical state and I was thinking "nobody move" (in essence) so as to not disturb the spell.   That is all I want and it has taken quite a while to get here.  Molting starts to seem less desirable.  But I think it is great that Grimm has another winner in the MU2.  

[soupcon]

1 hour ago, FredM said:

Most likely that won’t be possible. The MU1 player has digital outputs. To carry the all important clock signal to an external DAC, the rate has to be limited to 4fs: which is the max supported by the regular digital cables/interface. A benefit of the MU2 is that streamer and DAC are in one device, opening up possibilities to internally use higher rates (my 2 cents, happy to be corrected).

forgive my ignorance on this, but does MU1 into LS1be operate at 4fs?

[FredM]

16 minutes ago, soupcon said:

forgive my ignorance on this, but does MU1 into LS1be operate at 4fs?

I don’t know, but I would really like to see the latest Major DAC insights and design to find its way to an upgrade package for existing LS1be users. @Eelco Grimm Count me in! 😀

 

ps I wonder how I can politely entice Grimm Audio to prioritise an LS1 upgrade package on their roadmap. Perhaps some nice warm Brabantse worstenbroodjes will do the trick 😄 (= famous sausage roll in the Netherlands)

[johnli]

9 minutes ago, FredM said:

I don’t know, but I would really like to see the latest Major DAC insights and design to find its way to an upgrade package for existing LS1be users. @Eelco Grimm Count me in! 😀

 

ps I wonder how I can politely entice Grimm Audio to prioritise an LS1 upgrade package on their roadmap. Perhaps some nice warm Brabantse worstenbroodjes will do the trick 😄 (= famous sausage roll in the Netherlands)

I've asked him already!

unfortunately, the Major Dac is not going to be in the LS1be in the short future

hopefully once more LS1be like us reflect our wishes, he might change his mind .....:)

[Evo1668]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:52 AM, TheAttorney said:

How did you remove the stock footers? Did you have to take MU1's top plate off to unscrew them from the inside?

I remember your post earlier this year about being very impressed by the Townsend Seismic pods, but didn't you place them directly under the stock footers? What made you change?

 

I was tempted to try the pods, but I didn't like their very obvious appearance, nor their price at £120 per footer, which was more than I was prepared to spend. So I'm pleased the Auva's compared so well to the pods.

What made me change and remove the stock MU1 footers?  I just felt the contact area of the seismic footers when positioned at the four corners, were being compromised by the stock foot and needed a more uniform surface contact area - this was confirmed when listening with the Auva as well - trying both designs with and without the stock feet in place.  I also don’t care for Hans’ positioning over the baseplate and case edges, as it ever so slightly hardens the presentation and  compromises interferes with the soundstage to my ears.

 

I said previously that both Seismic and Auva compared favourably with each other - one vivid the other dramatic.  Trying to decide which footer I preferred - listening with each design in place over a couple of days, I kept missing what the other footer design contributed.  In a moment of curiosity, I thought to try both footer types together.  The long and short of it being,  the Auva EQ are best placed under the seismic pods - a bit Frankenfooter maybe? 😂 - but both footers together produce something quite remarkable. - it’s not subtle.  You hear in disbelief such tiny details, clearer vocal articulation, mix techniques (good and bad), increased low register articulation and bloom, an increase in soundstage depth and width.  

I reached out to Stack Audio giving my feedback on the Auva and also my experience combining them with the Seismic pods.  They offered to have a listen to the combination as they have the pods themselves  - feedback was largely in agreement with what I was disbelieving/hearing. In that music is overly immersive with a soundstage not heard before.  A wonderful improvement.

 

 

[stevebythebay]

Interesting to know that you and the folks at Grimm are hearing the same things.  Would certainly be nice to have some empirical data on the vibrations, and how they differ under stock, Auva, and the Siesmic, and finally combo Auva/Seismic.  These would necessitate, I think, measuring the shelf vibrations emitted from the MU1 and anything transmitted to the surface of the MU1 itself.  I'd even be tempted to remove the top of the MU1 to find out if the unit is susceptible to airborne vibrations and how these travel to the footers when in both are in place.  Lots of variations.  Likely more than I've considered.

[krass]

9 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

Interesting to know that you and the folks at Grimm are hearing the same things.  

…………

 

he said Stack Audio.

Stack Audio are not Grimm !

[TheAttorney]

9 hours ago, Evo1668 said:

I reached out to Stack Audio giving my feedback on the Auva and also my experience combining them with the Seismic pods.

 

Good that Stack Audio were open minded enough to try this themselves. Hopefully, they will use this knowledge to come up with an even better sounding Mk2 Aura in the future. Because, irrespective of how good it may sound, the Seismic pod on its own is already too Frankenfooter for me. And the extra height, by combining both footers, turns this into a scary monster 💀.

 

Regarding MU1's top plate, I did briefly try an HRS damping plate at various positions along the top. These damping plates have given a subtle, incremental improvement in the past (and I still use them on my DAVE), but I didn't notice any obvious improvement on MU1. It probably doesn't help that MU1's top plate is very slightly curved in places, so hard to get a 100% contact, which is vital for these damping plates.

 

[playtron]

10 hours ago, Evo1668 said:

What made me change and remove the stock MU1 footers?  I just felt the contact area of the seismic footers when positioned at the four corners, were being compromised by the stock foot and needed a more uniform surface contact area - this was confirmed when listening with the Auva as well - trying both designs with and without the stock feet in place.  I also don’t care for Hans’ positioning over the baseplate and case edges, as it ever so slightly hardens the presentation and  compromises interferes with the soundstage to my ears.

 

I said previously that both Seismic and Auva compared favourably with each other - one vivid the other dramatic.  Trying to decide which footer I preferred - listening with each design in place over a couple of days, I kept missing what the other footer design contributed.  In a moment of curiosity, I thought to try both footer types together.  The long and short of it being,  the Auva EQ are best placed under the seismic pods - a bit Frankenfooter maybe? 😂 - but both footers together produce something quite remarkable. - it’s not subtle.  You hear in disbelief such tiny details, clearer vocal articulation, mix techniques (good and bad), increased low register articulation and bloom, an increase in soundstage depth and width.  

I reached out to Stack Audio giving my feedback on the Auva and also my experience combining them with the Seismic pods.  They offered to have a listen to the combination as they have the pods themselves  - feedback was largely in agreement with what I was disbelieving/hearing. In that music is overly immersive with a soundstage not heard before.  A wonderful improvement.

 

 

add a few more feet. not enough. more holo... better than a new DAC.

[stevebythebay]

6 hours ago, krass said:

 

he said Stack Audio.

Stack Audio are not Grimm !

Sorry.  Bad assumption, though I'd expect, given just how meticulous the folks at Grimm are about the product's performance, they'd be interested in this aspect as well.  
 

As for Stack, their documentation only recommends positioning for balanced weight distribution.  Given, in the case of the MU1’s greater rear weight, would suggest locating the side AUVA’s a bit towards the rear.  Am I right about this?

[stevebythebay]

7 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

Good that Stack Audio were open minded enough to try this themselves. Hopefully, they will use this knowledge to come up with an even better sounding Mk2 Aura in the future. Because, irrespective of how good it may sound, the Seismic pod on its own is already too Frankenfooter for me. And the extra height, by combining both footers, turns this into a scary monster 💀.

 

Regarding MU1's top plate, I did briefly try an HRS damping plate at various positions along the top. These damping plates have given a subtle, incremental improvement in the past (and I still use them on my DAVE), but I didn't notice any obvious improvement on MU1. It probably doesn't help that MU1's top plate is very slightly curved in places, so hard to get a 100% contact, which is vital for these damping plates.

 

I too use numerous HRS damping plates on amps, preamp, and dCS components.  But even their smallest ones would barely fit, given the protruding gold control Nob.  Even have a pair of ancient VPI “bricks”.  But these weigh in at nearly 8 1/2 pounds, each!  That would require CSA 3 AUVA’s.  I'll leave that for anyone else inclined to experiment.

[krass]

27 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Sorry.  Bad assumption, though I'd expect, given just how meticulous the folks at Grimm are about the product's performance, they'd be interested in this aspect as well.  
 

…….

 

I suppose it depends on how much they’d believe in this sort of voodoo magic ?

whether they believed it could make a meaningful improvement,

and how much time (= money) they’d want to expend proving it (or not)

 

 

 

 

 

[stevebythebay]

45 minutes ago, krass said:

 

I suppose it depends on how much they’d believe in this sort of voodoo magic ?

whether they believed it could make a meaningful improvement,

and how much time (= money) they’d want to expend proving it (or not)

 

 

 

 

 

Given that they appear to have made clear efforts concerning the MU1’s performance, vis-a-vis power cords, and network cables, it seems logical that trying to mitigate external vibrations would come up as well.

 

But I agree that going after structural, let alone airborne vibrations would be a challenge. And not necessarily in their “wheelhouse”.

[aangen]

Seeing Eelco’s post about 8fs upsampling with the internal DAC in the MU2 got me excited. I told my friend who owns an MU2. We both looked at the controls via the MU2 web page. He was in the room, I was 1000 miles away accessing his computer remotely. All of the controls I am used to on the MU1 are not present on the MU2. No selection for no upsampling, 2fs, 4fs, -3dB (which Eelco explained that there is no need for)

 

It is a much simplified interface.    So……

Is the MU2 set for maximum upsampling with no ability, or need to change this setting? Is DSD256 no longer down sampled? (Not that it ever bothered me)

 

 I quickly went through the MU2 manual and may have missed where this is mentioned. I am curious what the upper limits are with DSD and PCM. How high is a 16.44.1 file upsampled to? 
 

I have to hear one of these!!!

[Ronnie112]

2 minutes ago, aangen said:

Seeing Eelco’s post about 8f

 

It is a much simplified interface.    So……

 

I have to hear one of these!!!

You should definitely hear the MU2. I didn't look at the interface much tbh and didn't notice 2fs and 4fs were not there. It is a simple play and forget kind of experience. As soon as you hear the music coming out of it, it is just pure enjoyment.

[matthias]

@Eelco Grimm

How do you rate the SQ of the DAC in the MU2 in comparison to the Grimm UC1?

If it is superior to the UC1 will there be a replacement for the UC1 with the technology of the MU2 DAC?

Thanks

[stevebythebay]

6 hours ago, aangen said:

Seeing Eelco’s post about 8fs upsampling with the internal DAC in the MU2 got me excited. I told my friend who owns an MU2. We both looked at the controls via the MU2 web page. He was in the room, I was 1000 miles away accessing his computer remotely. All of the controls I am used to on the MU1 are not present on the MU2. No selection for no upsampling, 2fs, 4fs, -3dB (which Eelco explained that there is no need for)

 

It is a much simplified interface.    So……

Is the MU2 set for maximum upsampling with no ability, or need to change this setting? Is DSD256 no longer down sampled? (Not that it ever bothered me)

 

 I quickly went through the MU2 manual and may have missed where this is mentioned. I am curious what the upper limits are with DSD and PCM. How high is a 16.44.1 file upsampled to? 
 

I have to hear one of these!!!

This doc “What sets the MU2 apart from other streaming DACs?” states:

 

3. Math

The MU2 employs an extremely powerful FPGA processor with the most sophisticated upsampling and noise shaping algorithms in the audio industry today. Grimm Audio discovered that this performance level is key to remove all veils between the listener and the artists.

 

And there's this in the software manual:

 

The MU2 can play all file formats that Roon supports, such as wav and flac, and has native support of PCM formats up to 8x the base rate (8FS or “DXD”) and of DSD formats up to DSD256.

 

So, it would seem that a user should be offered options, as with the MU1, for upsampling or not and from 1FS up through and including 8FS.  

 

However, given that this is a streamer/DAC, it follows the typical design of always doing the “upsampling” invisibly.  Usually upsampling, as in the case of the dCS Upsampler, is accomplished as a separate operation on a separate component, relieving the DAC of the compute intensive heavy lifting of upsampling by delivering, for example, DXD to the DAC.  

 

Anyone know the processing power of the MU2’s FPGA processor?  That is where the upsampling takes place, prior to the work of the DAC’s digital to analog conversion.  And I'm guessing the filters may be applied by the FPGA or maybe within the DAC processing.

 

[Lyons77]

I just placed an order for the MU2 in the U.S., hopefully scheduled to arrive by the end of January.  Has anyone already received the MU2 in the US?   I'm not a Roon user, but will give Roon a try if other software is not available for streaming from Qobuz.

 

I watched the Munich show reports on youtube and a really great interview with Eelco. The review by Hans Beekhuyzen sealed the deal. Looking forward to reading more reviews while I wait!  

[FredM]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:50 PM, johnli said:

I've asked him already!

unfortunately, the Major Dac is not going to be in the LS1be in the short future

hopefully once more LS1be like us reflect our wishes, he might change his mind .....:)

Thanks, with more LS1be user participation, we can even draw up a schedule to -for example- deliver the beloved Brabantse worstenbroodjes at Grimm HQ each Tuesday afternoon. I’m sure this will boost creatively to design an upgrade to open new levels of musical enjoyment.

Seriously, it would be nothing less than awesome when Grimm offers an upgrade option. Recently I already ‘saved’ quite a bit: with no need to buy a power conditioner, I would happily direct the funds to an LS1 upgrade 👍

[aangen]

A friend of mine has one, here in the states. He has had it for a couple weeks now. He says it seems nice.