Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[krass]

3 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

December is only a week away and there is no news about the firmware update yet. Can Eelco give us a preview of the release date?

 

you repeatedly ask the same unecessary question, last time just 6 days ago on 13 November when you were referred to Eelco’s earlier answer on the subject.
 

We are very lucky to have people like Eelco who engage with this user forum. At best you are for some reason unnecessarily impatient (maybe you don’t want to pay for a Roon license ?? 🤔 )

At worst you are just deliberately trolling the forum. 

 

What, really, is your motive for this persistent behaviour ?

[stevebythebay]

6 hours ago, Low325 said:

The mighty MU1 still going strong, really love mine - never a hiccup with it and still such an integral piece in the chain.
 

Congrats  to all the MU2 owners, and hats off to the Grimm Audio team for what seems to be another tremendous product…! 
 

Looking forward to hear more reviews of the MU2. 
 

Also just want to give a really big shout out to the N.A. Grimm Audio rep. Outstanding support every step of the way for inquiries and professional service; (opting for an internal SSD.)

 

[stevebythebay]

Agree that John-Paul Lizars has been both responsive and diligent in reaching out to the tech folks at Grimm to get answers to my gnarliest questions. 

[Low325]

13 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Agree that John-Paul Lizars has been both responsive and diligent in reaching out to the tech folks at Grimm to get answers to my gnarliest questions. 

Thank you. I was a little distracted and for the life of me couldn’t remember his name as I typed!  He deserves to be mentioned for sure!  

[stevebythebay]

On 11/16/2023 at 8:24 PM, PYP said:

Not in your imagination.  I tried 3 and, as you say, the magic is nearly gone.  Back to 4...  I do think it takes many hours (maybe 8?) to fully hear changes in position, so this isn't a quick A/B perspective.  The sides of my MU1 extend a bit beyond the bottom plate, therefore I just tried to get an evenly-spaced distribution. 

 

I wish I understood the vibration vectors.  John Swenson has posted about the sensitivity of clocks to vibration that travels through floors, etc (IIRC).  That makes sense to me since footers that I have tried have had the greatest effect on DACs.  But these footers also (slightly) improved my power distributor that only has passive elements inside.  Does vibration travel along power cords (even very heavy ones)?

 

It makes sense that the overall effect of the footer will be affected by the rack one uses as well as cabling (since some cable manufacturers use damping material specifically to reduce vibration).   

As I understand it, for power cables and others lying on the floor, the issues involve both vibration and static charge differentials that can cloud fine detail in sound according to Shunyata and AV Room Service.  However it is dependent, as you might imagine, on the cable design.

[Mike123]

Would be grateful for a walk-through in listening to external sources through the MU1. Pretend that you are addressing someone who has been sealed in a stasis chambers for 50 years and was just revived. Any and all replies will not be overly condescending. 

The external devices:

- dvd player with with opt out 

- Apple TV with opt out running via hdmi through Yamaha receiver. 

 

The mu1 is connected via aes to a DAVE with RCA’s out to McIntosh c2500.

Of course I’m not looking to have all three connected at the same time, but would like to enjoy streaming content with audio through the MU1. 
(I’m suspecting that the analog mu2 will make this process a whole lot easier) 

 

thanks in advance !

 

 

 

 

 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, stevebythebay said:

As I understand it, for power cables and others lying on the floor, the issues involve both vibration and static charge differentials that can cloud fine detail in sound according to Shunyata and AV Room Service.  However it is dependent, as you might imagine, on the cable design.

Wouldn't it be great to have a diagnostic that would tell us what to fix and how?  For example, identify impedance mismatches, best speaker position, position for acoustic treatments, vibration vectors, power delivery problems, etc.).   All of these are fun to explore but can also a major PITA when they interact with each other.    OK, back to our usual channel.  

 

Just to keep within the general topic here, I do appreciate how the MU1 is relatively immune to power variability problems (power delivered by electric utility) and network noise (of course, both of these can be improved).  And also a call-out to reliability through black-outs/brown-outs and countless Roon updates.

[FredM]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

I do appreciate how the MU1 is relatively immune to power variability problems (power delivered by electric utility)

1+
 

Recently I auditioned 4 power conditioners at home on a full Grimm set (MU1, LS1be speakers with the DMF subs). Long story short: I prefer the ‘normal’ Grimm set, without conditioners 👍

[Ronnie112]

 

 

33 minutes ago, FredM said:

Long story short: I prefer the ‘normal’ Grimm set, without conditioners 

Have mine fitted with just a Furutech Flux-50 NCF inline filter which squeezes out the last bit of noise and allows the Grimm to a more quiet background. 

 

Today I was at an audio fair with a demo of the Grimm MU2 on Halcro's and Vivid G1's. Wauw, what an effortless grandness that was.

 

Had the chance to speak with the founder of Yeti Acoustics, specialist in high end power filtering. His advise was not to connect the MUx on a power filter shared with other gear, as it's switching power supply does put a lot of noise back on the mains that may interfere with the other devices. He said the MUx does benefit from filtering when it is dedicated for the MUx. So that underpins both your experience that it sounded better without, as mine that it does sound better with. If that makes any sense.

 

He also told his MU2 was still on backorder but his dCS Vivaldi DAC was already on sale. So looks like the MU2 is playing in another league altogether.

[stevebythebay]

17 minutes ago, Ronnie112 said:

 

 

Have mine fitted with just a Furutech Flux-50 NCF inline filter which squeezes out the last bit of noise and allows the Grimm to a more quiet background. 

 

Today I was at an audio fair with a demo of the Grimm MU2 on Halcro's and Vivid G1's. Wauw, what an effortless grandness that was.

 

Had the chance to speak with the founder of Yeti Acoustics, specialist in high end power filtering. His advise was not to connect the MUx on a power filter shared with other gear, as it's switching power supply does put a lot of noise back on the mains that may interfere with the other devices. He said the MUx does benefit from filtering when it is dedicated for the MUx. So that underpins both your experience that it sounded better without, as mine that it does sound better with. If that makes any sense.

 

He also told his MU2 was still on backorder but his dCS Vivaldi DAC was already on sale. So looks like the MU2 is playing in another league altogether.

Interesting.  I've been using a Shunyata VENOM VI4 NR for this very reason. I've been using the same cable with a JVC projector in another part of my home.  The JVC also puts a fair amount of noise back into the circuit.  Relatively inexpensive for what it does: https://shunyata.com/products/power-cables/venom-line-power-cables/venom-v14-nr/

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Ronnie112 said:

Had the chance to speak with the founder of Yeti Acoustics, specialist in high end power filtering. His advise was not to connect the MUx on a power filter shared with other gear, as it's switching power supply does put a lot of noise back on the mains that may interfere with the other devices. He said the MUx does benefit from filtering when it is dedicated for the MUx. So that underpins both your experience that it sounded better without, as mine that it does sound better with. If that makes any sense.

 

That is interesting.  One of the advantages to the Shunyata power distributors is the component-to-component isolation.  That may just sound like a manufacturer's claim, but it has worked very well in my setup.  The increase in timbre and tone, without any loss of PRAT, is easily heard and contributes to my enjoyment of and appreciation for the musicians.  In the past, I've used balanced power, isolation transformer, choke-based and capacitor-based "conditioners" and none did what the Shunyata does (in my system, to my ears).  

 

Good to hear that the MU2 is making an impression among some experienced listeners.    

[stevebythebay]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

That is interesting.  One of the advantages to the Shunyata power distributors is the component-to-component isolation.  That may just sound like a manufacturer's claim, but it has worked very well in my setup.  The increase in timbre and tone, without any loss of PRAT, is easily heard and contributes to my enjoyment of and appreciation for the musicians.  In the past, I've used balanced power, isolation transformer, choke-based and capacitor-based "conditioners" and none did what the Shunyata does (in my system, to my ears).  

 

Good to hear that the MU2 is making an impression among some experienced listeners.    

I'm a big fan of Caelin's technology, as you can tell from my signature.  I probably could have simply plugged in the power cable that came with the MU1 into my Everest, but since I already had his Venom V14 NR, it certainly couldn't hurt to use it.  

The only thing I've found so far that differs from what others seem to have set up with their MU1, is upsampling.  I'd tested the MU1 options for 2FS and 4FS but it turns out my dCS combination of Upsampler and DAC are better in this regard.  It would be interesting to see how well the newer MU2 fares in this regard.

[Nicholas Dong]

12小时前，克拉斯说：

 

你反复问同样的必要问题，上次是在6天前的11月13日，当时有人提到了Eelco早些时候关于这个问题的回答。
 

我们很幸运有像Eelco这样的人参与这个用户论坛。充其量，出于某种原因，你没有必要不耐烦（也许你不想为Roon执照付费??🤔）

在最坏的情况下，你只是故意挑逗论坛。

 

你这种持续行为的动机到底是什么？

You may never know how much impact Roon has on MU1, because you are only immersed in the world of ROON. To be honest with you, I haven’t turned on Mu1 for half a year. My DAC is a Merging Nadac connected to a desktop PC through Revanna and passed Emotion played the master file, and I compared it with the win version of Roon. The result of the comparison is that day and night, Roon is really not worth mentioning and has no merit.

[soupcon]

i’m looking forward to bypassing roon on the mu1

[stevebythebay]

12 minutes ago, Nicholas Dong said:

You may never know how much impact Roon has on MU1, because you are only immersed in the world of ROON. To be honest with you, I haven’t turned on Mu1 for half a year. My DAC is a Merging Nadac connected to a desktop PC through Revanna and passed Emotion played the master file, and I compared it with the win version of Roon. The result of the comparison is that day and night, Roon is really not worth mentioning and has no merit.

And you're point?  Why do you even have an MU1?  Anyone who's still using a PC, trying to get a positive sonic result, would never even think to purchase a purpose built device like an MU1.  That, and all the excess baggage of Windows or macOS, which gets in the way, only makes things worse.   OK, so maybe you got it as a gift...yet saddled without a Roon license?  If so, I can understand why you're pining away for UPnP/DLNA for less expensive music "library" access.  I get that.  Yet Roon offers far more for those of us who want music content and all that goes with it.

[Nicholas Dong]

9 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

And you're point?  Why do you even have an MU1?  Anyone who's still using a PC, trying to get a positive sonic result, would never even think to purchase a purpose built device like an MU1.  That, and all the excess baggage of Windows or macOS, which gets in the way, only makes things worse.   OK, so maybe you got it as a gift...yet saddled without a Roon license?  If so, I can understand why you're pining away for UPnP/DLNA for less expensive music "library" access.  I get that.  Yet Roon offers far more for those of us who want music content and all that goes with it.

I have finally discovered that MU1 users buy them for the convenience of ROON instead of pursuing perfect sound. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1. I have said it clearly enough. In addition, I bought my MU1 from a dealer. Roon I also bought it for a year

[PYP]

29 minutes ago, Nicholas Dong said:

I have finally discovered that MU1 users buy them for the convenience of ROON instead of pursuing perfect sound. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1. I have said it clearly enough. In addition, I bought my MU1 from a dealer. Roon I also bought it for a year

What you hear is what you hear.  Perfectly valid.  But it isn't what I hear (nor my wife who very much enjoys music through our system and doesn't care about gear or software).   Therefore, it doesn't follow that you can generalize from your ears and system.  

 

I'm curious to try other software because this hobby is all about trying alternatives, but it isn't because I don't enjoy Roon + MU1.  If I hadn't thought the MU1 improved my setup during the demo period, I would not have purchased it.  Of course, long-term satisfaction is the best test and during the nine month "trial" the MU1 has made listening to music enjoyable.  

[stevebythebay]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Dong said:

I have finally discovered that MU1 users buy them for the convenience of ROON instead of pursuing perfect sound. Roon will destroy the sound performance of MU1. I have said it clearly enough. In addition, I bought my MU1 from a dealer. Roon I also bought it for a year

Interesting.  I began years ago with Roon as an alternative to merely using any other software as playback alone.  I wanted the greater flexibility in managing many zones (endpoints) for playing my diverse and extensive library of music (today I've nearly 10k albums and over 100k songs).  Along with that it offers a means for learning about new and old artists I've never even thought of.  And it allows for access to internet stations from around the world that I'd never experienced, as well as Qobuz, which I've used before I knew of Roon.  And with Roon ARC I can access my library no matter where I happen to be in the world - though it's via an iPhone and IEM.

 

The only thing missing is traditional LP liner notes, though that may come in time.  I've yet to go for the "self driving" aspect of Roon "radio" function, since I am used to directing what I play.  Yet the serendipity of letting it take me to unexpected places is enticing.  

 

Though the platforms I've used with Roon began with a PC and later Mac Mini, I eventually acquired a Roon Nucleus but knew if I found a better hardware solution that ran the Roon Server I'd move to that.  So, that's how I arrived at the MU1.  Could have spent more for Antipodes or even a Taiko.  My dealer encouraged me to give the Grimm product a try.  It's clearly far more than head and shoulders above the Nucleus.  I'm interested in the upcoming MU1 update to have UPnP/DLNA support.  Would like to give JPLAY a go in my iPad to find out if it provides a sonically better alternative for library playback (using Minimserver on my NAS).

[soupcon]

at the beginning of the MU1 saga, the selling proposition seemed to be in part that the MU1 tech would overcome the inherent (and obviously audible) sonic disadvantages of Roon. Since Grimm has announced upcoming support for other players, I think many of us are waiting for a potential other shoe to drop should those other options sound better than Roon, proving that Roon is just inherently and irredeemably flawed sonically. If we find this to be the case, I won't be in any way disappointed with my purchase of the MU1. Even with Roon, it's buggy database, poor handling of metadata and pathetic support, I have so much more fully enjoyed music since its purchase. I got a nice deal on a used one, but I'd easily spend the money for a new one. 

[matthias]

4 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

My DAC is a Merging Nadac connected to a desktop PC through Revanna and passed Emotion played the master file, and I compared it with the win version of Roon.

Interesting,

please share more details about your Ravenna set-up.

Do you also streaming from streaming services like Qobuz?

Thx

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, soupcon said:

at the beginning of the MU1 saga, the selling proposition seemed to be in part that the MU1 tech would overcome the inherent (and obviously audible) sonic disadvantages of Roon. Since Grimm has announced upcoming support for other players, I think many of us are waiting for a potential other shoe to drop should those other options sound better than Roon, proving that Roon is just inherently and irredeemably flawed sonically. If we find this to be the case, I won't be in any way disappointed with my purchase of the MU1. Even with Roon, it's buggy database, poor handling of metadata and pathetic support, I have so much more fully enjoyed music since its purchase. I got a nice deal on a used one, but I'd easily spend the money for a new one. 

Not only Grimm users but also Antipodes users are dissatisfied with Roon but Antipodes users have alternatives.

From user reports only Taiko succeeded (with a lot of expensive hardware) to make Roon sound good.

 

Matt

[Ronnie112]

1 hour ago, soupcon said:

at the beginning of the MU1 .... but I'd easily spend the money for a new one. 

Couldn't agree more, including the crappie service of ROON. Think I stated it before, I still like ROON, for exploring new music as well as the SQ. If the SQ can be better with non-ROON options, I will give it a try, but not at the expense of not having an interface that allows me to explore new music. Although ROON may apply some more algorithms to their Radio, because after a song or 3, I always end up at the same tunes somehow.

 

And a message to the ones constantly pushing for a new release; have patience with all things but first of all with yourself.

[Eelco Grimm]

Re. the Roon SQ discussion: we regularly check if Roon is still bit tansparent, and it is - as long as you turn off all possible DSP and volume control etc it offers. Please read the MU1 and MU2 manuals about how to do this. SQ differences between bit transparent player softwares are related to the CPU activity and the ability of the device to isolate a possible impact of that activity via the CPU power supply on the audio clocks. It is our specialism to design high quality SMPS supplies, shunt regulators with high isolation (130 dB...) and oscillators with the lowest possible sensitivity to external interference. But then still we need to use a high performance jitter analyser to check if the design turned out right. And it does. We believe that combining knowledge and measurements is the best way to high performance audio quality. Does this make the MU1 and MU2 totally immune? That is hard to tell since first of all the increased resolution allows to hear even smaller differences. And secondly, it is not just the MU1 and MU2 that are subjected to for instance inavoidable ground loop currents, but also the downstream equipment of which we have no control. But we do hope to have achieved a level of immunity that satisfies the vast majority of listeners. 

 

Eelco

[stevebythebay]

6 hours ago, matthias said:

Not only Grimm users but also Antipodes users are dissatisfied with Roon but Antipodes users have alternatives.

From user reports only Taiko succeeded (with a lot of expensive hardware) to make Roon sound good.

 

Matt

I'm bewildered. If Roon is inherently as sonically bad as it's suggested, how can better hardware make it better?  What supposed secret sauce in hardware would fix it?  What higher-end players are focused on is solving hardware-related issues with digital processing.  It's like thinking you can fix a poorly shot photo in the darkroom.  Certainly you can manipulate it all you want.  But you can't retrieve what's not in the negative.

[pvanosta]

I take these statements about the 'obvious sonic disadvantages of Roon' with a grain of salt. Either my ears are not sophisticated enough to be perturbed by this supposedly inferior sound quality, OR there is something else going on. I'm somewhat reminded of the conversations between wine connoisseurs when discussing a 200$ bottle versus a 2000$ bottle and waxing lyrical about the details. A lot of it is subjective and by definition unscientific and personal.

I have been streaming for 10 years across a wide variety of hardware (streamers, DACS, streamer/DACs, ...) from Cambridge and Oppo via Auralic, Hegel and Devialet Expert pro. I am also an early adopter of Roon, with a lifetime subscription when it was still only 500$. This was after years of trying to get JRiver to do what I wanted it to. I was a textbook case of audiophilia nervosa, reading all the magazines in 3 languages and always on the lookout for the next big thing or the newest tweak. Then I discovered Grimm. I moved to an end-to-end Grimm-only system and I have not looked back since. Now I focus on listening to music and I hear nothing wrong with Roon. So like I said: either my ears are just not good enough, or Eelco's statement is correct, that Roon is bit-transparent and the MU1 is as well-isolated against interference as it can be made to be within the confines of consumer engineering. To those of you who hate Roon so much: why did you buy a device that can only play Roon, when there are so many other high-end options (Aurender, Lumin, Merging, etc....) to choose from?