HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[mushi]

I hear you bro, you might be right about miniDSP, my knowledge of clocking is almost none so i'm investigating miniDSP now. A moment ago i wrote to their support and we'll see what they answer. miniDSP has ADSP-21489 processor inside, but if it is responsible for the clocking and how does it relate to MAY, i don't know. Maybe in the worst case scenario something like Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock would help, what do you think?

 

As for cables i use Mogami:

- Reference Digital 3173 AES/EBU 110Ω DMX

- S/PDIF 2964 RCA Digital 75Ω

[mogami claim that lifetime warranty;]

 

I can still try to borrow some other source with aes-ebu output and we'll see what happens then.

 

9 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Maybe switch to using roon volume control and don't use the minidsp. That way you can use USB instead. Plus roon has incredibly powerful and easier to Configure dsp options anyway

 

Noooo, i'm afraid it's impossible because my new children arrived yesterday

 

I think that dsp from Roon can't handle setup with two subwoofers (crossover, filters, phase correction), mini is a tank in my setup: dsp, preamp and roon endpoint.

[GoldenOne]

Well, easiest way would be to grab another AES source (if your adi-2 is the pro rather than the dac, then you can actually use it as a digital OUT as well so could use that to check it works.

Worst case just turn off the may PLL.
But yeah, I'd imagine its a minidsp issue unfortunately. But can confirm if it is with the aforementioned test

[mushi]

Almost forgot: thanks for the help @GoldenOne ;)

 

I'll let you know when miniDSP support team writes back.

[mushi]

Yup, turning off PLL works perfectly.

Apparently this problem happen when a source spdif signal is out of standard clock tolerance(+-50ppm)

 

I'm curious what the miniDSP clocking looks like, and i wonder if it can be improved somehow?..

 

 

[barrows]

3 hours ago, mushi said:

Yup, turning off PLL works perfectly.

Apparently this problem happen when a source spdif signal is out of standard clock tolerance(+-50ppm)

 

I'm curious what the miniDSP clocking looks like, and i wonder if it can be improved somehow?..

 

 

This confirms that the mini DSP has too much jitter.  When you turn off the PLL of the May, then all the jitter from the mini DSP goes right on through to the output of the DAC, and you are not getting the sound quality that you paid for.  Time to ditch the mini DSP if you want to achieve the sound quality which the May DAC is capable of. 

[juanitox]

or time to use the inside dac of the MiniDSP SHD wich seems very good,  https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-minidsp-shd-dac-dsp-and-streamer.4286/

sometimes simpler is better aand you will save a lot of money..

[mushi]

5 hours ago, barrows said:

This confirms that the mini DSP has too much jitter.  When you turn off the PLL of the May, then all the jitter from the mini DSP goes right on through to the output of the DAC, and you are not getting the sound quality that you paid for.  Time to ditch the mini DSP if you want to achieve the sound quality which the May DAC is capable of. 

"when a source spdif signal is out of standard clock tolerance(+-50ppm)" this is what my seller says. He also says that his HoloAudio MAY connected to Panasonic TV (through Toslink! which has worse jitter than aes-ebu) works flawless.

 

Panasonic TV is not a Pro Audio Device. miniDSP is. So it's reasonable to assume that my HoloAudio may be broken.

 

Of course there is a chance that miniDSP may have a very serious deffect, but we don't know this yet. We can bet. Chances are 50/50. It must be either a gigantic error generated by miniDSP or the HoloAudio PLL circuit is defective.

 

4 hours ago, juanitox said:

or time to use the inside dac of the MiniDSP SHD wich seems very good,  https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-minidsp-shd-dac-dsp-and-streamer.4286/

sometimes simpler is better aand you will save a lot of money..

Bro, it would save me a lot of money, time and nerves.. but i've got SHD Studio, without DAC..

 

 

[GoldenOne]

@mushido you have a pc with optical output you can try? If that does not work with pll then you know its the dac.

 

If it does, you know it's the minidsp

[mushi]

No Goldie, there is no toslink (MSI GS65).
I call dealers now, looking for good one who will agree to lend me a source with digital spdif output.

[Diavolo]

On 10/8/2020 at 10:36 AM, barrows said:

This confirms that the mini DSP has too much jitter.  When you turn off the PLL of the May, then all the jitter from the mini DSP goes right on through to the output of the DAC, and you are not getting the sound quality that you paid for.  Time to ditch the mini DSP if you want to achieve the sound quality which the May DAC is capable of. 

I had locking and intermittent audio drop out with my nvidia shield sending audio through my Samsung HDTV via Toslink.  I simply enable PCM Oversampling on the May when I watch things on the Shield.

 

For my music I rely on USB to my Sigao custom fanless heatsink chassis pc from https://www.atlastsolutions.com/sigao-model-b-fanless-pc-10th-gen-10-core-i9-10900t-up-to-64gb-most-powerful-fanless-pc-ever-h470i/ . It's equipped with a 10th Gen I9 Intel 10-core Processor running Roon and Hqplayer locally. I also power the Sigao with a brand new 300w HDPLEX linear psu. I drive the May KTE with a PCM 1.536MHZ signal. ( I use MinringFIR-mp, LNS15) I like DSD512 as well, but for me there's more lively detail on the PCM settings and for whatever reason I prefer that more detailed sound). I've had the May KTE for about 3 weeks and I can unequivocally state I will never own a chip based DAC ever again! The sound is superbly rendered, eerily palpable and holographic and the closest I've ever heard to the real thing in over 25 years of being in this hobby.  I wholeheartedly recommend the Holo May KTE to anyone who wants the gestalt of a genuine performance with absolutely nothing at all  in the way.  Perfection personified! You owe yourself to own this dac. 

 

Cheers, 

Jon 

[John Hughes]

So, I've been looking at the Terminator. Just checking to see if anyone here has heard both the May and Terminator?  

[GoldenOne]

One guy on head-fi owned both. 

He sold the terminator and kept the may

[Dacyanicky]

I have been looking at both for a while and it seems the Terminator is outstanding. The following youtube channel has just reviewed the Terminator and has the May in for review. I am waiting to see the results. I have not found other r2r dacs that compare for the price. 

 

 

[Miska]

AFAIK, the two are technically very different...

[skipspence]

Interesting to know what differences are between them, could you please enlighten?

[Diavolo]

After considering the terminator+ and May dacs, I ultimately went with the May because of their superb measured performance when compared to the Terminator Plus. They will not disclose detailed measurements when asked. I'm also not fond of the Terminator's design

 When compared to the much better thought out solution from Holo. 

[barrows]

One big difference between these two DACs is that the Terminator DACs do not have any additional output stage to drive the output, and hence they have a rather high output impedance.  It does appear that Holo Audio pays a lot of attention to the design of their output stages as well, with a hybrid design and an IC based I/V section and a discrete transistor drive section.  Additionally, one cannot achieve the very excellent measurements of the May without the output stage being very, very well engineered. 

[Miska]

12 hours ago, skipspence said:

Interesting to know what differences are between them, could you please enlighten?

 

Holo Audio has pretty steep analog reconstruction filter, while Denafrips doesn't seem to have much if any (maybe first order)? So the stuff between the conversion section and output differs quite a lot.

 

[punit]

I am looking to upgrade from Holo Spring & was considering the Terminator Plus or Holo May.I need a Dac, which can connect both outputs (XLR & RCA) simultaneously without degrading SQ. The dealer for Terminator confirmed that if you connect both outputs simultaneously, it will degrade SQ, so I ruled it out.

 

The Holo Spring Dac does not degrade SQ when both output's   are connected simultaneously, so I assume same will apply to May.

[fds]

@MiskaWondering about the sonic implications of a steep analog reconstruction filter? Does it mean it will roll off earlier in the frequency response and thus sound less open? Looking at the Stereophile measurements of Mays NOS mode, one sees a somewhat early roll off. Wondering how much HQP could help here, e.g., by upsampling to 706.5kHz or to DSD256 or higher? Also since the Stereophile measurements of JA do not consider the DSD DAC inside the May, I am wondering how the corresponding results would look like? Any experience maybe from measurements of your Holo Audio Spring (2) that you would be willing to share with us?

[opus101]

1 hour ago, fds said:

Wondering about the sonic implications of a steep analog reconstruction filter?

 

If the Holo DAC model being spoken about is the Holo May Level 3 reviewed by Stereophile here : https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements then it clearly doesn't have a steep analog filter. Fig 1 shows only ringing from the AP's LPF and fig 2 shows classic stair steps - both measurements indicating that if any filter is present its very far from being steep in NOS mode at least. A steep filter in NOS would kick in around 20kHz and render a much smoother sinewave in fig2 and contribute post-ringing in fig1.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, fds said:

@MiskaWondering about the sonic implications of a steep analog reconstruction filter? Does it mean it will roll off earlier in the frequency response and thus sound less open?

 

Sonic implications are mostly more accurate analog signal reconstruction. You always need analog reconstruction filter after the conversion stage. Combination of digital oversampling filters, noise-shaper/modulator, possible conversion filter and analog reconstruction filter are supposed to remove all images and noise from the analog output, leaving just accurate reconstruction of the original analog signal.

 

Because digital sampling rate cannot be infinite, you always need analog reconstruction filter that should effectively make the sampling rate disappear from the analog signal. Oversampling/upsampling exists for the purpose of making this job easier for the analog filter and helps it perform better. It is also important part with high speed noise shapers.

 

2 hours ago, fds said:

Looking at the Stereophile measurements of Mays NOS mode, one sees a somewhat early roll off.

 

In NOS mode the roll-off depends on the input sampling rate, since in OS mode the conversion stage runs at fixed rate. If you run a NOS DAC at 44.1k or similar low rate, you will certainly have early roll-off. This is mathematical nature of the conversion itself. It mostly rolls off between 1/4th and half of the sampling rate. If you use NOS mode and input for example 768k, this roll-off is between 192 and 384 kHz.

 

Even with oversampling there can be still a bit of roll-off depending on the analog filter design, where it's -3 dB corner frequency has been set at design time. Higher the oversampling ratio, higher this corner frequency can be designed and less negative implications such as early roll-off and phase-shift there are in the audio band.

 

2 hours ago, fds said:

Wondering how much HQP could help here, e.g., by upsampling to 706.5kHz or to DSD256 or higher?

 

Of course it does, because the system is not "NOS" anymore. The OS is in HQPlayer. So the frequency response is same or better than in OS mode.

 

2 hours ago, fds said:

Also since the Stereophile measurements of JA do not consider the DSD DAC inside the May, I am wondering how the corresponding results would look like? Any experience maybe from measurements of your Holo Audio Spring (2) that you would be willing to share with us?

 

My guess is that the results look pretty similar to the Spring 2 ones I've published in the corresponding thread.

 

[fds]

Thanks a lot. Very helpful. In fact I had been searching in the Spring 2 thread but was not able to find a freq response plot for the DSD DAC part or the Spring 2. I will check again ... in case you remember the page that will be great to know.

[fds]

So I have found again this post from the Holo Audio Spring Thread that seems to be revelant for the May as well. In my view it clearly documents the benefits of HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 before sending digital to the May in NOS mode. Still wondering about the shape of the frequency response zoomed in up to say 196kHz when feeding the Spring (or May) with DSD256 or DSD512. 

[57gold]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:37 PM, Diavolo said:

I had locking and intermittent audio drop out with my nvidia shield sending audio through my Samsung HDTV via Toslink.  I simply enable PCM Oversampling on the May when I watch things on the Shield.

 

For my music I rely on USB to my Sigao custom fanless heatsink chassis pc from https://www.atlastsolutions.com/sigao-model-b-fanless-pc-10th-gen-10-core-i9-10900t-up-to-64gb-most-powerful-fanless-pc-ever-h470i/ . It's equipped with a 10th Gen I9 Intel 10-core Processor running Roon and Hqplayer locally. I also power the Sigao with a brand new 300w HDPLEX linear psu. I drive the May KTE with a PCM 1.536MHZ signal. ( I use MinringFIR-mp, LNS15) I like DSD512 as well, but for me there's more lively detail on the PCM settings and for whatever reason I prefer that more detailed sound). I've had the May KTE for about 3 weeks and I can unequivocally state I will never own a chip based DAC ever again! The sound is superbly rendered, eerily palpable and holographic and the closest I've ever heard to the real thing in over 25 years of being in this hobby.  I wholeheartedly recommend the Holo May KTE to anyone who wants the gestalt of a genuine performance with absolutely nothing at all  in the way.  Perfection personified! You owe yourself to own this dac. 

 

Cheers, 

Jon 

 

Jon, Using a quad core Mac Mini from 2012, bought new in 2015, as dedicated server and the Sigao unit looks like a reasonably priced powerful and quiet replacement option.  Currently, convert all files to DSD128 and feed to a Mytek B+, its limit with a Mac.  Have never heard an R2R DAC, but reading about them hear has me thinking about one.

 

Couple of questions:  

• What do you use to control volume, given the May's lack of volume control?  
• I don't see an option for a video card in the SIgao unit for additional processing power, but maybe that's not needed for DSD512 with the new CPUs?  
• Do you wifi to the unit to control it with a laptop/iPad or use a hard wired screen? Presently I screen share with the Mini.
• Does your external LPS alleviate the need for an in unit power supply, or is it set up to power only part of the PC?

Thanks