HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Savolax]

Yeah, can't argue against the facts mentioned albeit the gear spaghetti I preferred more. And with my lower lever knowledge I won't even try to guess what or why would it make better that way. 

 

[John Hughes]

So I am using both the USB and i2S inputs with my May.  However my i2S source is inferior to my USB source and not my critical listening path.  I am basically using a inexpensive Ebay sourced USB to i2S Converter on my Nvidia Shield output so that I can have two USB output devices connected to the May.   

 

The May has some issues locking to that i2S signal, it takes it about 15 seconds when switching to lock.  The NVidia outputs everything to 192K, but sometimes the May switches to 48K when I open some apps like Netflix.  My previous dacs never switched from 192K (though did take a while to connect), so I suspect its a PLL issue caused by Mays tight PLL tolerances, as stated by others in this thread.  I also think this is more about the cheap i2S converter than about the May.

 

I'd like to try a better USB to i2S converter to see if that's the issue, but frankly don't need to spend that kind of money for this source.

[GoldenOne]

6 minutes ago, John Hughes said:

So I am using both the USB and i2S inputs with my May.  However my i2S source is inferior to my USB source and not my critical listening path.  I am basically using a inexpensive Ebay sourced USB to i2S Converter on my Nvidia Shield output so that I can have two USB output devices connected to the May.   

 

The May has some issues locking to that i2S signal, it takes it about 15 seconds when switching to lock.  The NVidia outputs everything to 192K, but sometimes the May switches to 48K when I open some apps like Netflix.  My previous dacs never switched from 192K (though did take a while to connect), so I suspect its a PLL issue caused by Mays tight PLL tolerances, as stated by others in this thread.  I also think this is more about the cheap i2S converter than about the May.

 

I'd like to try a better USB to i2S converter to see if that's the issue, but frankly don't need to spend that kind of money for this source.

When I tried the pi2aes the locking time was only a couple seconds. Whereas something like optical from my pc takes a good 10 seconds sometimes. So it definitely seems to be source dependant. 

 

In terms of quality, with the may and pll on, I really struggle to tell the difference between i2s, usb, and even subpar spdif sources, all of them sound fantastic. 

 

With pll off, usb and i2s are neck and neck on the may, couldn't pick a clear winner but usb is my go to due to pll locking instantly once I turn it on. 

 

With other dacs the differences in sources are more noticeable, my pc optical for example sounds pretty garbage and both the pi2aes i2s and sms200 ultra USB sound fantastic. 

 

Tldr: may pll makes the source a bit of a non-issue. I'd say use a streamer for galvanic isolation regardless cause why not, but I just use usb because of the instant locking, and unlike on the spring 2 (where i2s vs usb is quite noticeable), the may just does brilliantly from any source you throw at it

[Blake]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Problem with all those I2S interfaces is that clocking is wrong way. From the I2S source, while it should be the opposite direction, from DAC towards the source...

 

 

That is what Denafrips do with the Terminator Plus and the Denafrips DDC's.  Unfortunately, the only DAC in the Denafrips lineup that can do this is the Terminator Plus.  

[Miska]

3 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

With pll off, usb and i2s are neck and neck on the may, couldn't pick a clear winner but usb is my go to due to pll locking instantly once I turn it on. 

 

There shouldn't be any PLL involved when using asynchronous USB....

 

[GoldenOne]

14 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

There shouldn't be any PLL involved when using asynchronous USB....

 

I don't believe there is no. Sorry, probably could have worded that post better. 

 

What I meant is that the pll puts basically any digital source on equal footing with the may. Be it an expensive streamer or basic optical from my pc. 

 

USB sounds the same regardless of if the pll is on or not. 

[Miska]

11 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I don't believe there is no. Sorry, probably could have worded that post better. 

 

What I meant is that the pll puts basically any digital source on equal footing with the may. Be it an expensive streamer or basic optical from my pc. 

 

USB sounds the same regardless of if the pll is on or not. 

 

USB doesn't need any PLL because the clocking is at DAC side. PLL is only needed when DAC needs to regenerate clocks from external source (S/PDIF, AES or optionally I2S). Which is not the case with USB where clock is solely at the DAC side...

 

There's not much point in DAC regenerating clock from it's own clock with PLL. It would only degrade performance.

 

[brightonjel]

Hi everyone - wonder if you can help?  I have just received my Holo May and have got everything up and running, but with one significant omission: I can't get PCM 1.5 Mhz to work (nor can I get above DSD256, but that's not my main concern).  I can get 705.6 kHz and 768 kHz running, but no higher.  I have tried from a Sonictransporter via ethernet to a uRrendu (1.5, running 2.8 build); I have tried with a direct USB cable from the May to the Sonictransporter; I have tried with HQPlayer Desktop running on my laptop (Mac, running Big Sur) and a straight USB connection to the DAC, all to no avail.  Music plays fine at lower rates in all cases, but not at 1.4/1.5 Mhz; nothing seems to make the source connections, however configured, to run at the highest rates.  (And yes, I tested source files in differing base rates - same result).  When directly connected to my Mac Pro laptop the Audi Midi panel reports the Holo May as offering all formats at 16 and 24 bits up to and including 768 kHz, but no more.  Similarly, when attached to the Sonictransport and looking at what the uRendu says (it has a DAC diagnostic app) it, too, reports 768k as the maximum.

 

What am I doing wrong or missing?

[Diavolo]

I'm on pc so I don't know if any of this is helpful. 

 

Have you made sure the Holo May KTE is in NOS mode and not OS or OS/DSD nor OS/PCM mode? 

 

Is your playback software taking 'Exclusive Control' of your DAC's USB driver preventing Hqplayer from actually applying your 1.4112mhz or 1.536mhz setting? (If you're using HQplayer by itself and no other audio software is on then this won't be your issue.)  (It may not even be a Mac audio issue, but it perplexed me when I used Roon (in ASIO EXCLUSIVE  MODE) while streaming to HQPLAYER software as an ASIO endpoint which was in fact problematic.

 

Are you able to successfully select 1.536mhz in HQPLAYER settings?

 

Regarding the other scenarios you mentioned it's likely you are being capped by the limitations of that hardware/software. I can only go to 768khz via USB with Roon's internal upscaling and there's definitely limitations over a network connection with DSD using Roon I believe capped at DSD256, and definitely DSD512 via USB.  

 

Lastly, this could possibly be a USB Port related issue. I was unable to use my JCAT Femto clock USB pcie card to achieve maximum throughput rates simply because the antiquated USB chip and driver were not able to support it whereas I had no issue using my Sigao custom media server albeit with very new Internal USB 2/3 ports on a very current motherboard.

 

By all means contact Tim at Kitsune as he solved the same issues you were having. 

 

Hope maybe some of this helps? 

[brightonjel]

Thanks for that - all good questions!  Yes, when running directly from the laptop, HQP has full access (the whole ASIO, exclusivity thing isn't an issue on Mac OS, at least as far as I am aware).  Hardware limitations might indeed be playing into the uRendu and directly from the Sonictransporter situations, which is why I tried using a laptop and removing all those constraints.  I do not know if the hardware on my MacBook is an issue or not .. it could be, given its vintage (late 2013) but maybe others have some insights?

 

I was able to select 1.536 MHz when directly attached to the laptop, but it never played.  I am also able to select 1536 as a maximum bit rate on the HQP embedded configuration page on the Sonictransporter, but it never pushes out anything except at the 705/768 rates.

 

(And yes, it's in NOS mode.)

[GoldenOne]

42 minutes ago, brightonjel said:

Hi everyone - wonder if you can help?  I have just received my Holo May and have got everything up and running, but with one significant omission: I can't get PCM 1.5 Mhz to work (nor can I get above DSD256, but that's not my main concern).  I can get 705.6 kHz and 768 kHz running, but no higher.  I have tried from a Sonictransporter via ethernet to a uRrendu (1.5, running 2.8 build); I have tried with a direct USB cable from the May to the Sonictransporter; I have tried with HQPlayer Desktop running on my laptop (Mac, running Big Sur) and a straight USB connection to the DAC, all to no avail.  Music plays fine at lower rates in all cases, but not at 1.4/1.5 Mhz; nothing seems to make the source connections, however configured, to run at the highest rates.  (And yes, I tested source files in differing base rates - same result).  When directly connected to my Mac Pro laptop the Audi Midi panel reports the Holo May as offering all formats at 16 and 24 bits up to and including 768 kHz, but no more.  Similarly, when attached to the Sonictransport and looking at what the uRendu says (it has a DAC diagnostic app) it, too, reports 768k as the maximum.

 

What am I doing wrong or missing?

Does the urendu actually support 1.536mhz?

 

Afaik the only one that can 'technically' do it (though I just get the 'hqplayer crackling' when I try) is the sms200 ultra afaik

[GoldenOne]

Just now, GoldenOne said:

Does the urendu actually support 1.536mhz?

 

Afaik the only one that can 'technically' do it (though I just get the 'hqplayer crackling' when I try) is the sms200 ultra afaik

Also, check which firmware version you're on. There are two interchangeable versions of the may firmware. One of which is max 768khz but works with the 'hifi' pcie USB cards.

 

Contact your dealer and ask for the firmware tool

[brightonjel]

Thanks - the May reports that it's running v 1.20.  Any idea which version that might be?  Given that none of the USB probes come back with anything above 768 kHz, you may be onto something. (As for the uRendu supporting it, I've seen a response saying "no reason not, but not tested", so ... that's a "maybe" I guess!)

 

[barrows]

15 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Does the urendu actually support 1.536mhz?

Theoretically, it "should" support this rate, but we actually do not know as no one at Sonore has ever had access to a DAC which supports this rate for testing.  There are very, very few DACs which support this rate.  As mentioned, there are also a lot of different firmwares for the Holo Audio USB input, so that is the first thing to investigate with Tim.  Note that Jussi has recommended testing first with MoBo USB outputs to confirm it works before trying other USB sources (like ultraRendu, or "high end" USB cards, etc).

I could test this rate here if Tim at Kitsune would be willing to send me a demo DAC for testing purposes.  I have access to HQPlayer oversampling to this rate.

[GoldenOne]

15 minutes ago, brightonjel said:

Thanks - the May reports that it's running v 1.20.  Any idea which version that might be?  Given that none of the USB probes come back with anything above 768 kHz, you may be onto something. (As for the uRendu supporting it, I've seen a response saying "no reason not, but not tested", so ... that's a "maybe" I guess!)

 

I'm not sure. Mine says "v1.10" when starting up, and when using dfu i'm on version 3014 (3012 is the 1.536mhz capable one, 3014 is 768khz). My May has the L2 upgraded USB, no idea if that changes anything. Probably wouldn't try to install the firmware below if you're on a L1 may.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11EwV9Lm07Os4mTVKXDHU7m9rsQQplU3i?usp=sharing

If anyone has received a more recent firmware update from their dealer please do share 

holo_gen2_3012_upgrade-20201231T222201Z-001.zip holo_gen2_3014_768k_upgrade-20201231T222148Z-001.zip

[brightonjel]

Yup, and I think the USB port I used out of my MacBook is directly off the main bus, but I'll try the other one next time I have a chance, just in case I can get a different result.

[brightonjel]

Thanks, GoldenOne, I'll ping them and see what gives.  (This is the KTE version so should have the upgraded USB hardware in place?)

[GoldenOne]

1 minute ago, brightonjel said:

Thanks, GoldenOne, I'll ping them and see what gives.  (This is the KTE version so should have the upgraded USB hardware in place?)

Yeah definitely should be the latest. If you wouldn't mind letting us know what driver version they give that'd be great

[GoldenOne]

14 minutes ago, brightonjel said:

Thanks, GoldenOne, I'll ping them and see what gives.  (This is the KTE version so should have the upgraded USB hardware in place?)

Also, download the 3012 upgrade file above and open the dfu file with the may connected. What does it say your firmware version is? 

 

[brightonjel]

Yes, for sure I'll report back when I hear something (and I'll hold off trying the 3012 file until then.)

[GoldenOne]

Just now, brightonjel said:

Yes, for sure I'll report back when I hear something (and I'll hold off trying the 3012 file until then.)

You can use the dfu file in there to check what firmware you have. It won't update unless you click update

[brightonjel]

Except I think that's a .exe file and I only have Mac access right now.

[Diavolo]

13 hours ago, brightonjel said:

Thanks - the May reports that it's running v 1.20.  Any idea which version that might be?  Given that none of the USB probes come back with anything above 768 kHz, you may be onto something. (As for the uRendu supporting it, I've seen a response saying "no reason not, but not tested", so ... that's a "maybe" I guess!)

 

When I checked the downloads on Kitsune website it states there's no firmware update needed for May dac and that the included versions in the driver/firmware download package is only for other models.  I don't recall doing anything with firmware on my unit to get PCM 1.536MHZ to function properly, but I did need to use a motherboard USB port in lieu of the USB port located on my JCAT Femto USB pcie card (As an aside, what a complete and utter waste of good money to the snake oil Gods. 😁 ) 

[StreamFidelity]

1 hour ago, Diavolo said:

I don't recall doing anything with firmware on my unit to get PCM 1.536MHZ to function properly, but I did need to use a motherboard USB port in lieu of the USB port located on my JCAT Femto USB pcie card

 

For me, the JCAT USB cards (Femto and XE) run without any problems in the highest resolutions (PCM 1.536 / DSD 1.024).

[Diavolo]

44 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

For me, the JCAT USB cards (Femto and XE) run without any problems in the highest resolutions (PCM 1.536 / DSD 1.024).

When I brought up the issue with PCM 1.536mhz playback not working with the JCAT, Tim at Kitsune told me the JCAT Femto card was also problematic at 1.536mhz for him and several other May owners and he advised to simply use the motherboard's native USB ports. In fact, Tim told me he even ordered the XE card to see if it would work with its newer chip since the Femto pcie uses a pretty old/cheap NEC chip I believe. I followed up a few weeks later, but he had been so busy he hadn't even tried the XE version.  For me the point is moot, it was a hasty and costly snake-oil purchase on my part, and turned out to be a complete waste of money as it did absolutely nothing as far as I could hear to improve the noise floor or sound quality.