HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Miska]

2 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Yeah I think it was more a case of the original USB implementation wasn't great, and so people used I2S.

 

So far nobody has shown objective evidence of such. I would be interested to see though.

 

[GoldenOne]

50 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Same as Spring 2, so if you use PCM mode, set DAC Bits 20 and use noise shaper like LNS15 at 1.5 MHz sampling rate. I personally stick to DSD256 output using ASDM7EC modulator.

 

What is the reasoning for those settings? (Other than the dac bits which I understand)
HQplayer is fantastic, and i'm curious to learn about why these settings benefit the spring.

I'd be using a network streamer that only supports 768khz. Would the desired settings other than sample rate differ in that case?
 

 

45 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

So far nobody has shown objective evidence of such. I would be interested to see though.

 

I've not seen any either, just that I'd seen a lot of subjective results that i2s was an improvement.
In any case the usb module has since been upgraded, and the May L2 and above uses a further improved version so I can't imagine there would be issues anymore.

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

What is the reasoning for those settings? (Other than the dac bits which I understand)
HQplayer is fantastic, and i'm curious to learn about why these settings benefit the spring.

I'd be using a network streamer that only supports 768khz. Would the desired settings other than sample rate differ in that case?
 

 

I've not seen any either, just that I'd seen a lot of subjective results that i2s was an improvement.
In any case the usb module has since been upgraded, and the May L2 and above uses a further improved version so I can't imagine there would be issues anymore.

 

It is due to realities of physical world, ladders have limited resolution, but can be helped enormously by suitable DSP to correct inaccuracies that are due to manufacturing tolerances and such.

 

13 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I'd be using a network streamer that only supports 768khz. Would the desired settings other than sample rate differ in that case?

 

Same settings are fine.

 

16 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I've not seen any either, just that I'd seen a lot of subjective results that i2s was an improvement.
In any case the usb module has since been upgraded, and the May L2 and above uses a further improved version so I can't imagine there would be issues anymore.

 

I2S is designed for connections between chips on the same board. But even there, the board layout design has massive impact on performance.

 

Between devices it has fundamental problem with clocking because in most implementations (since there is no standard), clock is going in wrong direction. So my default assumption is that it will make things worse. Since data itself is the same, only difference is in clocking.

 

[digitaldufferme]

On 5/30/2020 at 11:37 PM, barrows said:

I know some people like I2S, but it is somewhat flawed in a technical sense vs. USB.  The USB input on the May has been shown through jitter measurements to be very, very good.  I would expect best performance using the USB input via a very, very good Renderer.  Using a Renderer allows your (powerful one needed for HQP of course) computer to be located far from the audio system where things like electrical and RF interference and even fan noise will be of no concern.  I work with Sonore, so of course you know my preference for Renderers!  Regardless, you will want to use a Renderer which has the HQP NAA protocol available.

@barrows Putting aside your Sonore connection, what is the argument that a renderer with NAA needs to be "powerful" for HQP? What is the issue with a RPi4b running @Miska dedicated NAA software? Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and hoping this doesn't trigger a Pi fans' war. I'm genuinely curious as I have a Pi4B and my Holo Audio May L2 should arrive today. Cheers

 

[barrows]

7 hours ago, digitaldufferme said:

@barrows Putting aside your Sonore connection, what is the argument that a renderer with NAA needs to be "powerful" for HQP? What is the issue with a RPi4b running @Miska dedicated NAA software? Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and hoping this doesn't trigger a Pi fans' war. I'm genuinely curious as I have a Pi4B and my Holo Audio May L2 should arrive today. Cheers

 

Sorry friend, for any confusion caused by my post:  I was saying that a powerful computer is needed for running HQPlayer (especially with the fantastic sounding EC modulators), not that the Renderer needs to be powerful. 

 

Now, certainly there are better performing Renderers than OTS commercial computer gear like a RPi, but that is another topic and it would not be appropriate to talk about that further in this thread.

[digitaldufferme]

13 hours ago, barrows said:

Sorry friend, for any confusion caused by my post:  I was saying that a powerful computer is needed for running HQPlayer (especially with the fantastic sounding EC modulators), not that the Renderer needs to be powerful. 

 

Now, certainly there are better performing Renderers than OTS commercial computer gear like a RPi, but that is another topic and it would not be appropriate to talk about that further in this thread.

@barrows OK that makes perfect sense now. Appreciate your taking the time to reply.

 

[GoldenOne]

does anyone know if the RCA/XLR outputs of the may are independently buffered? I know a lot of dacs if you use XLR to one amp and RCA to another it essentially removes the Common mode noise rejection on the balanced connection ( https://forum.psaudio.com/t/using-both-the-xlr-and-rca-outputs-on-a-ds-sr/5208 )

 

Is this the case with the may? Or will plugging something into RCA not affect the XLR outputs?

[digitaldufferme]

7 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

does anyone know if the RCA/XLR outputs of the may are independently buffered? I know a lot of dacs if you use XLR to one amp and RCA to another it essentially removes the Common mode noise rejection on the balanced connection ( https://forum.psaudio.com/t/using-both-the-xlr-and-rca-outputs-on-a-ds-sr/5208 )

 

Is this the case with the may? Or will plugging something into RCA not affect the XLR outputs?

They are 2 completely separate paths. The XLR and RCA can be connected at the same time and the sound will not be degraded or affected at all and there is more than sample power supply as well. I checked with my main agent in Hong Kong for you.

[punit]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:25 PM, GoldenOne said:

I've now got a may on order and it should be here mid-june (went for the wildism L2).
Planning to connect it directly to the AHB2 and use Roon/HQPlayer volume control rather than a preamp given as I'll only need a few dB of volume control.

 

Hi. Have you received the Holo May ? Any initial feedback ? Have a Holo Spring, which I love  & itching to pull the trigger on the May.

[GoldenOne]

5 hours ago, punit said:

Hi. Have you received the Holo May ? Any initial feedback ? Have a Holo Spring, which I love  & itching to pull the trigger on the May.

I am absolutely blown away by it. It has far exceeded all my expectations. If you have the cash to do so, and you like the spring, do it ❤️
 

[fds]

Hi GoldenOne,

 

Are you still enjoying the May with volume controlled by HQPlayer? Would it be possible to hear your assessment w.r.t. your RME ADI-2 DAC? Do you have a favorite HQPlayer upsampling with these DACs? Would you mind sharing this maybe?

 

Many thanks, Frank

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldenOne]

6 hours ago, fds said:

Hi GoldenOne,

 

Are you still enjoying the May with volume controlled by HQPlayer? Would it be possible to hear your assessment w.r.t. your RME ADI-2 DAC? Do you have a favorite HQPlayer upsampling with these DACs? Would you mind sharing this maybe?

 

Many thanks, Frank

 

 

 

 

 

Heya!

I am still absolutely loooving the may. Very few pieces of audio equipment get me to tears on a fairly regular basis, especially so long after the "Honeymoon period", but the may does it.

I've actually upgraded the adi-2 to the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE now, as I am using the ADC, which is incredibly high performing, for a few videos I'm currently making.
The DAC in the ADI-2 (this is the updated 4493 chip version) is still great. And its a great dac packed with features, but A/B'ing it just cannot compare to the sheer realism and depth that the may presents.

I've got several dacs here currently. The May, ADI-2 Pro FS R, Teac UD501, SMSL SU-8 V2, Motu M2.
The may is a clear step above the rest, subjectively to my ears its just night and day. And interestingly in objective tests, while I don't have an analyser and am using the ADI-2 pro ADC (info on the performance of which can be seen here: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-adc.html ), the may actually outperforms even the ADI-2 plugged into ITSELF (meaning the adi-2 also has the advantage of the dac/adc clock being perfectly synced, and yet the may beats it).

For volume control I've actually switched to a goldpoint SA2X stepped attenuator now, which is absolutely brilliant (though unfortunately not exactly cheap). HQPlayer and Roon volume control are both great, but I find that on any dac, beyond -10dB or so, there is an ever so slight softening and reduction in dynamic range. The extent of this will obviously depend on the dac in question and its output stage, but even the ADI-2 has the same problem once you get into the DSP area. Within its ref level adjustment range though its not an issue.
The goldpoint though, is both subjectively, and objectively just as clean as it gets. So long as you aren't running long interconnects, it is arguably the best possible "uncoloured" volume control you can get.

With HQPlayer, on the may, I typically use PCM to 768khz, LNS15 dither/noise shaping, and my fav filters are:

Sinc-L
Sinc-M
poly-sinc-XTR-mp

I sliiightly prefer PCM on the may, but DSD is more just subtly different rather than better/worse so others may feel different. They are very similar tbh and so its mostly just not wanting to have my PC screaming whilst trying to upsample to DSD constantly.

On the ADI-2, if I were using it with a preamp or headphone amp with vol control, I'd go DSD poly-sinc-xtr-mp-2s as DSD on the ADI-2 sounds considerably better than PCM to my ears. BUT, you lose the ability to do DSP/Volume control with DSD-Direct, so you need to have external volume control.

Given as currently I have the ADI-2 Pro on monitor-duty, I am simply running it native, with Sonarworks room correction.

[fds]

Many thanks for your detailed reply, GoldenOne. This is very helpful information for me.

 

In fact I had used my current MetricHalo LIO-8 interface (with analog vol control) directly into MarkLevinson 434 monos for quite some time. Before that I had also tried a passive attenuator (but probably not at the level of your Goldpoint) with a borrowed Ayre QB9 DAC but that was not really convincing. At some point I got an Ayre KX-5 (non-20) preamp over the weekend for testing, which I could not return thereafter. And even recently, I had tried again to go back to DAC directly into power amp but I had to add back the Ayre pre rather quickly. Still I have to admit that the Ayre does add a little bit of color but in a pleasant way according to my ears.

 

For room correction I have just started to use Audiolense. Thus, I am somewhat in favor of multichannel dacs/interfaces. For example with your 4-channel ADI-2 Pro (if not using DSD direct mode unfortunately limited to stereo playback), you will be able to use two channels for the mains and two channels for subs whereas Audiolense can take care of the crossover between mains and subs. See the great article here by Mitch on how to use Audiolense for subwoofer integration.

 

In fact, I had the earlier version of the ADI-2 for testing in over a weekend. It was very, very good (also in comparison to a probably not well run-in Ayre QX-5/20) but not sooo much better than my Metric Halo LIO-8 even before upgrading the latter with the new 3D card. At that time I had blamed the stock power supply of ADI-2 which I still believe to be a very limiting factor. While I still use for now the stock SMPS also with the LIO-8, I use it with an amazing, game-changing Studio Connections Black Star Power Cord ... and of course I had not and in no way believed in the effect of power cords before.

 

Now the May DAC sounds very interesting ... also to explore HQPlayer which I plan to do next ... despite it being only a 2channel dac. Thanks again for your descriptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[luisma]

20 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

but I find that on any dac, beyond -10dB or so, there is an ever so slight softening and reduction in dynamic range

Very interesting comments and thank you for posting. So Roon / HQP volume control you set it at -10 fixed and and add the Goldpoint attenuator downstream after the May? after the attenuator do you go directly into a amp? or preamp + amp?

20 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

I sliiightly prefer PCM on the may, but DSD is more just subtly different rather than better/worse

I do prefer PCM with the Denafrips Terminator which is ladder design just like the May

20 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

just not wanting to have my PC screaming whilst trying to upsample to DSD constantly.

Lol I know the feeling

 

Thanks for posting

 

[luisma]

18 hours ago, fds said:

I have just started to use Audiolense

I am split between Audiolense and Acourate, Mitch dropped Acourate some time ago in favor of Audiolense however I am not familiar with the advantages as Acourate seems to be very good

 

[luisma]

18 hours ago, fds said:

also to explore HQPlayer which I plan to do next

Be aware that after trying HQP this there is no turning back :)

[GoldenOne]

13 minutes ago, luisma said:

Very interesting comments and thank you for posting. So Roon / HQP volume control you set it at -10 fixed and and add the Goldpoint attenuator downstream after the May? after the attenuator do you go directly into a amp? or preamp + amp?

No I don't apply any DSP volume control at all, I do everything with the goldpoint.
The goldpoint actually outperforms even many internal trim methods of dacs such as the dangerous convert 2 and the ADI-2 reference level adjustment.

Atomicbob has done some measurements here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/goldpoint-sa1x-and-sa2x-passive-attenuator-technical-measurements.7303/

To my own ears, the goldpoint is by far the best sounding option. Literally just volume, no alteration, colouration, or loss of DR at all.

And I did some basic measurements of my own here comparing roon, hqplayer, adi-2 dsp volume control with the adi-2 ref level adjustment and the goldpoint:

  

[fds]

@luismaI cannot comment on Acourate. No experience. Getting optimal results Audiolense however seems to be more difficult than I had expected. Still have to get rid of some preringing ... Will have to experiment further. Also room treatments seem to be necessary. Not enough time here ... Note that AL correction implies few dB smaller signal. Thus DACs with excellent signal-to-noise like the May will be beneficial. While I win in bass quality with AL filters on, it seems to me that I loose a bit of air even when doing just partial correction up to say 500 Hz.

 

@GoldenOne Impressive measurements of your Goldpoint. Very interesting.

[luisma]

31 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

No I don't apply any DSP volume control at all, I do everything with the goldpoint.

Thank you, so HQP set at fixed volume so it is Roon, do you still use -3db to avoid clipping?

[fds]

Hmm, I had just looked at the JAs Stereophile measurements of the May:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements

 

What surprised me to see was the somewhat early rolled-off top end in the frequency response in Fig.7 (and Figs.8&9 for DSD in particular). Compared to this, the Chord DAVE (at much higher price of course) shows a much better performance as can be seen in Fig.3 here:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor-measurements

 

Contrary to that the impulse response (Fig.1) of the May looks much better than the one of the DAVE (Fig.1).

 

... just wondering whether the May is in the same class as the DAVE for example. Stereophile lists both in their A+ category. Any listening experiences from comparisons between May and DAVE (or Mola-Mola Tambaqui or dcs Bartok etc.)? Does one hear the somewhat rolled-off top end?

 

 

[GoldenOne]

22 hours ago, luisma said:

Thank you, so HQP set at fixed volume so it is Roon, do you still use -3db to avoid clipping?

Yeah I keep HQP at -3dB

[GoldenOne]

20 minutes ago, fds said:

Hmm, I had just looked at the JAs Stereophile measurements of the May:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements

 

What surprised me to see was the somewhat early rolled-off top end in the frequency response in Fig.7 (and Figs.8&9 for DSD in particular). Compared to this, the Chord DAVE (at much higher price of course) shows a much better performance as can be seen in Fig.3 here:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor-measurements

 

Contrary to that the impulse response (Fig.1) of the May looks much better than the one of the DAVE (Fig.1).

 

... just wondering whether the May is in the same class as the DAVE for example. Stereophile lists both in their A+ category. Any listening experiences from comparisons between May and DAVE (or Mola-Mola Tambaqui or dcs Bartok etc.)? Does one hear the somewhat rolled-off top end?

 

 

The rolloff is due to the analog lowpass filter. It is a NOS dac and so that is required. A 0.75dB @ 20khz drop is basically nothing though, and in fact anyone over 25 probably wouldn't even be able to tell at all.

The DAVE is an oversampling, delta sigma dac (FPGA but still), not a NOS R2R dac, so they are completely different topologies.
The two people I know that have heard both have both said that the may makes the DAVE sound pretty much dull by comparison. One of them actually sold his DAVE to purchase a may

[fds]

Many thanks. Indeed the 0.75dB @ 20kHz drop is not so significant. Readjusting speaker position by a little can easily have a larger effect. Also correction via DSP tools such as Audiolense would probably be a possibility to compensate for the drop to some extend. Good to hear about the comparisons with DAVE in favor of the May. 

 

 

[mushi]

Hey guys, i've got problem with MAY... looks like i'm stuck... MAY jams while playing music. This happens when the audio signal is supplied via aes-ebu and coax connectors, it looks like this on the display: 96K / LOCKING / 96K / LOCKING / 96K / LOCKING .. music / silence / music / silence / music / silence .. If a track is three minutes long, 2:30s is the pause and 30s is the music that plays. This problem does not occur when i'm playing music via USB. To exclude the possibility of a fault on my part, i put the audio signal through the RME ADI-2 FS DAC (via aes-ebu and coax connectors) and the above problem did not occur: When i'm playing PC >usb> MAY there is no problem When i'm playing PC >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio > aes-ebu/coax> MAY jams all the time When i'm playing PC >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio > aes-ebu/coax> RME ADI-2 FS DAC there is no problem And now the best part: my source (PC) is not connected to the miniDSP SHD Studio, i'm connecting miniDSP with the aes-ebu/coax connector to MAY and MAY starts locking... The seller claims that it is miniDSP fault, that miniDSP generates a signal that causes HoloAudio locking: "...May is very precise with its locking mechanism. Some sources do not sent clock signals all the time (while music is paused e.g.) and you will see "Locking" on your display when there is no signal output from the source."   So my setup look like this: Roon >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio >aes-ebu> MAY >... I'm using miniDSP SHD Studio as a preamp, also i can set the gain on the output:   I tried different settings but it didn't change anything..

Please tell me what do you think because i have already gone stupid...

[GoldenOne]

34 minutes ago, mushi said:

Hey guys, i've got problem with MAY... looks like i'm stuck... MAY jams while playing music. This happens when the audio signal is supplied via aes-ebu and coax connectors, it looks like this on the display: 96K / LOCKING / 96K / LOCKING / 96K / LOCKING .. music / silence / music / silence / music / silence .. If a track is three minutes long, 2:30s is the pause and 30s is the music that plays. This problem does not occur when i'm playing music via USB. To exclude the possibility of a fault on my part, i put the audio signal through the RME ADI-2 FS DAC (via aes-ebu and coax connectors) and the above problem did not occur: When i'm playing PC >usb> MAY there is no problem When i'm playing PC >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio > aes-ebu/coax> MAY jams all the time When i'm playing PC >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio > aes-ebu/coax> RME ADI-2 FS DAC there is no problem And now the best part: my source (PC) is not connected to the miniDSP SHD Studio, i'm connecting miniDSP with the aes-ebu/coax connector to MAY and MAY starts locking... The seller claims that it is miniDSP fault, that miniDSP generates a signal that causes HoloAudio locking: "...May is very precise with its locking mechanism. Some sources do not sent clock signals all the time (while music is paused e.g.) and you will see "Locking" on your display when there is no signal output from the source."   So my setup look like this: Roon >usb> miniDSP SHD Studio >aes-ebu> MAY >... I'm using miniDSP SHD Studio as a preamp, also i can set the gain on the output:   I tried different settings but it didn't change anything..

Please tell me what do you think because i have already gone stupid...

Given as it doesn't have this issue over usb it would seem that it's an issue with the minidsp. Have you tried an optical connection from a PC, or AES from the adi-2 pro to check if either of those show the same issue?

 

Likely there is an issue with the clocking coming from the minidsp. 

 

You can probably get around it by disabling the PLL, but if its so bad that the pll is not able to lock then you're probably going to get awful jitter without it. If it is failing to lock that would mean that something is really quite wrong with the incoming signal.
Also, are you using a proper AES cable? NOT just a regular XLR cable?

(Same for coax. Coax and RCA cables are not actually the same)
 

The adi-2 steadyclock PLL is WAYYYY more forgiving but a lot less effective than the one in the may. 

 

If you want to turn off the pll, turn off the may, then hold the menu button and the power button. It will go to a setup menu. Turn off the pll, then restart. 

 

Though as mentioned this is definitely an indication that there is an issue with the minidsp or the cable being used. So I'd look at addressing that. 

 

Maybe switch to using roon volume control and don't use the minidsp. That way you can use USB instead. Plus roon has incredibly powerful and easier to Configure dsp options anyway