Ayre QB-9 Twenty upgrade

[Yoram Diamand]

I had my computer as a source combined with an iFi regenerator, but iFi made it worse, so I bought a SOtM sMS-200 Neo-SE USB Bridge, so the source signal would not be dirty to start with  and that was a very good move. I am saving for the SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo -SE.

[jdoleys]

@Yoram Diamand

I tested the SMS-200 and I didn't like it, in fact, it was below the optimized PC with AO 3.00, Windows server 2019 Core and Jplay. Other models SOtM SMS never heard.

[Yoram Diamand]

Mine is the new neo, and SE, Siver wire and hifi caps and SBooster power, I do not complain 

[nrenter]

Just received my QB-9/20 (board revision 3.1). Candidly, I was keeping my expectations low because the Topping D10 Balanced had been running nonstop since late December and sounded good (so I thought). I mean, bits are bits, right? Cheap DACs sound the same as expensive DACs, right?
 

By the 3rd track out of the box, I got it. I’ve grown weary of all the audiophile words, but suffice to say, I got it.  Now, let’s put some hours on this thing and hear what she can really do. I’m happy. 

[CG]

15 hours ago, nrenter said:

Just received my QB-9/20 (board revision 3.1). Candidly, I was keeping my expectations low because the Topping D10 Balanced had been running nonstop since late December and sounded good (so I thought). I mean, bits are bits, right? Cheap DACs sound the same as expensive DACs, right?
 

By the 3rd track out of the box, I got it. I’ve grown weary of all the audiophile words, but suffice to say, I got it.  Now, let’s put some hours on this thing and hear what she can really do. I’m happy. 

 

Although I had nothing to do with it, I'm sorry that this took so long.

 

I know it's heresy, but I completely agree with your assessment of the sound difference.  Maybe it's how you treat those bits that matters...

[nrenter]

For those using Roon w/ your Ayre QB-9/20, what’s your take on upsampling options? Do you use them? If so, what is your preferred configuration? I’m using a Mac Mini M1, so I have plenty of processing power. 
 

Just looking for proven configuration options to start my journey to see which, if any, I prefer. 

[barrows]

5 minutes ago, nrenter said:

For those using Roon w/ your Ayre QB-9/20, what’s your take on upsampling options? Do you use them? If so, what is your preferred configuration? I’m using a Mac Mini M1, so I have plenty of processing power. 
 

Just looking for proven configuration options to start my journey to see which, if any, I prefer. 

Two points to make here:

1.  The Ayre uses an ESS DAC chip.  Typically the ESS DACs sound better with DSD, so I would try DSD 256 and see what you think.

2.  But, the Ayre has its own oversampling internally, bypassing the first stage of oversampling in the ESS chip.  One of the things one pays for with are QB-9 is their proprietary oversampling filter.  So, if one is wanting to compare Ayre's oversampling, I would compare no external oversampling, to DSD 256 using Roon, and see what you think.  You may find that Ayre's custom oversampling filter is really good.

[nrenter]

Great insights. @barrows! Thanks!

 

Thus far, I've preferred no external oversampling, but I can't tell if no external oversampling is "better" or if the gain difference is causing a bias. Maybe there's a way to toggle a single switch, change the oversampling option, and maintain a consistent output level? If so, I'm not aware. Too many click and too much time makes the comparison too complicated. 

[taipan254]

5 hours ago, nrenter said:

Great insights. @barrows! Thanks!

 

Thus far, I've preferred no external oversampling, but I can't tell if no external oversampling is "better" or if the gain difference is causing a bias. Maybe there's a way to toggle a single switch, change the oversampling option, and maintain a consistent output level? If so, I'm not aware. Too many click and too much time makes the comparison too complicated. 

 

I don't own this DAC, but I do own another ESS DAC (Gustard X26 Pro). In my experience, I prefer PCM upsampling via HQPlayer and PGGB-RT (which is a free foobar2000 add-on for PCM PGGB upsampling) relative to HQPlayer DSD Upsampling. That being said, I run off a laptop, so I have been unable to run the "hardcore" DSD upsampling that HQP is capable of because I don't have the hardware for it. 

 

My 2 cents.

[#Yoda#]

37 minutes ago, taipan254 said:

 

I don't own this DAC, but I do own another ESS DAC (Gustard X26 Pro). In my experience, I prefer PCM upsampling via HQPlayer and PGGB-RT (which is a free foobar2000 add-on for PCM PGGB upsampling) relative to HQPlayer DSD Upsampling. That being said, I run off a laptop, so I have been unable to run the "hardcore" DSD upsampling that HQP is capable of because I don't have the hardware for it. 

 

My 2 cents.

You can't compare that so easily. Ayre DACs use only the rudimentary DAC functions of the ESS chip and bypass all of its filters and upsampling functions with custom FPGA-based programming and single-pass 16x oversampling.

In my listening experience with Ayre DACs, even DSD 128 recordings do not necessarily sound better than their PCM 24/192 counterparts. Even Charley Hansen, Ayre's founder was not really convinced of the sonic advantages of DSD.

[taipan254]

2 hours ago, #Yoda# said:

You can't compare that so easily. Ayre DACs use only the rudimentary DAC functions of the ESS chip and bypass all of its filters and upsampling functions with custom FPGA-based programming and single-pass 16x oversampling.

In my listening experience with Ayre DACs, even DSD 128 recordings do not necessarily sound better than their PCM 24/192 counterparts. Even Charley Hansen, Ayre's founder was not really convinced of the sonic advantages of DSD.

 

Understood and agreed. I made no assertation that external DSD sounded better than Ayre's internal filters. All I said is that that I have an ESS-based DAC that benefits from external PCM upsampling. You are correct to point out that I have not heard the Ayre internal filters, so I'm not making a comment on Ayre's filters. I am, however, offering advice on what my experience has shown to be the best external upsampling I've experienced thus far (addressing @nrenter's question and @barrows's recommendation to try DSD upsampling in Roon, which I don't think is that great). 

 

So, to be more direct: I would recommend trying out PGGB or HQP PCM upsampling, @nrenter. @austinpop may be best positioned to comment on the benefits of external upsampling on Ayre devices as he has reviewed numerous Ayre products and uses external upsampling (PGGB).

 

Also please see below on Ayre QX-5 Twenty from the PGGB webpage:

 

Quote

Here are a few DACs for which users of PGGB have reported significant improvement in sound quality. This list will grow as we hear more feedback.

• Chord DACs: DAVE, Hugo TT2, Qutest and Hugo2, Mojo, Mojo 2 (16fS*/32 bits or 24 bits using DBNC/SRC.DX )
• T+A DAC 200 T+A DAC 200 (16fS/32bits with NOS2 - no oversampling mode)
• Denafrips Terminator-Plus, Terminator (32fS/20bits**)
• Holo Audio May DAC (16fS/20bits** or 32fS/20bits** or 32fS/16bits***)
• MSB Select/Reference with Pro ISL (16fS/32 bits) and the Digital Director
• Vinnie Rossie L2 DAC in NOS mode (16fS/32 bits)
• iFi Pro iDSD (16fS/32 bits)
• dCS Vivaldi: On CDs remastered to DXD rates (8fS/24 bits)
• Gustard X26 Pro based on ESS 9038 Pro in NOS mode (16fS/32 bits)
• Ayre QX-5 Twenty USB2 Upgrade in NOS mode (16fS/32 bits)
• Topping D90, D50 (16fS/32 bits)

 

 

[austinpop]

Please see this link for my experiences with upsampling on the QX-5 Twenty.

 

 

[barrows]

14 hours ago, #Yoda# said:

You can't compare that so easily. Ayre DACs use only the rudimentary DAC functions of the ESS chip and bypass all of its filters and upsampling functions with custom FPGA-based programming and single-pass 16x oversampling.

In my listening experience with Ayre DACs, even DSD 128 recordings do not necessarily sound better than their PCM 24/192 counterparts. Even Charley Hansen, Ayre's founder was not really convinced of the sonic advantages of DSD.

The above is not entirely true.  While the Ayre DACs do implement their proprietary first stage of oversampling to 16x rate, and feed that to the ESS chip, the ESS chip still oversamples that again to a much higher rate (MHz levels) and around 6 bits before conversion, this is not just "rudimentary function", this second oversampling step includes both high rate oversampling and passing through the Sigma Delta Modulator (and being re-modulated) of the chip.

I am well aware of the Late Charles Hansen's disdain for DSD, Charley was a brilliant, and highly opinionated man!  His disdain for DSD was also based mainly on the high frequency noise associated with DSD 64.  Note he still chose a Delta Sigma DAC chip (ESS) which also includes a low bit conversion stage and a lot of high frequency noise (although at a higher frequency than that associated with DSD at only single rate).  I suppose (although this is speculation on my part), if Charley was here today, he would be willing to re-consider the value of DSD in light of 4x, or higher rates of DSD, due to the fact that the noise he found objectionable is now pushed so high in frequency as to not be so much of an issue (easier to filter out without damaging the audible range).

 

As to Roon oversampling to DSD, indeed, HQPlayer is better, but Roon's oversampling is no joke or afterthought or anything, it is actually pretty damn good, especially in comparison with the onboard oversampling of most DACs.  If one does not have HQPlayer, I would still advise comparing for themselves DSD 256 oversampling in Roon, for any DAC which has an ESS chip.  I have worked a lot with DACs with the ESS 9018 and 9038 pro, and both of these DACs respond really well to high rate DSD input.  Especially in a DAC like the Ayre where the ESS chip is synchronously clocked.

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

If one does not have HQPlayer, I would still advise comparing for themselves DSD 256 oversampling in Roon, for any DAC which has an ESS chip.

I would love to try DSD 256 or 512 oversampling, gladly with HQPlayer, but unfortunately I am eagerly awaiting the availability of the new USB and Ethernet boards for my EX-8.

[Yoram Diamand]

Hi,

You forum people use oversampling and upsampling as if they are synonymous. I know oversampling from NOS dacs Non oversampling dacs. And Upsampling from the Chord M-scaler and external upsampling software. I did not know you could have Roon upsampling. I have no Roon, because I thought you pay 10 euro each month for basically nothing. I always  thought: Upsampling is for other dacs than my QB-9 Twenty. I do not use a noisy computer anymore to feed the QB-9, I use a SOtM sMS-200 Neo- SE with silver wire, upgraded caps and a SBooster PSU. My hifi is growing into quite nice and I thought of upgrading my USB bridge towards a SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo-SE with silver wire, that one costs 1600 euro. Would anyone know a better alternative? If so please let me know😊. Thanks, Yoram

[krass]

3 hours ago, Yoram Diamand said:

Hi,

You forum people use oversampling and upsampling as if they are synonymous. I know oversampling from NOS dacs Non oversampling dacs. And Upsampling from the Chord M-scaler and external upsampling software. ……….

 

correct…. many do not understand the difference but it’s part and parcel of internet discussion forums. 

 

In some ways it is unsurprising as the majority will not have a requisite technical background, and digital signal processing is rather niche. Same can be said for digital filters.. how many will have even a basic understanding of that interlinked relationship between frequency- and time- domain ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

We should tag @Jake Forsyth the new CEO of Ayre, so he can pick up where @Ryan Berry left off in this thread. 

[Yoram Diamand]

An Ayre egghead, who knows everything, would be welcome indeed.

[CG]

On 5/27/2023 at 5:17 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

We should tag @Jake Forsyth the new CEO of Ayre, so he can pick up where @Ryan Berry left off in this thread. 

 

Except, he's not that.

 

What The Heck Is Happening At Ayre

 

Ariel is the man in the hot seat at the head of the table.  But, I'd bet that Jake could address these questions.

[scottsol]

On 5/27/2023 at 5:32 PM, Yoram Diamand said:

An Ayre egghead, who knows everything, would be welcome indeed.

The official term for Ayre employees is now Ayrehead. You can thank Jake (or excoriate him) for that.

[spin33]

I'm a satisfied QB-9 Twenty owner going on 3 years now, but looking for thoughts/suggestions/advice re an issue that's just developed. I set up a brand new Roon Nucleus Rev B for the first time the other day, migrating from a sonicTransporter i5 that I’d been using for the last few years. Installation and setup went well and all is running smoothly, except for the Nucleus's apparent inability to recognize the DAC's DSD capabilities.

 

Roon is not presenting the Native DSD option for me in setup, only 'DoP' or 'Convert to PCM'. When paired with the sonicTransporter, Roon recognized the QB-9/20's DSD capability and offered a selection for ‘native DSD’ in the setup. That's gone away now that I’ve migrated to the Nucleus. No other changes to the system or setup were made.

 

Any QB-9/20 users here who also connect to a Nucleus? I so, what's been your experience? I've put up a similar post and query on the appropriate Roon Community support forum and have had a couple of non-official responses, but so far no solutions. Perhaps someone here may be able to provide insight. Also...paging @Jake Forsyth  :-)

 

[barrows]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:07 PM, krass said:

 

correct…. many do not understand the difference but it’s part and parcel of internet discussion forums. 

 

In some ways it is unsurprising as the majority will not have a requisite technical background, and digital signal processing is rather niche. Same can be said for digital filters.. how many will have even a basic understanding of that interlinked relationship between frequency- and time- domain ?

There is really no difference, being said that this is all just semantics.  Indeed some people have made a distinction that one of those two words applies to asynchronous non-integer conversion, and the other applies to integer conversion, but there is no real world actual definition of such anywhere.  It is just semantics.  We should distinguish between these two forms of up conversion, but it is much more complex a topic than that.  There was a time, where synchronous integer conversion could be considered "superior" to asynchronous, non-inter conversion-but when we are talking about conversions done by powerful enough algorithms, running on powerful enough hardware, that time has passed.

Early examples of asynchronous conversions in hardware were the awful TI chip (was it the 1492?, I cannot remember), this chip made jitter go way down, but introduced all kinds of bad sound artifacts due to its imprecise math.  Nowadays, due to a huge increase in the processing power of many types of processors, we can have asynchronous oversampling which sounds fantastic, given we write the algorithms with precise enough math.  For example, the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC uses custom async conversion of all incoming rates, and it sounds fantastic, natural, dynamic, organic, detailed, just wonderful.  It also uses 3 high power AD SHARC chips to do so, and Bruno Putzeys is one of the genius designers who knows how to design both digital filters and SD modulators.  It can also be stated that HQPlayer, running on a powerful server, can do wonderful async, non-integer, resampling.

I used to avoid non-integer conversions at all costs, but I am now happy as pie to use HQPlayer to convert 48 kHz base rate files to DSD 512 to serve to the DAC with no worries at all, as the level of precision in Jussi's algos is up to the task, as long as the server processor is.

[Jake Forsyth]

Hey Everyone, 

 

Thanks for tagging me into this thread 😉. I will definitely do what I can to answer some of these as time and understanding permit. 

 

I am one of those heathens that significantly prefers physical music media. I.E.... "The less software, the better"!

So a lot of my answers may not come immediately and take a little bit of research and or conversing with Ariel on; especially with regards to DAC behavior with many of our available contemporary software platforms like ROON, Jriver, JPLAY, Foobar, Etc... 

 

Since this post is alive and active still, what may end up happening soon is a total write up for all things to consider when setting up the QB-9 Twenty for a MAC/Windows/Linux or Server/Streamer set up that gets pinned as a resource here. 

 

On 5/27/2023 at 3:17 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

We should tag @Jake Forsyth the new CEO of Ayre, so he can pick up where @Ryan Berry left off in this thread. 

Ariel is definitely the Ayrehead-In-Chief (his term!), I am the Lieutenant Ayrehead. 🤪

 

On 5/27/2023 at 4:32 PM, Yoram Diamand said:

An Ayre egghead, who knows everything, would be welcome indeed.

Really more "something about everything", but not all things. From browsing this post in its entirety, I think I could learn a thing or two from you!

 

On 5/29/2023 at 6:57 AM, CG said:

 

Except, he's not that.

 

What The Heck Is Happening At Ayre

 

Ariel is the man in the hot seat at the head of the table.  But, I'd bet that Jake could address these questions.

Thanks for following along! Learned a lot already just reading through every comment and doing some research. 

 

On 5/31/2023 at 3:22 PM, scottsol said:

The official term for Ayre employees is now Ayrehead. You can thank Jake (or excoriate him) for that.

Really the term was meant to be for you guys, our most loyal, uh... fans! But Ariel stole it. 😜

 

3 hours ago, spin33 said:

I'm a satisfied QB-9 Twenty owner going on 3 years now, but looking for thoughts/suggestions/advice re an issue that's just developed. I set up a brand new Roon Nucleus Rev B for the first time the other day, migrating from a sonicTransporter i5 that I’d been using for the last few years. Installation and setup went well and all is running smoothly, except for the Nucleus's apparent inability to recognize the DAC's DSD capabilities.

 

Roon is not presenting the Native DSD option for me in setup, only 'DoP' or 'Convert to PCM'. When paired with the sonicTransporter, Roon recognized the QB-9/20's DSD capability and offered a selection for ‘native DSD’ in the setup. That's gone away now that I’ve migrated to the Nucleus. No other changes to the system or setup were made.

 

Any QB-9/20 users here who also connect to a Nucleus? I so, what's been your experience? I've put up a similar post and query on the appropriate Roon Community support forum and have had a couple of non-official responses, but so far no solutions. Perhaps someone here may be able to provide insight. Also...paging @Jake Forsyth  :-)

 

Spin, glad to hear you are enjoying the QB-9 Twenty all these years! Thanks for poking around on the ROON forum too, that helped. Our guy that helped us with the Linux kernel for the QB-9 Twenty should have made the fix available to ROON a few years ago. It is possible ROON is not using this kernel.(?) I will bug Ariel about reaching our ROON contact tomorrow for a more definitive answer, but this definitely seems more like a ROON programming thing than something we could do on the QB-9 Twenty or in any settings for the Nucleus. 

 

On a side, but related note, we should be seeing new windows thesycon drivers for QB-9 Twenty tomorrow I hear.

[ssh]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

There is really no difference, being said that this is all just semantics.  Indeed some people have made a distinction that one of those two words applies to asynchronous non-integer conversion, and the other applies to integer conversion, but there is no real world actual definition of such anywhere.  It is just semantics.  We should distinguish between these two forms of up conversion, but it is much more complex a topic than that.  There was a time, where synchronous integer conversion could be considered "superior" to asynchronous, non-inter conversion-but when we are talking about conversions done by powerful enough algorithms, running on powerful enough hardware, that time has passed.

Early examples of asynchronous conversions in hardware were the awful TI chip (was it the 1492?, I cannot remember), this chip made jitter go way down, but introduced all kinds of bad sound artifacts due to its imprecise math.  Nowadays, due to a huge increase in the processing power of many types of processors, we can have asynchronous oversampling which sounds fantastic, given we write the algorithms with precise enough math.  For example, the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC uses custom async conversion of all incoming rates, and it sounds fantastic, natural, dynamic, organic, detailed, just wonderful.  It also uses 3 high power AD SHARC chips to do so, and Bruno Putzeys is one of the genius designers who knows how to design both digital filters and SD modulators.  It can also be stated that HQPlayer, running on a powerful server, can do wonderful async, non-integer, resampling.

I used to avoid non-integer conversions at all costs, but I am now happy as pie to use HQPlayer to convert 48 kHz base rate files to DSD 512 to serve to the DAC with no worries at all, as the level of precision in Jussi's algos is up to the task, as long as the server processor is.

Hi Barrows,

 

How does the Bricasti process DSD 512?

 

I thought that it was limited to DSD 256.

 

 

Joe

[barrows]

2 hours ago, ssh said:

Hi Barrows,

 

How does the Bricasti process DSD 512?

 

I thought that it was limited to DSD 256.

 

 

Joe

We are straying way off topic, sorry Ayre!  I will answer this one question and then we should go back to discussing the QB-9.

Currently my Bricasti DAC does not accept DSD 512 because of the limitation of its USB interface (I wish they would update this to allow for 512, as I suspect the discrete converter would have no problem with such, and the XMOS USB processor is certainly capable of 512 with the right programming).

In addition to the Bricasti I also have a very capable DIY DSC-2 DAC, which is DSD only input, with a discrete DSD converter, isolated USB interface, Lundahl transformers, and a stout active analog output stage for driving amplifiers directly.  So now that HQPlayer can get to DSD 512 with the EC modulators on my server, I play DSD 512 with this DAC.