Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

[The Computer Audiophile]

I'm not sure how this DAC escaped me, but I'm glad to read about it here. The craftsmanship looks amazing. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I certainly hear what people are saying about parts cost and final product cost but we’ve been down this path before many times. 

 

There are so many things that go into the price of a product that people conveniently leave out. These aren’t made by 10 year olds in a third world country. LessLoss builds these in a location that likely has some monthly fees to keep the roof over its head. It likely has a bunch of stock that it can’t sell in the event that there are failures down the road. The company likely participates in expensive trade shows. I could go on, but the cost of doing business is more than the sum of the products parts. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, esldude said:

I already said I didn't expect people to sale products for cost of parts.  For all the reasons you list. Yet there is some link to parts cost and final product cost.  All of those things are true of Soekris as well.  Yet I can purchase a finished product with the same board in it for a small fraction of the cost.  They've got a more expensive box, and some other parts, but it still kind of takes my breath away to see inside and think $20k?????  That is okay, but it sure would be nice if someone did a comparative review of the Soekris as offered and this expensive version.  

I certainly hear you. 

 

I like comparisons as well but I’m not sure the Soekris is the only selling point of this DAC. 

 

$20k ain’t cheap that’s for sure, but I’ve yet to see a product like this anywhere else. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

the cost of the parts was subtracted out in the post up above

 

the huge amount left over must represent R&D + pure profit

 

I expect per unit profits to be much higher on a product that sells to a small market

 

but...  how much is going to "excess profits"??

 

a comparison test with a $10k DAC or a $5k DAC is what's needed

$5k and $10k? Why not $5.00 and $10.00. I’m sure you can find one on Aliexpress made in a sweatshop. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

 

(My bold of the above posts)

Some here have questioned a $20k product, and this is the response?  So is it your intent to imply that something more affordable than $20k might have been made by children in third world countries?  Isn't that a bit over the top?

It’s way over the top. Just an illustration and a bit absurd. 

 

However, I used this to make a point. Labor costs a hugely variable. Working conditions are hugely variable. 

 

Also, I though the $10k and $5k numbers were quite arbitrary and if this DAC was that expensive, people would be asking for $1k and $500 comparisons.

 

Bonus, a cheap Aliexpress DAC may measure well 😁

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, esldude said:

Other than the unusual case material, and the price what is so unlike any other product?  

Wow, I look at this product as a whole, taking everything into consideration, and can’t think of another one like it. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

are we about to start the "tone wood" debate, Panzerholz vs Rosewood vs Ebony vs......?

No please. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, esldude said:

I'm honestly lost as to what you see that is different.  Can you elaborate? 

 

Sure digital goes in and analog comes out. But I believe this DAC is very unique. 

 

Think of all the things people may value when it comes to a product of any kind. I’m not saying I value all of these, just that this DAC has differences from others with respect to these as a whole. 

 

Craftsmanship

Materials

Component selection

Hand made 

Made in Europe

 

 

Plus, is there another DAC with these? Not saying I value all of them, but I know some are unique to this DAC. 

 

Echo's End Reference

Solid Panzerholz enclosure (it does the same thing for sensitive gear that it does for natural sound used for speakers).

Grounded custom hand made carbon fiber transformer shroud (really lowers the noise floor down to incredible stability at very high frequencies, important for Jitter reduction).

Cryogenically treated, solid copper, gold plated power inlet (Sound is smooth and dynamic as a result.)

Most precise resistors available (we only ever use the very best ones with the very best specs available).

Dual power supplies, dual Soekris boards, reprogrammed by LessLoss for dual mono configuration (this provides amazing stereo separation and a whole lot of nuance in terms of spacial presentation. Everything becomes more 3D and liquid. It is really nice when compared to a single board in normal stereo mode.)

XLR output derived from four mono channels of resistor ladders (output buffering schematics completely bypassed. This is possible because one board's Right channel converts the signal in phase and the Left channel converts the same digital signal out-of-phase. The phase reversal is done still in the digital realm, so the balanced signal is digitally perfect, without noise from an output buffer. This provides amazing clarity, transparency; a holographic sound and a super low noise floor.)

LessLoss special custom S/PDIF - I2S conversion schematic (developed and manufactured by LessLoss, it is much better than Soekris onboard solution).

LessLoss controlled automatic digital input selection (Soekris boards receive only I2S from LessLoss board)

LessLoss unique 3.3V generation for internal I2S (The USB 5V supply is discarded; and the 3.3V is made with our own power stabilizer and Firewall 64X technology. It is super smooth and stable. Makes you forget you are listening to a computer USB source!)

All floating bolts point-to-point star grounded (you can see this in the picture as silver looking wires coming from bolt to bolt throughout). This lowers the internal noise reflections and makes it dead silent inside.

New integrated Firewall 64X technology (6 units implemented here. This is brand new technology, the best we ever made.)

C-MARC™ internal hook-up wire (All power and analogue signal leads are C-MARC™. This takes a lot of labor to prepare but we feel the results are so organic and natural with great speed but never getting tiring to the ear. Well worth the extra effort.

DSD (2x) ready over USB.

Plays up to 192 kHz sampling rate PCM data.

Hand polished 100% natural beeswax impregnated (Looks very beautiful in real life, even smells really good, too, though never overpowering.)

Will have a precision engraved brass placard on the front of the unit, with model name engraved by laser on top.

Ships in a LessLoss branded water-tight flight case

[The Computer Audiophile]

@PeterSt you’re a competing manufacturer. Your posts here (this review) are a bit over the top. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

 

This statement confuses me, what are they trying to say?  I don't get why you need an acoustically dead material here.  Speakers makes sense but not a DAC.  Thick metal would shield better.

Just copied from the LL site. I’m sure they can better answer your question. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Louis - thanks for responding in this thread.  Ultimately, I'd like to see a DAC-off listening test -- you can take on Peter... or one of the others mentioned above.

 

I am also curious if you tried using Lignostone?

You said DAC-off right 😁

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Price, and looks, bear almost no relationship to the capability of audio, in the now - a favourite memory is hearing the most expensive, triple box dCS rig a decade and a half ago checking every box for why people hate digital sound - scrawny, scratchy, unpleasantness to the n'th degree - having heard the same following rig, just prior, achieve superb quality from a high end TT source rubbed salt into the wounds even deeper

You're the guy who judges sound quality based on YouTube videos right? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

The interesting thing is that many audiophiles need a rig to sound like a rig; they don't like it when the playback doesn't impart strong personality to what they hear ... the makeup is more important than the skin underneath ...

I believe this is false, but even if it were true, who cares?

[The Computer Audiophile]

50 minutes ago, Nsummy said:

 

That's like reviewing a server and failing to mention it has a xeon processor with an intel motherboard.  Do the components of this device not matter at all?  Or was this review supposed to just be about the box and user experience without delving into any technical data.  Also, why are you using pics from the manufacturer?  I would think a review would include photos of what it really looks like.

We get that you dislike this review quite a bit. To each their own.

 

Some readers couldn’t care less what’s in the box as long as they like the sound. Others like you have different interests. We can’t please everyone all the time. 

 

Using photos from a manufacturer is my choice because LessLoss already had great images. I don’t like reinventing the wheel. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

They've actually included titanium strips the last few years to make spectacular-looking sparks when there's contact between the telltale strip and the track.

I watched this series and couldn't figure out what was with all the sparks. Now I know. Thanks Jud.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I love the looks and the idea of Panzerholtz. If LessLoss has another reason for using it that would be even better.