New Mac Mini as music server?

[HendersonD]

I currently use a 2012 Mac Mini as a music server. The internal SSD holds the operating system and I have an external firewire drive that holds my music library. I have a Meridian Explorer DAC and use Audirvana for playback.

 

I am thinking about purchasing a new 3.6GHz quad core Mac Mini to act as a music server and jumping to Roon. I have a few questions

1. The Mac Mini comes with 8GB of RAM but can hold up to 64GB. Is 8GB enough or should I jump to 16GB? This will primarily be a music server but may be used at times for other light tasks.
2. The internal SSD starts at 128GB but can go 2TB. Should I put my music library on the internal hard drive or on an external drive? If external is fine then I should be able to get by with just the 128GB internal SSD
3. If I do go with an external drive to hold the music library, spinning disk? SSD? Or does it not make a difference?
4. If I do go with an external drive to hold the music library, bus powered or should I purchase a drive that has its own power supply? I have read that bus powered might compromise sound quality.
5. Lastly, I have read that replacing the switching power supply with a linear power supply can provide sonic improvements. Does anyone have experience with this?

 

[astrostar59]

Well, the Mac Mini is a so so music server unless you mod it. So I don't see any point in spending hard earned cash on a 'newer' unit. Unless you need more power for say DSD conversion, though I believe the OS is limited to 256 anyway.

 

A modded Mac Mini can be a good music server on a budget with good flexibility. That is why I still use mine, even though I am looking t whats next. You need to mod your Mac mini with

 

1. Uptone Audio 12v DC conversion

2. Power it with a nice LPS

3. Run Roon core for your music library and player. I is better sound quality than Audirvana+

4. Strip the OS back, defeat any non critical facilities such as wifi.

5. Use only one USB port for output

6. Use an external firewire drive for your music files (avoid USB bus)

7. Look at ethernet > USB conversion for more isolation from noise

[Thuaveta]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, HendersonD said:

I am thinking about purchasing a new 3.6GHz quad core Mac Mini to act as a music server and jumping to Roon.

 

For Roon-only use, that's massively overkill.

 

Do what RoonLabs does, and get a NUC, or a Nucleus if you aren't comfortable with opening a case up. RoonLabs' recommended higher-end configuration, which will give you the same horsepower as a Nucleus+, is $500-ish. Add $100 or so and a bit of time if you want a passive case.

 

If your server is isolated from your Roon endpoint, the PSU, in all likelihood, will not make a difference (and neither will anything else). I don't know how well the Meridian USB dacs are designed, but there's about a gazillion USB Roon endpoints at all price points that'll allow you to cleanly separate computer and playback, which is what music servers are about after all.

 

On 11/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, HendersonD said:

The Mac Mini comes with 8GB of RAM but can hold up to 64GB. Is 8GB enough or should I jump to 16GB? This will primarily be a music server but may be used at times for other light tasks.

 

That's a different premise than your opening paragraph. Which is it ? What's a "light task" ? If you didn't intend on selling it, would your current mini suffice for said "light tasks" ?

 

On 11/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, HendersonD said:

The internal SSD starts at 128GB but can go 2TB. Should I put my music library on the internal hard drive or on an external drive? If external is fine then I should be able to get by with just the 128GB internal SSD

 

If using ROCK, then it's one drive for library, one drive for music. And yeah, external is fine, you don't want to pay Apple SSD tax anyway.

 

On 11/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, HendersonD said:

• If I do go with an external drive to hold the music library, spinning disk? SSD? Or does it not make a difference?

 

If you count in the fact a SSD is perfectly silent, because no moving parts, then there's a difference.

 

On 11/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, HendersonD said:

 If I do go with an external drive to hold the music library, bus powered or should I purchase a drive that has its own power supply? I have read that bus powered might compromise sound quality.

 

One thing that *might* create an audible issue is a really crappy external supply feeding crap back into your mains.

 

Some people in the toy-buying hobby that is audiophilia believe that a room without strategically placed stones, or a CD without green marker, compromise sound quality. Some are quite shrill about it. Do according to your belief system, but also do understand there's quite a bit of engineering behind computer science, that music (even DSD) is light usage by contemporary standards, and that if data coming off a(n external) drive were affected by bus powering or not, you'd have much more serious issues to worry about than sound quality.

[isosound]

Thanks for your info.

I  also think to go for the new Mac Mini as audio server. However, some comments on compromised sound make me not sure.
But the next step in price for a real Audio PC is 3 times the price for a Mac Mini 16GB RAM, 256 GB SSD. Am I right ?

[astrostar59]

5 hours ago, isosound said:

Thanks for your info.

I  also think to go for the new Mac Mini as audio server. However, some comments on compromised sound make me not sure.
But the next step in price for a real Audio PC is 3 times the price for a Mac Mini 16GB RAM, 256 GB SSD. Am I right ?

You need to be aware the Mac Mini as base is no better than a PC base, but is still better than a Laptop with it's screen and compromised space.

 

To get the Mac Mini to be really special you have to buy and install the Uptone Audio MMK board kit, and then you can power the Mac Mini with an Linear Power supply.This takes it up to a completely different level I found. 

I also recommend to run Roon on it as well, it beats Audirvana+ V3 and Pure Music, Amarra and the others I have tried.

 

Store you music on an external firewire drive, and use USB output to your DAC, i.e. use USB for only the music output. 

[matthias]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

To get the Mac Mini to be really special you have to buy and install the Uptone Audio MMK board kit, and then you can power the Mac Mini with an Linear Power supply.This takes it up to a completely different level I found. 

I also recommend to run Roon on it as well, it beats Audirvana+ V3 and Pure Music, Amarra and the others I have tried.

 

Be aware that the Uptone kit does not work so far with the new Mini.

Some others have found that A+ is superior to Roon.

 

Matt

[wgscott]

The claim that you need to modify a mac mini in any way is simply false.  

 

No one has ever produced any measurements or even proper double-blind listening tests to establish the veracity of the claim that any of the various modifications make any improvements.

 

Giving a new person this kind of subjective opinion as if it were established and universally accepted fact is totally irresponsible.

[astrostar59]

5 minutes ago, wgscott said:

The claim that you need to modify a mac mini in any way is simply false.  

 

No one has ever produced any measurements or even proper double-blind listening tests to establish the veracity of the claim that any of the various modifications make any improvements.

 

Giving a new person this kind of subjective opinion as if it were established and universally accepted fact is totally irresponsible.

If you note, I said 'I found' and 'recommend' I can tell you from my own research on this over 2 years, and having had 2 mac minis with out without the mod, plus I installed the mod myself, that I stand by my 'opinion' But if you know better WITHOUT any such testing yourself....

 

It is all about noise, and any computer is stuffed full of it. SMPS are a disaster for audio, even inject nose back down the  line to other audio gear. My advice to you sir, is go buy a Mac Mini, apply the mods, then come back. Then you too will have some knowledge on this subject (on the Mac Mini). Check out the Uptone Audio thread on this forum, plenty of other folk agree with the mods having a big effect.

[wgscott]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:14 AM, astrostar59 said:

Well, the Mac Mini is a so so music server unless you mod it. So I don't see any point in spending hard earned cash on a 'newer' unit. Unless you need more power for say DSD conversion, though I believe the OS is limited to 256 anyway.

 

A modded Mac Mini can be a good music server on a budget with good flexibility. That is why I still use mine, even though I am looking t whats next. You need to mod your Mac mini with

 

 

@astrostar59

 

Funny, I don't see any of your disclaimers in any of these bold statements (pun intended).  The claim about SMPS being a disaster is also unestablished folklore.

 

You are right, however, that I did not know about your research.  Can you give us links to the journals in which it was published?

 

Spreading this kind of fake news as fact puts people off of the hobby, especially those who are new and possibly don't have unlimited incomes to squander on improvements from the land of make-believe.

[astrostar59]

4 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

@astrostar59

 

Funny, I don't see any of your disclaimers in any of these bold statements (pun intended).  The claim about SMPS being a disaster is also unestablished folklore.

 

You are right, however, that I did not know about your research.  Can you give us links to the journals in which it was published?

 

Spreading this kind of fake news as fact puts people off of the hobby, especially those who are new and possibly don't have unlimited incomes to squander on improvements from the land of make-believe.

I would counter that by saying SMPS are not bad for audio, re noise. I  think you need to do some more homework, and instead of looking for 'journals' use your ears. Ask others who have swapped them out for LPS or battery. Really this is dead basic stuff, I kind believe I am having to talk about it TBH. 

 

As for 'journals' we all know how they told us delta-sigma sounded better, because it shows in the measurements....

[wgscott]

2 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

I would counter that by saying SMPS are not bad for audio, re noise.

 

I agree with what you wrote here.  But I doubt that is what you meant to type.

 

As for the rest,

 

Your opinion ≠ fact

 

Repeating dogma and chastising others for being uninformed simply because we don't put on our MAGA hat and chant "lock her up" in blind obedience only establishes one thing.

 

 

[astrostar59]

The OP asked for advice I offered my advice, I am no way saying it is fact. BUT to my ears and my 2 year tests it worked well for me. I don't spend any money on audio unless I absolutely have to. I don't do anything to my system to make it worse. I do not regard 'journals' as helping me find better sound.

 

Back to my posts, I did in fact want to say SMPS is bad for audio, yet you claim it isn't????? Odd. Lets get back to sharing our opinions and experiences, that is what I am doing. I am not going all 'journal' or accusational. Too much of that in politics.

 

I would NEVER chastise anyone lookijg for advice. Believe me, I have been round the audio merry go round and have appreciated much of the advice I have got along the way. But I go back to my advice, the Mac Mini is basic without the mod, so don't buy it and leave it at that. Buy a music server instead. Or buy the Mac Mini, do the mods and enjoy...

[Tone Deaf]

From a functionality perspective, the new Mac Mini should be fine as a music server.  The sound quality as a music server will be unknown until someone actually acquires one and make comparisons to other alternatives.

 

Older Mac Minis IMO benefitted noticeably from the conversion to DC power, however looking at the iFixit teardown of the new Mac Mini (  https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Mac+mini+Late+2018+Teardown/115210 ), the current conversion kits may not be compatible with the new Mini.  This from an owner of 2010 and 2014 Mac Minis, both modded with the Uptone DC conversion kit.

 

The new Mac Mini would likely benefit similarly from the conversion to DC, however until someone actually performs a conversion on one, any SQ improvements from a DC conversion could be only conjecture.

 

 

[wgscott]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

The OP asked for advice I offered my advice, I am no way saying it is fact.

 

Good!  You are of course certainly entitled to your opinions, but it came off that these were undisputed facts universally agreed upon.

 

Quote

Back to my posts, I did in fact want to say SMPS is bad for audio, yet you claim it isn't?????

 

Exactly.

 

Again, your opinion is not the same thing as objective fact. Your incredulous reaction speaks volumes.

 

A poorly-performing LPS can in fact be worse than a SMPS.  (Please note that I am not suggesting Uptone's is an example of this.) Similarly, a decent SMPS can be perfectly fine (i.e., does not produce audible or measurable distortion in the audible frequencies.  I am suggesting that the Apple one is perfectly fine in this respect). I've never seen any objective evidence to the contrary, in the case of Apple's internal power supply (even in the case of one I had that was defective and had to be replaced).

 

What I am objecting to is the idea that someone (the OP, or anyone reading the thread) should feel compelled to make all of these changes in order to get decent sound, which is what you claimed very unambiguously, and without qualification, in your first response.  I recognize people have their own subjective opinions about that, which is fine. What worries me is that these become misrepresented as objective, universally-agreed-upon facts.  They are not.  If a SMPS made any detectable difference in my system, I would replace it. (I also recognize it is possible for someone else's DAC to be sensitive to SMPS noise that mine is immune to.  I do find it surprising that any competently-made audio electronics would be sensitive to this kind of noise, and haven't seen any evidence that they are, but it is a logical possibility.)

 

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[Indydan]

I find the new Mac Minis are too expensive for what they offer. I believe the Innuos Zen Mini provides better value for a similar price. 

[isosound]

Sirs, thanks for your suggestions and care.

I was traveling last night and was not able to follow up your discussion on this modification.

Hope you agree finally  Appreciate both of your willingness to help.

I was thinking on the Mac Mini just because it has no that many unnecessary components what a notebook has.

I visited the Up Tone Audio site and seems the mod is a Fan Controller. They claim to fit for the 2014 model but no reference for the 2018 one.

 

As far as the Innous ZEN I do not see a significant price difference to the Mac Mini...

[Indydan]

1 hour ago, isosound said:

Sirs, thanks for your suggestions and care.

I was traveling last night and was not able to follow up your discussion on this modification.

Hope you agree finally  Appreciate both of your willingness to help.

I was thinking on the Mac Mini just because it has no that many unnecessary components what a notebook has.

I visited the Up Tone Audio site and seems the mod is a Fan Controller. They claim to fit for the 2014 model but no reference for the 2018 one.

 

As far as the Innous ZEN I do not see a significant price difference to the Mac Mini...

 

That's the point. For about the same price, why not buy a dedicated music server with ripper, rather than a computer serving as a server?

[Ralf11]

because it's in Space Gray !!

[Tone Deaf]

1 hour ago, isosound said:

I visited the Up Tone Audio site and seems the mod is a Fan Controller. They claim to fit for the 2014 model but no reference for the 2018 one.

The mod is both a DC conversion and a fan controller.  The fan controller modification is optional, as the kit can be used for the DC power conversion only.  If the power connectors are unchanged from earlier versions, the power only conversion would possibly still be workable.  However with the new cooling design shown in the teardown, my guess is the fan controller mod might not be possible with the current conversion kit.

 

If you are interested in this conversion, I suggest that you contact Uptone, either via their website, or via their sponsored forum here, and get their opinion on the viability of their current conversion kit with the new Minis.    With the Mini being newly released, my guess is that Uptone hasn't taken a look at this yet.

[One and a half]

The older MacMini has too many components in close proximity, coupling noise to each other too easily. With the newer high powered designs, there's going to be more noise and why pay for noise?

Agree with @Indydan, there are better alternatives in dedicated servers these days. The only need for a computer is to download new music, correct metadata, organise file structures and to find new music that you like, not forced. For that purpose anything other than a new MacMini is fine.

[HendersonD]

I did purchase the new Mac Mini and may take a look at replacing the power supply once one becomes available for the new design. I agree that it would be nice to have some objective measurements of a Mac Mini before and after this modification to see how it affects sound quality. I have been following various sound and home theater forums for years along with many different print and digital publications. There are certainly objective measurements offered at times but often it is subjective descriptions that carry the day.

 

The new Mac Mini does not have firewire, Apple abandoned it years ago. The new Mac Mini has USB-C and USB-A connections.

[wgscott]

Arse Technical had a (weird) review:  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/11/mac-mini-review-a-testament-to-apples-stubbornness/

[astrostar59]

13 hours ago, HendersonD said:

I did purchase the new Mac Mini and may take a look at replacing the power supply once one becomes available for the new design. I agree that it would be nice to have some objective measurements of a Mac Mini before and after this modification to see how it affects sound quality. I have been following various sound and home theater forums for years along with many different print and digital publications. There are certainly objective measurements offered at times but often it is subjective descriptions that carry the day.

 

The new Mac Mini does not have firewire, Apple abandoned it years ago. The new Mac Mini has USB-C and USB-A connections.

There are tons of measurements and technical papers on how SMPS inject noise into audio. Have a dig around. It is not a new subject. SMPS are cheap, dead cheap to produce, and can handle different line input voltages so easier to stock US/Japan/EU models as one model. It is not designed in as a sonic benefit IMO. Any Music streamer worth it's salt will have a nice LPS supply or even battery to avoid such chaos. 

 

I went from a base Mac Mini to Uptone audio mod with LPS and the sound quality jump was huge, less hash and the treble got super smooth and analogue like. I don't need measurements to confirm what I can hear. Likewise when I upgraded my various USB chains over to LPS supply, especially the Rednet 3 ethernet to SPDIF, the same thing again. Added up all these things make a new source IMO, one that can compete with the mid Aurender units. I had 2 at home and the Mac Mini was on par in my system. I prefer Roon to the Aurender app hence why I still use the Mac Mini.

 

Have you emailed Uptone Audio to see if they do the mod? 

[astrostar59]

13 hours ago, wgscott said:

Arse Technical had a (weird) review:  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/11/mac-mini-review-a-testament-to-apples-stubbornness/

Agree odd review, and no mention of it's suitability to audio (high end) use. I spoke to Sonore and they told me the more powerful Intel chips produced later on (Mac and PC) can inject more noise by the very nature of how they work. Plus more heat of course. You don't need more chip speed unless you are converting PCM to 256 DSD for example. 

 

I need to decide what to do if my 2015 Mac Mini blow up. Probably get a dedicated one box music server that can run Roon. The Roon Nucleus+ looks interesting. If Roon advance that a bit more, maybe....

[Thuaveta]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

There are tons of measurements and technical papers on how SMPS inject noise into audio. Have a dig around. It is not a new subject. SMPS are cheap, dead cheap to produce, and can handle different line input voltages so easier to stock US/Japan/EU models as one model.

 

As @wgscott has said before me, you are wrong. You can believe what you want, of course, and spend money accordingly. But please be considerate of newbies, and recognise your very subjective opinion, by either not encouraging them down the path of voodoo at all, or at least having the kindness to qualify your statements. In this case, I think we could all agree that bad SMPS' are bad, much in the same way that bad linear supplies are bad. In my experience and opinion, neither are likely to affect a computer used purely as a server, or a competently designed USB dac attached to it.In other words: nothing justifies spending hundreds, let alone thousands, on a PSU for a computer used purely as a server.  If someone has measurements that prove the contrary, please do post them.