16 bit files almost unlistenable now...

[Richard Dale]

5 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

No matter how divide it, Most of humanity seems to accept the premise that race is a real, physical concept. Daily on the news you hear about "racial tensions" and the effect of race in America and how the "racial demographic" in Europe is changing due to the influx of black Africans and Middle Eastern peoples from Syria, Turkey and Iraq.   

No I don't accept that race is a real physical concept. The news stories you refer to are consequences of racism, they certainly don't prove the 'race is a real concept'.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

No matter how divide it, Most of humanity seems to accept the premise that race is a real, physical concept. Daily on the news you hear about "racial tensions" and the effect of race in America and how the "racial demographic" in Europe is changing due to the influx of black Africans and Middle Eastern peoples from Syria, Turkey and Iraq.   

In my experience, only Americans talk about race. I had a quick look at The Guardian and BBC News websites just now, and I can't find a single mention of race in the headlines. There is an article about an anti-racism event, but that's as close as it gets.

[Ralf11]

12 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

No matter how divide it, Most of humanity seems to accept the premise that race is a real, physical concept. Daily on the news you hear about "racial tensions" and the effect of race in America and how the "racial demographic" in Europe is changing due to the influx of black Africans and Middle Eastern peoples from Syria, Turkey and Iraq.   

 

That's true.  It is what the liberal arts profs. call "socially constructed."

 

But while race (subspecies) is a valid concept for animals and plants ("varieties") there is only a single race left in Homo sapiens.  The now extinct neanderthals were either a separate species or separate sub-species (besides gettin' it on with the Denisovians) and did get it on with modern humans (H. sapiens sapiens) hence the traces of their DNA in modern human popns.

 

But despite the "large numbers" and "many, many" who believe one thing or another, we don't do science by consensus.

[fas42]

22 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Just asking what designers should aim for in doing a better job of reproduction. Assuming perfection in all things is not attainable, which characteristics should be maximized to provide most people the ability to do things that seem relatively easy with live music, like distinguishing instruments from each other and placing them in space? 

 

A very good question. To show how the world of audio is almost completely topsy turvy in its thinking, nearly all the parameters that many people hold so dear, with plenty of examples of such mentioned in the last few posts, are almost irrelevant. In fact, it's the ability of the system to reproduce low level detail with the least levels of distortion of that information that really matters - contamination of that vital data by any type of distorting, interfering, correlated noise mechanisms does major damage to the listening experience. By contrast, errors at easily measurable levels appear to be able to be taken care of by the listening mind - hey, there's a correlation there! Maybe, just maybe, if it's easy to measure, then it's easy for one not to be disturbed by that anomaly - it's "so obviously wrong" that the ear/brain knows how to ignore it ... .

[gmgraves]

22 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

Are 'subjectivists' one of these so called sub-species then?

As are objectivists. I've always thought that this was a silly way to subdivide audiophiles. I don't think that I fall securely into either camp. I am an electronic engineer and I realize how important measurements can be. I know for instance that a lot of things that so-called subjectivists say that they hear is simply impossible, yet when I review something for the magazine, I rarely do any measurements, and my impressions of an audio component is fully based on what I hear and is described in those terms. When I buy a new piece of equipment, be it electronic (amps, DACs CD players, etc.) or electro-mechanical (speakers, phonograph cartridges, microphones) I go by how they sound. While with the latter group I might peruse the specs (to see what a cartridge might track at, for instance, or to determine whether its resonance point will be below 11 Hz so as to be compatible with my tone-arm or to avoid a rising top end.) still and all, I go by the sound of these devices as well. So what am I, a subjectivist or an objectivist? I find the two subdivisions of an audiophile to be largely irrelevant and mostly pejorative.

[gmgraves]

14 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

No I don't accept that race is a real physical concept. The news stories you refer to are consequences of racism, they certainly don't prove the 'race is a real concept'.

It's not a real biological concept, but it remains a social concept based largely on physical appearance and what the individual wants to think of themselves as being. For instance, I have an acquaintance who will tell you he's a negro even though he is as white as a Scandinavian and has no negro physiological features. When asked why he refers to himself that way, he says it's because his great grandfather was a black man.  It's quite true that governments and the media use it to gauge demographics among other things. Even my current driver's license has a category for race on it as did my former CA driver's license. Most government forms both state and federal ask for the race of the person filling out the form. I'm afraid that as s civilization we are some ways from eliminating the concept altogether, but someday, I suspect, it will cease to be an issue. 

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Most government forms both state and federal ask for the race of the person filling out the form.

You will not find that in Europe.

[fas42]

7 hours ago, mansr said:

If digital audio data is corrupted, there are pops, clicks, and loud bursts of random noise. There is never a subtle loss of treble or any other effect of that nature. The bits either get transferred correctly or not. Moreover, it is trivial to verify a copy as being accurate. Copy as many times as you like, there will be no degradation.

 

My NAD CDP is extremely poor at reading CDRs - they were known for this behaviour, way back when they were relatively new. Which means that the playing of some of my burnt music is a huge obstacle course - the amount of "digital snap, crackle, pop" at times is much worse than the worst dirt encrusted vinyl, yet it manfully struggles on.

 

But the music comes through! The digital circuitry is having a nightmare trying to do its job, but the analogue comes out with enough integrity to reveal the qualities of the recording - and is enjoyable. This is the opposite of course of the usual situation where the data is unblemished, yet the analogue doesn't tick the boxes - I have, LP in digital form, who would have thunk it ...

[Richard Dale]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

It's not a real biological concept, but it remains a social concept based largely on physical appearance and what the individual wants to think of themselves as being. For instance, I have an acquaintance who will tell you he's a negro even though he is as white as a Scandinavian and has no negro physiological features. When asked why he refers to himself that way, he says it's because his great grandfather was a black man.  It's quite true that governments and the media use it to gauge demographics among other things. Even my current driver's license has a category for race on it as did my former CA driver's license. Most government forms both state and federal ask for the race of the person filling out the form. I'm afraid that as s civilization we are some ways from eliminating the concept altogether, but someday, I suspect, it will cease to be an issue. 

Yes, I agree it is unfortunate that racist ideas are so deeply embedded in some people's personal views, particularly in the USA, and the way the driver's licenses in America appear to be categorised in terms of these discredited racist ideas.

[fas42]

I was reminded by recent postings of this album, from 1982. I don't have this, but heard it in LP version on that local friend's rig - and in this form showed remarkable levels of complexity in what the producer - quite a famous chap of the time, actually - did in playing with the sound. This is a perfect example of an album that could either, drive everyone from the room; or, leave one awestruck by the intricacy of the arrangements, be a great listening memory.

 

 

[fas42]

The current, racy postings provoke me to mention, firstly, that down here we have many headlines about various people from non-Anglo cultures "causing problems", which clashes with a proud proclamation that we are the "most successful multi-cultural society" - and also that we have a huge group of white Aborigines - those whose level of Aboriginal genetics guarantees that no-one would pick them as such in a line-up - who tend to be the biggest "troublemakers" ...

[gmgraves]

19 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

That's true.  It is what the liberal arts profs. call "socially constructed."

 

But while race (subspecies) is a valid concept for animals and plants ("varieties") there is only a single race left in Homo sapiens.  The now extinct neanderthals were either a separate species or separate sub-species (besides gettin' it on with the Denisovians) and did get it on with modern humans (H. sapiens sapiens) hence the traces of their DNA in modern human popns.

 

But despite the "large numbers" and "many, many" who believe one thing or another, we don't do science by consensus.

Well we know now that it is a social construct, but that knowledge is relatively recent. It will take some time to completely assimilate into the social zeitgeist.

You might be conflating race and species Ralf11.  Homo Sapiens is a species, not a race. We are in fact the only species left in our genus (hominids) but not in our family (primates). Even though we are often referred to as the "human race", it is, biologically a misnomer. It is now believed that European and Asian cro-magnon man assimilated the neanderthal, meaning that neanderthal was not a separate species as was once believed, but a subspecies according to the definition of a species, which is that when two members of the same species mate, they produce viable offspring. In other words the offspring can mate and produce offspring that can also reproduce. An example of near-species mating is the mule. The offspring of a donkey and a horse, mules are sterile. The two species are close enough genetically  to mate together and produce one generation of offspring, but that's a far as it goes. 

Race as a concept, on the other hand, has evolved. For millennia the concept of race was and is used to describe regional physiological differences between groups of humans. But until recently, it was believed that these physiological differences were believed to bespeak less superficial differences than than skin color, eye shape, nose shape, etc. We now know that this is biologically, the extent of those differences and they, themselves were the result of natural selection over many generations and nothing more. Perceived differences in intelligence or degree of civilization are wholly cultural. For thousands of years, Europeans considered negroes sub-human because they seemed to not be of sufficient intelligence to understand European concepts such as literacy, art, or technology. Some people, to this day, still feel this way. While some of it was an excuse for slavery, it was largely true that African negroes had sub-normal IQ's when compared to Europeans, and most Asians because they had a culture that did not require a lot of intellect to be successful. We know now that given an IQ test designed for people who are illiterate, negro tribesmen and women do show average IQs in the 60s and 70's compared to the average European. But here comes the big anthropological surprise. When these tribes people are given formal schooling, their IQ's quickly rise to that of the average European! Now some suspect that this is because the IQ tests designed for Illiterates is flawed, because the average IQ of the Chinese, for instance, is somewhat higher than that of the general European (that includes Americans of European descent BTW) population. It is obvious that this area requires a lot more study. But it's difficult when the prevailing social environment tends to regard any inquiry into socio-ethnic differences as racist and therefore politically incorrect (in my estimation a stupid and generally destructive social construct, seemingly designed to curb various freedoms). 

[gmgraves]

42 minutes ago, mansr said:

You will not find that in Europe.

Until fairly recently, the homogeneity of Europe made it unnecessary. 

[gmgraves]

38 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

Yes, I agree it is unfortunate that racist ideas are so deeply embedded in some people's personal views, particularly in the USA, and the way the driver's licenses in America appear to be categorised in terms of these discredited racist ideas.

I suspect it is done not for racist motives but to keep track of changing demographics and possibly to add one more layer of abstraction to the process of individual identification. 

[Ralf11]

george - see above for species v. sub-species

 

also Primates is not a Family but an Order - I stopped reading at that point

[fas42]

20 hours ago, buonassi said:

And if it were being played in a properly treated room, it would be even better, more immersive, more everything positive (unless of course you like the more lively sound of early reflections for example).  If you haven't heard the linear and balanced delivery of a well treated room, you're really missing out my man.  

 

Horses for courses. I'm sure if I listened to a live string quartet from 10 feet away that it would be "more impressive" if it was in a perfect room for such music making - but I'll take listening to that sort of experience any which way I can, . I may be strange in my tastes, but first I want any hint that the music I'm hearing is 'fake' removed from the equation - getting that alone is highly satisfying, but also extremely difficult; I'll concentrate on that side of things until I'm totally confident I've got it under control ...

 

Quote

Neither are any of the other tweaks we all make.  I think physics has proven the case for room treatments being more effective (affective? ?) than just a tweak, but not everyone can tolerate them aesthetically.  

 

Tweaks are necessary because systems don't just plug together, to function as well as they should - it's like getting a brand new car which is stinking with faults; the QC crowd went on holiday. We know that it's a lemon, and keep taking it back to the dealer until it's all sorted - in the audio game, this just doesn't happen.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Until fairly recently, the homogeneity of Europe made it unnecessary. 

 

Actually, last century, Europe had quite a spate of racist ideology.

[Sal1950]

3 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

Are 'subjectivists' one of these so called sub-species then?

You can't handle the truth.  LOL

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

The current, racy postings provoke me to mention, firstly, that down here we have many headlines about various people from non-Anglo cultures "causing problems", which clashes with a proud proclamation that we are the "most successful multi-cultural society" - and also that we have a huge group of white Aborigines - those whose level of Aboriginal genetics guarantees that no-one would pick them as such in a line-up - who tend to be the biggest "troublemakers" ...

There are examples like this in many societies, including the Aborigines, Maoris and American Indians.

The ones that Frank refers to, appear to mainly come from the " want something without working'" brigade.

However, we shouldn't have to keep paying for mistakes made by Authorities hundreds of years earlier ,forever. Some of the decisions made back then were intended to be in the best interests of the native population,

 but ended up causing divisions,  even though they were thought at  the time to be in the best interests of the native populations.

[marce]

8 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 There are a large number of CA members that will tell you otherwise when the data is A or V with highly accurate timing involved !

 But you don't appear to be interested, seeing that you can't  even be bothered replying to PMs offering you further information.

 

 

When I get some time I will read my PMs, busy finishing the house.

There are millions of files transferred every day that actually prove my point, the data is the same if the bit pattern of the file is the same... Transferring data is transferring data, we are pretty good at it these days, where is the extra data stored that makes the file sound different when there are no differences in the file?

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, marce said:

When I get some time I will read my PMs, busy finishing the house.

There are millions of files transferred every day that actually prove my point, the data is the same if the bit pattern of the file is the same... Transferring data is transferring data, we are pretty good at it these days, where is the extra data stored that makes the file sound different when there are no differences in the file?

 The usual same old argument 

I am not an E.E. and expect  that qualified people should find answers to these kinds of things after they have been verified by correctly performed DBTs or whatever .

 You can find the time to read posts and post replies taking potshots ar Subjective posts/reports in the  forum , yet can't find the time to read and reply to PMs ?   

Neither would checking the first part of info that I provide take more than 10 minutes of your time.

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, marce said:

When I get some time I will read my PMs, busy finishing the house.

There are millions of files transferred every day that actually prove my point, the data is the same if the bit pattern of the file is the same... Transferring data is transferring data, we are pretty good at it these days, where is the extra data stored that makes the file sound different when there are no differences in the file?

 

Now don't go getting all logical now. It doesn't matter that the only thing the computer is reading, moving somewhere, and writing is digital data. Somewhere hidden in those bits is some magical property that gets copied any time those bits get copied. It doesn't matter that bits are the smallest building block a computer works with and cannot be divided in any way. No, the world is wrong and these audio alchemists can hear things that cannot possibly exist.

 

Unlike the transporter on the Enterprise, computers don't move the original bits around. They read them and send a facsimile of the original bits to another system that then writes another facsimile to another location. Since all this copying is look ONLY at the bits, there is not way anything BUT the bits can get copied.

[numlog]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

There will not be any noticeable improvement normally, unless the USB memory is powered by a much cleaner +5V supply than available from the USB port 's +5V SMPS

 

 Incidentally, with the downloaded and saved track that you linked to, the surround effect extended  to  as far as past the back of both ears with a small gap behind my head when using my DIY DAC and !DIY Class A HA using AT W1000 headphones .

 This is possibly the most enveloping Holographic sound that I have heard from any other recording when using headphones.

what i mean to ask is if using a PCIe USB card with high precision clocks and  clean external supply like the regen, will the performance of the USB port be what determines the quality of a file copied to USB stick or will the source (SATA clock) also influence it?  does the regen serve a greater purpose than being an ideal USB port, like to also solve issues with the source with ''reclocking''?

 

that artist has a great appreciation for sound quality. it is impressive to think that these sounds are all electronic

 

 

 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, diecaster said:

Now don't go getting all logical now. It doesn't matter that the only thing the computer is reading, moving somewhere, and writing is digital data. Somewhere hidden in those bits is some magical property that gets copied any time those bits get copied.

And somehow it works on every computer and storage device, despite them being expressly designed to not behave this way.

[marce]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 The usual same old argument 

I am not an E.E. and expect  that qualified people should find answers to these kinds of things after they have been verified by correctly performed DBTs or whatever .

 You can find the time to read posts and post replies taking potshots ar Subjective posts/reports in the  forum , yet can't find the time to read and reply to PMs ?   

Neither would checking the first part of info that I provide take more than 10 minutes of your time.

How can we prove the impossible,  where could the extra information be stored, nowhere, its impossible, the data in bit identical files is IDENTICAL, anything else would turn the whole information technology world upside down, computers would not work, the whole internet would grind to a halt.

You are making the claim, explain then where the information resides that makes one file different from another.....