The Best for the Least

[beerandmusic]

55 minutes ago, semente said:

HQPlayer NAA

+1

I still have not tried NAA...i probably should as i like both enet and HQPlayer SQ.

[GUTB]

7 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

I have quit worrying about DSD.

I am content with PCM 24/192.

 

I am testing the Schiit Modi Multibit that Jason sent me...and although I have never heard a DSD, I have heard SACD, and I really would have a hard time spending $25/album to upgrade.

 

Subscription downloads are not an economical option either.

 

So, unless DSD really takes over recorded music, I am pleased with Schiit based on what I am hearing. This "Mimby" now has me thinking about getting the S/PDIF card for the RasPi and using the Multibit external DAC...a better use for $249 than 10 DSD albums, in my opinion.

 

It is getting harder to be 'on the Cheap.'

When you combine a Mimby with RasPi and Digi output card, you are starting to get close to the lower end of the Music Servers, cost wise.

 

So you’ve never heard high rate native DSD recordings through a real native -DSD DAC. To be honest, enjoying that grade of sound is pretty expensive so it’s probably a luxury that’s out of reach of audiophiles with very limited means.

 

Although DSD is better than PCM, it’s not all one-sided in the quality equation: PCM seems to have a euphonic sheen (ie, drive, energy, etc) that many find positive.

 

The problem with trying to achieve good sound with limited means you have to hunt for super high value equipment. The mass consumer gear out there — USB sticks, chip amps, the lowest end shovelware sound like garbage. In the era of ultra high-performance ICs you can get clarity and tone at a good level, but where fall short is dynamics, inner detail, and general euphonics.

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

So you’ve never heard high rate native DSD recordings through a real native -DSD DAC. To be honest, enjoying that grade of sound is pretty expensive so it’s probably a luxury that’s out of reach of audiophiles with very limited means.

 

 

 

That is exactly the case. Why I chose the "on the Cheap" end of the industry is out of necessity and my feeling that today most people are happy with the earbuds that hook into their phone...that is to say the bar is set pretty low.

 

I certainly don't begrudge anyone who can afford the more expensive equipment and DSDs at $25 each.

 

And although I can appreciate high-end systems when given the opportunity to listen to them, I am continuing to be amazed at the advances that have been made in improving entry-level components.

 

Right now, I am listening to the Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, and it sounds better than the iFi iOne, for what amounts to $50 more. But, if you have an iFi and you are happy with that sound (which I describe as sounding more 'technical' or colder) then I can be happy for you.  To my hearing, the Multibit sounds more analog, and warmer. But it is all subjective, and we listen to what we have.

 

I will not try to compare it to things that I cannot afford because that isn't the point. I would certainly think if I spent thousands more, it should sound like you paid more. No argument there.

 

The best improvement came when I was given a Denon AVR-2805 which has an AL24 processor which makes even low-res MP3s sound good on my system.

 

I fear that some Audiophiles take offense to think that a good sounding stereo can be pulled together from the entry-level equipment.

I recall the absolute amazement when I first heard a 24-bit recording with AQ Dragonfly. I think that is when my Stereo Bug really grabbed ahold of me. The progress up the ladder is in measured steps.

 

Sure, if I won the lottery, I would buy McIntosh, but until then, a used Denon will just  have to do.

[wwaldmanfan]

1 hour ago, bigbob said:

I fear that some Audiophiles take offense to think that a good sounding stereo can be pulled together from the entry-level equipment.

 

I know one or two here. One, at least.

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I know one or two here. One, at least.

 

You know, I have two 'real Audiophiles' one is a successful Medical Professional, who loves vinyl. His system includes a top-of-the-line turntable, a pair of BAT monoblocks and a pair of Von Schweikert floor-standing loudspeakers.

 

I can honestly say that it is the finest sounding analog system I have had the opportunity to hear. His listening room, at the time, was lined from floor to ceiling with his library of well-pressed records, and he was content.

 

My other Audiophile friend has over $300K invested in his system and is based on CDs, SACDs, and Hi-Res Audio files. It too is awesome.

 

I have second hand this and that that I have cobbled together with my limited resources a very good sounding 'entry-level' system, and I am content.

 

My lack of resources, coupled with my desire to have a system which sounds "almost as good" as my friends. And with some ingenuity, I have succeeded in pleasing my ears, and I don't want this to threaten anyone. If I had more money, I would spend more--but alas, that is not a probable outcome.

 

Years ago, while I was living my previous life, I had a high school basketball coach share some sage wisdom that has served me well for the past 40 years.

 

He said, "If you ain't happy, get happy because life is too short to be unhappy." That is the underlying motive for launching "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" as a magazine, and my marketplace. There is no system like mine, and I don't feel compelled to justify, are defend it to anyone. I am not an electrical engineer, computer guru, or disinterested listener. I just like a half-dozen albums and many Grateful Dead concerts, and I am content.

[Ralf11]

I'm curious what he has for a $300K system  

[GUTB]

53 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

You know, I have two 'real Audiophiles' one is a successful Medical Professional, who loves vinyl. His system includes a top-of-the-line turntable, a pair of BAT monoblocks and a pair of Von Schweikert floor-standing loudspeakers.

 

I can honestly say that it is the finest sounding analog system I have had the opportunity to hear. His listening room, at the time, was lined from floor to ceiling with his library of well-pressed records, and he was content.

 

My other Audiophile friend has over $300K invested in his system and is based on CDs, SACDs, and Hi-Res Audio files. It too is awesome.

 

I have second hand this and that that I have cobbled together with my limited resources a very good sounding 'entry-level' system, and I am content.

 

My lack of resources, coupled with my desire to have a system which sounds "almost as good" as my friends. And with some ingenuity, I have succeeded in pleasing my ears, and I don't want this to threaten anyone. If I had more money, I would spend more--but alas, that is not a probable outcome.

 

Years ago, while I was living my previous life, I had a high school basketball coach share some sage wisdom that has served me well for the past 40 years.

 

He said, "If you ain't happy, get happy because life is too short to be unhappy." That is the underlying motive for launching "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" as a magazine, and my marketplace. There is no system like mine, and I don't feel compelled to justify, are defend it to anyone. I am not an electrical engineer, computer guru, or disinterested listener. I just like a half-dozen albums and many Grateful Dead concerts, and I am content.

 

‘You didn’t put together a system that sounds "almost" as good. Let’s just be real for two seconds.

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

‘You didn’t put together a system that sounds "almost" as good. Let’s just be real for two seconds.

 

I forgot, when did you come over?

Have we even met?

You have no clue what my system sounds like...so get real for two more seconds and remind me why you think you know what I hear?

[GUTB]

Just now, bigbob said:

 

I forgot, when did you come over?

 

You’re saying that your old consumer grade receiver based system sounds almost as good as a $300k system and another high end analog setup. Assuming even basic competency in component matching and room configuration, that assertion just can’t be true.

[bigbob]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

You’re saying that your old consumer grade receiver based system sounds almost as good as a $300k system and another high end analog setup. Assuming even basic competency in component matching and room configuration, that assertion just can’t be true.

 

Too late in the evening to engage with you, remember it isn't fishing if the fish doesn't take the bait---it is just sitting in a boat looking at a line...

[bigbob]

22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I'm curious what he has for a $300K system  

I don't know everything about it, but I know it sounds good.

[firedog]

7 hours ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I know one or two here. One, at least.

It can if you compromise 2 points:

1. extremely low bass

2. loud volume playback with no loss of macrodynamics

 

Many people listen to little or no music that has #1;

Many people don't playback at high volumes.

 

But you can get very good sound, timbre etc with inexpensive components properly chosen. You will get bass rolloff with the speakers somewhere between 45-80hz. But very good sound quality is possible down to that point.

There are plenty of small monitors, open baffle speakers, and powered/active speakers on the market that give very good quality sound if you make the low bass/volume compromise.

 

Much of the big bucks in audiophilia are devoted to chasing after the uncompromised 2 points above.

[firedog]

16 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

Not a bias, I have a contact at iFi also and tested two of their entry level nano units. If I could get a loaner from other manufacturers, I would test them and return after. Full disclosure, I own Schiit Modi 2 and a AQ Dragonfly v1.2. I lean toward Schiit because I have found the music to be less 'technical' and more 'musical' which is say that it just sounds better. The DSD and Bluetooth of the iFi unit is not a deal maker for me.

In my CAOTC, I want to make recommendation based on best for the least. 

I really don't care if someone wants and can afford a DSD solution, and they want a portable headphone amp, then iFi is the way to go. I just don't think MQA or DSD is in my future because of my tight budget.

I wouldn't worry about it. The preference for DSD is one of taste and/or having components that sound better playing back DSD. If you like the sound of your PCM playback just stick with it. Even DSD resampled to PCM can sound perfectly fine if your system is optimized for PCM.

[beerandmusic]

43 minutes ago, firedog said:

You will get bass rolloff with the speakers somewhere between 45-80hz.

 

You can buy very good used subs very cheap?

[firedog]

41 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

You can buy very good used subs very cheap?

Sure. I was being very minimalist and cheap. Some people think $1000 is a lot to spend on audio.

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

Sure. I was being very minimalist and cheap. Some people think $1000 is a lot to spend on audio.

 

Even with $1K i would likely skimp elsewhere than give up bass...jmo

 

[Spacehound]

11 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

So you’ve never heard high rate native DSD recordings through a real native -DSD DAC. To be honest, enjoying that grade of sound is pretty expensive so it’s probably a luxury that’s out of reach of audiophiles with very limited means.

 

Although DSD is better than PCM, it’s not all one-sided in the quality equation: PCM seems to have a euphonic sheen (ie, drive, energy, etc) that many find positive.

 

The problem with trying to achieve good sound with limited means you have to hunt for super high value equipment. The mass consumer gear out there — USB sticks, chip amps, the lowest end shovelware sound like garbage. In the era of ultra high-performance ICs you can get clarity and tone at a good level, but where fall short is dynamics, inner detail, and general euphonics.

If you think there is an audible  difference between 'native' DSD and DSD over  DoP you are mistook.

The only difference is that DoP is an 'envelope around' DSD and that envelope is discarded before anything else happens.

 

"DSD is better than PCM"

PCM is perfect within any arbitrary limit you are free to choose, as is DSD (though DSD adds some inaudible noise,  removed  before playing).  Please explain how one is "better" than the other

 

Or do  you just make up this stuff?

[Spacehound]

5 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Double post

 

[STC]

20 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

If you think there is an audible  difference between 'native' DSD and DSD over  DoP you are mistook.

The only difference is that DoP is an 'envelope around' DSD and that envelope is discarded before anything else happens.

 

"DSD is better than PCM"

PCM is perfect within any arbitrary limit you are free to choose, as is DSD (though DSD adds some inaudible noise,  removed  before playing).  Please explain how one is "better" than the other

 

Or do  you just make up this stuff?

 

Generally, I believe under long term difference it is possible to perceive  the difference. Long term means listening to one album of DSD and another one in 16/44.1. 

 

Provided, the DAC, speakers and amplifiers capable of producing the full spectrum of the recorded high Rez. If I am not mistaken JRiver cuts at 22khz so I stopped experimenting with this. 

 

I am a firm believer of Oohashi’s research so I avoid anything that cannot exceed 48khz as hyper frequency from 16 to 32khz causes negative effect to the musical experience. 

 

Under blindtest, with level matches and instaneous it is difficult for me to tell the difference. Others I do not know. Bone that I know ever performed the feat. 

 

[Spacehound]

14 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Generally, I believe under long term difference it is possible to perceive  the difference. Long term means listening to one album of DSD and another one in 16/44.1. 

 

Provided, the DAC, speakers and amplifiers capable of producing the full spectrum of the recorded high Rez. If I am not mistaken JRiver cuts at 22khz so I stopped experimenting with this. 

 

I am a firm believer of Oohashi’s research so I avoid anything that cannot exceed 48khz as hyper frequency from 16 to 32khz causes negative effect to the musical experience. 

 

Under blindtest, with level matches and instaneous it is difficult for me to tell the difference. Others I do not know. Bone that I know ever performed the feat. 

 

Fair enough.

 

I have been trying to convince myself that a nine minute Mozart piece, which I am familiar with and like, is better in DSD (and which was recorded in DSD and what  I have is exactly that), is 'better' than the same label's conversion of it to PCM.

 

I am unable to do so. The PCM version is 192./24. They do 96/24 and 48/24 too. I can't hear any difference between  all four of them

 

And  of course you can't 'prefer' unless you can tell if there is any difference.

[STC]

I meant to say none Not bone. Iphone and auto correct is causing more problem for me.  

[semente]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

Sure. I was being very minimalist and cheap. Some people think $1000 is a lot to spend on audio.

I do.

[Spacehound]

3 hours ago, STC said:

 

Generally, I believe under long term difference it is possible to perceive  the difference. Long term means listening to one album of DSD and another one in 16/44.1. 

 

Provided, the DAC, speakers and amplifiers capable of producing the full spectrum of the recorded high Rez. If I am not mistaken JRiver cuts at 22khz so I stopped experimenting with this. 

 

I am a firm believer of Oohashi’s research so I avoid anything that cannot exceed 48khz as hyper frequency from 16 to 32khz causes negative effect to the musical experience. 

 

Under blindtest, with level matches and instaneous it is difficult for me to tell the difference. Others I do not know. Bone that I know ever performed the feat. 

 

DSD, even at its lowest rate,  is more 'resolving' than 44.1/16 so the comparison is invalid for DSD vs PCM testing.

 

I agree with your second point I don't know about JRiver (though I use it) but no   'Homo Sapiens' (us) human being has ever existed that can hear 22KHz. It's likely still true if you reduce that  to 20KHz,

 

I don't know Oohashi. But it s pointless going above 48KHz as we can't hear that or even close I don't see why 16KhZ-32KHz should degrade anything. Also many people can hear 16KHz.

Incidentally Naim used to deliberately limit their amplifiers to just above 20KHz. They sounded superb., but that was in the days of vinyl and FM radio.

 

Anyone who says  he/she can hear above 20KHz  has a too fertile imagination. See if  they can do 10 cartwheels up a flight of stairs too, it's a more 'objective' test of their imagination.

[GUTB]

4 hours ago, Spacehound said:

If you think there is an audible  difference between 'native' DSD and DSD over  DoP you are mistook.

The only difference is that DoP is an 'envelope around' DSD and that envelope is discarded before anything else happens.

 

"DSD is better than PCM"

PCM is perfect within any arbitrary limit you are free to choose, as is DSD (though DSD adds some inaudible noise,  removed  before playing).  Please explain how one is "better" than the other

 

Or do  you just make up this stuff?

 

Get out of this anti-MQA cult, it’s warping your mind.

 

Native DSD refers to DSD that hasn’t undergone decimation to PCM, either in the A/D or D/A process. There is no conversion happening in a DoP stream so that’s irrelevant. If you have the DAC that can do native DSD (Sabre, 449x, 7841, etc) and recordings made from analog straight into DSD (Channel Classics, Merging, etc) and you have the system of high enough quality to render the dynamic range of DSD, you will be able to enjoy native DSD.

[mansr]

11 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Anyone who says  he/she can hear above 20KHz  has a too fertile imagination.

There are apparently rare individuals whose hearing extends somewhat above 20 kHz even into early adulthood. Of course, they too suffer the same degradation with age as everybody else.