GUTB Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today? Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 minute ago, GUTB said: So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today? buy focal sopras Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, BobSherman said: Really? Yahama NS1000, Celestion SL600s, SL700s, Just three that IMO can preform with current speakers. There are many more. JBL https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jbl+restored or Fluffytime 1 Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 or how about this one.... BEST FROM USA IN JAPAN? MCINTOSH, JBL, SNAP ON, and HARLEY (grin) Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 4 hours ago, sandyk said: I would like to see Miska's take on this subject. The only things that matter are things humans can change. Otherwise we are stuck with stuff as it is. 200 dB? Pull the other one. You can't make Brownian motion that small unless your listening room is very very cold. By when your ears will have frozen solid and fallen off. (We put electronic stuff in a bucket of liquid helium to reduce it. and that bucket of liquid helium has to be inside a bucket of liquid nitrogen or it disappears very quickly.) Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 11 hours ago, mansr said: Sorry, you're going to have to do better than that. We are trapped in the 'memes' of the time we live it. Were we Victorians we would have done it all with cranks, brass gearwheels, levers, and steam. But as we are in today's meme we just reach for the computer, it's almost a 'reflex'. Computers do 'arithmetic' very fast. But maybe not fast enough. Trying to do everything with arithmetic is not necessarily the best way, as in using a machine that works at 2 GHz to type a short letter in English and 'post' it is basically nonsensical. So dCS's relatively simple method MIGHT be seen as a partial alternative. Link to comment
BobSherman Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Bang for the buck front end and DAC: Raspberry Pi - Allo DigiOne driving a Modi-Multibit. Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted February 8, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, GUTB said: I can’t say that I’ve actually listened to vintage speakers in a very long time. The general concensus (amongst audiophiles) is that they suck...right? Where does one go to listen to old speakers? The folks who hang out here must not be audiophiles because I've never seen anything resembling a consensus here... on any subject... ever... Mordikai, 4est, BobSherman and 1 other 3 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, BobSherman said: Bang for the buck front end and DAC: Raspberry Pi - Allo DigiOne driving a Modi-Multibit. allo usb for DSD BobSherman 1 Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, kumakuma said: The folks who hang out here must not be audiophiles because I've never seen anything resembling a consensus here... on any subject... ever... reminds me of my topic.... "is everything debatable" (lol) The thing is, everyone is correct, since everything is subjective.... or you could say everyone is wrong for that fact too (wink) I say hogwash to all of it...just get something that supports alexa since everyone is right or everyone is wrong however you want to look at it. Alexa, skip song... kumakuma 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Spacehound Posted February 8, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, kumakuma said: The folks who hang out here must not be audiophiles because I've never seen anything resembling a consensus here... on any subject... ever... People on forums, including ourselves, (if we are totally honest) aren't usually interested in other peoples opinions They are on forums to 'broadcast' their own Ajax, fas42 and opus101 3 Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Spacehound said: People on forums, including ourselves, (if we are totally honest) aren't usually interested in other peoples opinions They are on forums to 'broadcast' their own Actually, i would love to hear a concensus on DACs....I know mcintosh rules in amps and focals or ATC for speakers ("rules" in that i would toot my horn for), but I have yet to hear a DAC that really floated my boat that i would toot my horn for.....i have heard so many DAC flavors...except a Holo that superdad recommended, or the CHORDS that many people recommend (but they are so ugly). I might have to get a QUTEST though, just so i can say i tried one, and "still no hoopla", or maybe i will be impressed for once....i wish chord would make a streamer dac though, so i could compare usb to enet on one....so far enet and optical have always sounded better than usb to me, so i am reluctant to try yet another usb dac, unless through a sonore or sotm....right now my ND8006 sounds as good as any other enet/DAC i have tried...but I still wouldn't say it is a "step up" or a "step down"... Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, GUTB said: So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today? People have been talking about 'advances' for 10,000 years plus. And in less than 50 years time today's speakers will all "suck" (by your standards). So they are no big deal. Link to comment
STC Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, GUTB said: So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today? The loudspeaker technology is more or less remained the same. However, they have made progress in the material and design. IMO, newer speakers should sound better given that age will degrade the components but that doesn't mean they could not be restored to their former glory. Technically, modern speakers may measure better but it doesn't mean they will always outperform some good old speakers. Teresa 1 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, STC said: The loudspeaker technology is more or less remained the same. However, they have made progress in the material and design. IMO, newer speakers should sound better given that age will degrade the components but that doesn't mean they could not be restored to their former glory. Technically, modern speakers may measure better but it doesn't mean they will always outperform some good old speakers. I "think" beryllium (BE) makes a difference in speakers...that guy Kendricks restores many speakers with BE tweeters....and i know LOVE the Focal BE's. I also LOVE a LOT of the old vintage speakers...sometimes I am absolutely floored with many of the old speakers. Love many of the older B&W, JBL, Tannoys, ATC, Klipsch, DCM, even some of the POLKS!~ Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, beerandmusic said: Actually, i would love to hear a concensus on DACs....I know mcintosh rules in amps and focals or ATC for speakers ("rules" in that i would toot my horn for), but I have yet to hear a DAC that really floated my boat that i would toot my horn for.....i have heard so many DAC flavors...except a Holo that superdad recommended, or the CHORDS that many people recommend (but they are so ugly). I might have to get a QUTEST though, just so i can say i tried one, and "still no hoopla", or maybe i will be impressed for once....i wish chord would make a streamer dac though, so i could compare usb to enet on one....so far enet and optical have always sounded better than usb to me, so i am reluctant to try yet another usb dac, unless through a sonore or sotm....right now my ND8006 sounds as good as any other enet/DAC i have tried...but I still wouldn't say it is a "step up" or a "step down"... Just buy a Chord Mojo (500 dollars) or a dCS Rossini (20,000 dollars) and which is a network player as well as a 'regular' DAC with a USB, coax, and a few other ports . You will never bother with others DACs whichever one you buy. All DACs that use the ten dollar 'off the shelf' DAC chips (which is most) vary mainly in the fancyness of the case as technically every one of them is merely implementing somebody else's ideas as best they can. Chord and dCS go their own way and they are genuinely superior. And you will notice that superiority in less than a minute. a.diabelli 1 Link to comment
Shadders Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 5 hours ago, GUTB said: So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today? Hi, Depends on how old the current speakers are - they may have degraded slightly. Rubber will slowly lose its compliance - my speaker drivers currently - there is slight cracking in one of the rubber surround, but this could be the doping material cracking slightly. If the speaker drivers use ferrofluid - this has been known to degrade. Speaker drivers do change in design - different materials used for the cone material etc. If you are happy with the sound of your speakers - then why change ? If you just want to spend money, then yes, upgrade/change. Will you be disappointed if you don't spend the money ? Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
mansr Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Spacehound said: We are trapped in the 'memes' of the time we live it. Were we Victorians we would have done it all with cranks, brass gearwheels, levers, and steam. But as we are in today's meme we just reach for the computer, it's almost a 'reflex'. Computers do 'arithmetic' very fast. But maybe not fast enough. Trying to do everything with arithmetic is not necessarily the best way, as in using a machine that works at 2 GHz to type a short letter in English and 'post' it is basically nonsensical. So dCS's relatively simple method MIGHT be seen as a partial alternative. I'm not seeing your point. Here's what dCS say about their design: "dCS DACs oversample in several stages, eventually presenting the Ring DAC(TM) with 5-bit binary data at about 3MS/s. The Mapper decodes the data to a minimum of 32 digital signals, one corresponding to each binary state, then it scrambles the order of the signals. The Mapper randomises small matching errors in the Ring DAC core, converting what would be harmonic distortion to a small amount of extra noise." That's a description of a bog-standard sigma-delta DAC with dynamic element matching. You can buy them from ADI, AKM, Cirrus, ESS or TI for a few dollars apiece. Trying to pass it off as something novel they invented is dishonest regardless of how well built it is. esldude 1 Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Spacehound said: Just buy a Chord Mojo (500 dollars) or a dCS Rossini (20,000 dollars) and which is a network player as well as a 'regular' DAC with a USB, coax, and a few other ports . You will never bother with others DACs whichever one you buy. All DACs that use the ten dollar 'off the shelf' DAC chips (which is most) vary mainly in the fancyness of the case as technically every one of them is merely implementing somebody else's ideas as best they can. Chord and dCS go their own way and they are genuinely superior. And you will notice that superiority in less than a minute. could be right, that they have a "house sound". I asked an amplifier engineer what it is about mcintosh amps, why they sound so much better an different than most everything i have heard and they said that it is the way the transformers are wound to "make it sound" a certain way. I used to think that I wouldn't want a "house sound" or an enginneer's designed sound, but once I heard that, I didn't care since I know I like "mcintosh sound" whatever it is. So i guess in buying a chord, you really are buying their algorithm in what the designer wanted, and it may be the only thing that would separate it from the crowd. If i buy another dac, it will likely be a chord...at least to "give it a shot". Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, mansr said: I'm not seeing your point. Here's what dCS say about their design: "dCS DACs oversample in several stages, eventually presenting the Ring DAC(TM) with 5-bit binary data at about 3MS/s. The Mapper decodes the data to a minimum of 32 digital signals, one corresponding to each binary state, then it scrambles the order of the signals. The Mapper randomises small matching errors in the Ring DAC core, converting what would be harmonic distortion to a small amount of extra noise." That's a description of a bog-standard sigma-delta DAC with dynamic element matching. You can buy them from ADI, AKM, Cirrus, ESS or TI for a few dollars apiece. Trying to pass it off as something novel they invented is dishonest regardless of how well built it is. DCS is out of my budget anyway...what's your take on Chord? Link to comment
mansr Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: DCS is out of my budget anyway...what's your take on Chord? I've never seen or heard one, but their approach to digital filters is sane. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, mansr said: I've never seen or heard one, but their approach to digital filters is sane. Besides Schiit, it seems they have a good fan base, and I wasn't impressed with Schiit...although i heard one of schiits older companies (theta digital) that sounded amazing, but it was paired with Focal' speakers....i haven't heard anything paired with Focal sopras i didn't like (grin)... nonetheless....I think i will try a chord in my own system some day, just so i can put it to rest that dacs do or don't take you to a "next level"... Link to comment
semente Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 18 hours ago, beerandmusic said: imho anything that does not have DSD capability can't be included in a category "best for least" or "best anything"....jmo Have you been taking lessons from GUTB? "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, semente said: Have you been taking lessons from GUTB? GUTB is anti everything...i am just not a usb pcm fan...other than that, i like everything....even cheap stuff....I haven''t ever heard anything that sounds "bad"...even usb pcm sounds good....give me the "sweet spot" and good speakers, and I am happy (especially with native dsd and good music)....try that with GUTB. Teresa 1 Link to comment
semente Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 18 hours ago, beerandmusic said: Back to topic...let's not limit this just to DACS either. I would love to hear what others think are the best speakers less than $3K (new or used). I like PSB Imagine T2 (used $1800) B&W 705 (used $900) FOCAL BE (anything) ATC (anything) anyone proud of their speakers that think they meet the "best for least"? I replaced the T2s with a pair of Stirling LS3/6s, and I'd look at Kefs in same price range. "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
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