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So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

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1 minute ago, GUTB said:

So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

 

buy focal sopras

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4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I would like to see Miska's take on this subject.

The only things that matter are things  humans  can change. Otherwise we are stuck with stuff as it is.

 

200 dB? Pull the other one.

You can't  make Brownian motion that small  unless your listening room is very very cold. By when your ears will have frozen  solid and  fallen off.  (We put electronic stuff in a bucket of liquid helium to reduce it. and that bucket of liquid helium has to be  inside a bucket of liquid nitrogen or it disappears very quickly.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, mansr said:

Sorry, you're going to have to do better than that.

We are trapped in the 'memes' of the time we live it.

 

Were we Victorians we would have done it all with cranks, brass gearwheels, levers, and steam.

 

But as we are  in today's meme  we  just reach for the computer, it's almost a 'reflex'. Computers do 'arithmetic' very fast. But maybe not fast enough.

 

Trying to do everything with arithmetic is not necessarily the best way, as in using a machine that works at  2 GHz  to type a short letter in English and 'post' it is  basically nonsensical. 

 

So dCS's relatively simple method MIGHT be seen as a partial alternative.

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2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

The folks who hang out here must not be audiophiles because I've never seen anything resembling a consensus here... on any subject... ever... 

reminds me of my topic.... "is everything debatable" (lol)

 

The thing is, everyone is correct, since everything is subjective....

or you could say everyone is wrong for that fact too (wink)

 

I say hogwash to all of it...just get something that supports alexa since everyone is right or everyone is wrong however you want to look at it.

 

Alexa, skip song...

 

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6 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

People on forums, including ourselves, (if we are totally honest) aren't usually interested in other peoples opinions

 

They are on forums to 'broadcast'  their own :D

 

Actually, i would love to hear a concensus on DACs....I know mcintosh rules in amps and focals or ATC for speakers ("rules" in that i would toot my horn for), but I have yet to hear a DAC that really floated my boat that i would toot my horn for.....i have heard so many DAC flavors...except a Holo that superdad recommended, or the CHORDS that many people recommend (but they are so ugly).  I might have to get a QUTEST though, just so i can say i tried one, and "still no hoopla", or maybe i will be impressed for once....i wish chord would make a streamer dac though, so i could compare usb to enet on one....so far enet and optical have always sounded better than usb to me, so i am reluctant to try yet another usb dac, unless through a sonore or sotm....right now my ND8006 sounds as good as any other enet/DAC i have tried...but I still wouldn't say it is a "step up" or a "step down"...

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

People have been talking about 'advances' for 10,000 years plus.

 

And in less than 50 years time today's speakers will all "suck" (by your standards). So they are no big deal.

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

 

The loudspeaker technology is more or less remained the same. However, they have made progress in the material and design. IMO, newer speakers should sound better given that age will degrade the components but that doesn't mean they could not be restored to their former glory.

 

Technically, modern speakers may measure better but it doesn't mean they will always outperform some good old speakers.

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16 minutes ago, STC said:

 

The loudspeaker technology is more or less remained the same. However, they have made progress in the material and design. IMO, newer speakers should sound better given that age will degrade the components but that doesn't mean they could not be restored to their former glory.

 

Technically, modern speakers may measure better but it doesn't mean they will always outperform some good old speakers.

 

I "think" beryllium (BE) makes a difference in speakers...that guy Kendricks restores many speakers with BE tweeters....and i know LOVE the Focal BE's.  I also LOVE a LOT of the old vintage speakers...sometimes I am absolutely floored with many of the old speakers.  Love many of the older B&W, JBL, Tannoys, ATC, Klipsch, DCM, even some of the POLKS!~

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1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Actually, i would love to hear a concensus on DACs....I know mcintosh rules in amps and focals or ATC for speakers ("rules" in that i would toot my horn for), but I have yet to hear a DAC that really floated my boat that i would toot my horn for.....i have heard so many DAC flavors...except a Holo that superdad recommended, or the CHORDS that many people recommend (but they are so ugly).  I might have to get a QUTEST though, just so i can say i tried one, and "still no hoopla", or maybe i will be impressed for once....i wish chord would make a streamer dac though, so i could compare usb to enet on one....so far enet and optical have always sounded better than usb to me, so i am reluctant to try yet another usb dac, unless through a sonore or sotm....right now my ND8006 sounds as good as any other enet/DAC i have tried...but I still wouldn't say it is a "step up" or a "step down"...

Just buy a Chord Mojo (500 dollars) or a dCS Rossini (20,000 dollars) and which  is a network player as well as a 'regular' DAC with a USB, coax, and a few other ports . You will never bother with others DACs whichever one you buy.

 

All DACs that use the ten dollar  'off the shelf' DAC chips (which is most)  vary mainly in the fancyness of the case as technically every one of them is merely implementing somebody else's ideas as best they can.

 

Chord and dCS go their own way and they are genuinely superior. And you will notice that superiority in less than a minute.

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5 hours ago, GUTB said:

So has there NOT been large advancements in speakers over the last 50 years? Is this the contention? Everybody should know that I’m not out to defeat or ridicule anyone. I’m not out to trap  anyone. I’m neuro-typical, 100%. Is the contention that I should abandon plans to upgrade speakers in the $7-10k range and instead look into a set of vintage speakers that will equal anything I can buy today?

Hi,

Depends on how old the current speakers are - they may have degraded slightly. Rubber will slowly lose its compliance - my speaker drivers currently - there is slight cracking in one of the rubber surround, but this could be the doping material cracking slightly.

If the speaker drivers use ferrofluid - this has been known to degrade.

Speaker drivers do change in design - different materials used for the cone material etc.

If you are happy with the sound of your speakers - then why change ?

If you just want to spend money, then yes, upgrade/change.

Will you be disappointed if you don't spend the money ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

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5 hours ago, Spacehound said:

We are trapped in the 'memes' of the time we live it.

 

Were we Victorians we would have done it all with cranks, brass gearwheels, levers, and steam.

 

But as we are  in today's meme  we  just reach for the computer, it's almost a 'reflex'. Computers do 'arithmetic' very fast. But maybe not fast enough.

 

Trying to do everything with arithmetic is not necessarily the best way, as in using a machine that works at  2 GHz  to type a short letter in English and 'post' it is  basically nonsensical. 

 

So dCS's relatively simple method MIGHT be seen as a partial alternative.

I'm not seeing your point. Here's what dCS say about their design:

 

"dCS DACs oversample in several stages, eventually presenting the Ring DAC(TM) with 5-bit binary data at about 3MS/s. The Mapper decodes the data to a minimum of 32 digital signals, one corresponding to each binary state, then it scrambles the order of the signals. The Mapper randomises small matching errors in the Ring DAC core, converting what would be harmonic distortion to a small amount of extra noise."

 

That's a description of a bog-standard sigma-delta DAC with dynamic element matching. You can buy them from ADI, AKM, Cirrus, ESS or TI for a few dollars apiece. Trying to pass it off as something novel they invented is dishonest regardless of how well built it is.

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5 hours ago, Spacehound said:

Just buy a Chord Mojo (500 dollars) or a dCS Rossini (20,000 dollars) and which  is a network player as well as a 'regular' DAC with a USB, coax, and a few other ports . You will never bother with others DACs whichever one you buy.

 

All DACs that use the ten dollar  'off the shelf' DAC chips (which is most)  vary mainly in the fancyness of the case as technically every one of them is merely implementing somebody else's ideas as best they can.

 

Chord and dCS go their own way and they are genuinely superior. And you will notice that superiority in less than a minute.

could be right, that they have a "house sound".  I asked an amplifier engineer what it is about mcintosh amps, why they sound so much better an different than most everything i have heard and they said that it is the way the transformers are wound to "make it sound" a certain way.  I used to think that I wouldn't want a "house sound" or an enginneer's designed sound, but once I heard that, I didn't care since I know I like "mcintosh sound" whatever it is.  So i guess in buying a chord, you really are buying their algorithm in what the designer wanted, and it may be the only thing that would separate it from the crowd.  If i buy another dac, it will likely be a chord...at least to "give it a shot".

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

I'm not seeing your point. Here's what dCS say about their design:

 

"dCS DACs oversample in several stages, eventually presenting the Ring DAC(TM) with 5-bit binary data at about 3MS/s. The Mapper decodes the data to a minimum of 32 digital signals, one corresponding to each binary state, then it scrambles the order of the signals. The Mapper randomises small matching errors in the Ring DAC core, converting what would be harmonic distortion to a small amount of extra noise."

 

That's a description of a bog-standard sigma-delta DAC with dynamic element matching. You can buy them from ADI, AKM, Cirrus, ESS or TI for a few dollars apiece. Trying to pass it off as something novel they invented is dishonest regardless of how well built it is.

DCS is out of my budget anyway...what's your take on Chord?

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5 minutes ago, mansr said:

I've never seen or heard one, but their approach to digital filters is sane.

 

Besides Schiit, it seems they have a good fan base, and I wasn't impressed with Schiit...although i heard one of schiits older companies (theta digital) that sounded amazing, but it was paired with Focal' speakers....i haven't heard anything paired with Focal sopras i didn't like (grin)...

 

nonetheless....I think i will try a chord in my own system some day, just so i can put it to rest that dacs  do or don't take you to a "next level"...

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18 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

imho anything that does not have DSD capability can't be included in a category "best for least" or "best anything"....jmo

Have you been taking lessons from GUTB? B|

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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9 minutes ago, semente said:

Have you been taking lessons from GUTB? B|

GUTB is anti everything...i am just not a usb pcm fan...other than that, i like everything....even cheap stuff....I haven''t ever heard anything that sounds "bad"...even usb pcm sounds good....give me the "sweet spot" and good speakers, and I am happy (especially with native dsd and good music)....try that with GUTB.B|

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18 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

Back to topic...let's not limit this just to DACS either. 

I would love to hear what others think are the best speakers less than $3K (new or used).

 

I like PSB Imagine T2 (used $1800)

B&W 705 (used $900)

FOCAL BE (anything)

ATC (anything)

 

anyone proud of their speakers that think they meet the "best for least"?

 

 

I replaced the T2s with a pair of Stirling LS3/6s, and I'd look at Kefs in same price range.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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