The Best for the Least

[Spacehound]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

I'm not seeing your point. Here's what dCS say about their design:

 

"dCS DACs oversample in several stages, eventually presenting the Ring DAC(TM) with 5-bit binary data at about 3MS/s. The Mapper decodes the data to a minimum of 32 digital signals, one corresponding to each binary state, then it scrambles the order of the signals. The Mapper randomises small matching errors in the Ring DAC core, converting what would be harmonic distortion to a small amount of extra noise."

 

That's a description of a bog-standard sigma-delta DAC with dynamic element matching. You can buy them from ADI, fully AKM, Cirrus, ESS or TI for a few dollars apiece. Trying to pass it off as something novel they invented is dishonest regardless of how well built it is.

I take your point, and I've learnt something from your post.

 

But they have patented it, not that patents mean much. Something merely has to not be a perpetual motion machine and a few other silly things and supposedly  'original'  (though that is often not thoroughly checked, which from your comment  seems to have been the case in this instance) to be patented. It doesn't even have to work, let alone be 'better'.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

I take your point, and I've learnt something from your post.

 

But they have patented it, not that patents mean much. Something merely has to not be a perpetual motion machine and a few other silly things and supposedly  'original'  (though that is often not thoroughly checked, which from your comment  seems to have been the case in this instance) to be patented. It doesn't even have to work, let alone be 'better'.

British Rail once got issued a patent for a fusion powered flying saucer. That's how much patents mean.

[beerandmusic]

59 minutes ago, semente said:

I replaced the T2s with a pair of Stirling LS3/6s, and I'd look at Kefs in same price range.

I picked up a pair of LS3/5a for $25 at a garage sale....they sounded amazing for their size....unfortunately i sold them on ebay for $1100 within 24hrs of buying them...(that was several years back ago before I even got back into music)...I wish i held on to them longer...i bet those LS3/6s are superb.  Do you not run them with a sub?

[bigbob]

10 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Can speakers made without modern driver materials and without computer modeling and manufacturing tools really compete with today’s speakers?

 

I will give that one to you.

 

Yes, with computer modeling and rare earth elements, space-age composites like carbon fiber, well, for that matter expensive speaker wires--none of which were available to Henry Kloss in 1970-- I am sure newer designs may perform better on the test bench, or in a head-to-head DBT.

 

Without being confrontational, the OP -- "I would love to hear what others think are the best speakers less than $3K (new or used). "

 

And since my Advents are still sounding sweet, some 43 years after their purchase--I submit that they are well under $3k and a viable option for an Audiophile. (And a position buttressed by both J.Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson's reviews)

 

A cursory glance at the eBay listings for Vintage speakers reveals that they command twice their original selling price--AS 40-year old Designs.

 

  @GUTB you have what we termed 'a chilling effect' in journalism.

 

I would have mentioned my 6 1/2 inch DaytonAudio AIR  speakers which retail for $49, but that would have surely caused your Audiophilia Literati head to explode, and I am sure the other posters would not appreciate having the mop up that mess. That being said, for the boys in Ohio to license the ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer, and manufacture it into a pair of a quite listenable speaker using Chinese labor is rather remarkable.

[bigbob]

24 minutes ago, mansr said:

British Rail once got issued a patent for a fusion powered flying saucer. That's how much patents mean.

 

I am sure the boys in MI5 appreciated the stealth capabilities in the war on Terror.

And, although not germane to this forum--Google "Secret Space Program" and discover the use of German developed anti-gravity technology in the current top-secret 'flying saucers' we randomly see when their cloaking field is not operational...

[Spacehound]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Besides Schiit, it seems they have a good fan base, and I wasn't impressed with Schiit...although i heard one of schiits older companies (theta digital) that sounded amazing, but it was paired with Focal' speakers....i haven't heard anything paired with Focal sopras i didn't like (grin)...

 

nonetheless....I think i will try a chord in my own system some day, just so i can put it to rest that dacs  do or don't take you to a "next level"...

Regarding Chord I can only speak for the Mojo, which is excellent (I mostly use it in my car attached to an iPod running the  Onkyo HF Player app, which reduces the iPod to just a 'drive', does PCM up to 192 and converts DSD  to PCM (which is pointless with the Mojo as that does DSD fine  but it does no harm).

 

In a home system the Mojo is fine too. But it is not 'optimally convenient'  as it doesn't have an input switch. It 'prioritises' instead, so if you use coax you have to unplug the USB cable and if you use optical you have to unplug both the USB and the coax cables. As I only use USB it's fine for me.

Also in 'line' mode its internal battery only lasts about five hours but although Chord say it's fine it gets  hotter than I like if you use it and charge it at the same time.

 

But the Mojo sounds  vastly better than any other DAC I've heard except the Rossini, which I find indistinguishable from the Mojo.

Maybe I need a 'high end' cable 

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Regarding Chord I can only speak for the Mojo, which is excellent (I mostly use it in my car attached to an iPod running the  Onkyo HF Player app, which reduces the iPod to just a 'drive', does PCM up to 192 and converts DSD  to PCM (which is pointless with the Mojo as that does DSD fine  but it does no harm).

 

In a home system the Mojo is fine too. But it is not 'optimally convenient'  as it doesn't have an input switch. It 'prioritises' instead, so if you use coax you have to unplug the USB cable and if you use optical you have to unplug both the USB and the coax cables. As I only use USB it's fine for me.

Also in 'line' mode its internal battery only lasts about five hours but although Chord say it's fine it gets  hotter than I like if you use it and charge it at the same time.

 

But the Mojo sounds  vastly better than any other DAC I've heard except the Rossini, which I find indistinguishable from the Mojo.

Maybe I need a 'high end' cable 

 

I will assume the qutest has some of the same magic juice, and i will likely go for that model if/when...I don't want to deal with charging, as i would only use for home use.

[GUTB]

4 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Regarding Chord I can only speak for the Mojo, which is excellent (I mostly use it in my car attached to an iPod running the  Onkyo HF Player app, which reduces the iPod to just a 'drive', does PCM up to 192 and converts DSD  to PCM (which is pointless with the Mojo as that does DSD fine  but it does no harm).

 

In a home system the Mojo is fine too. But it is not 'optimally convenient'  as it doesn't have an input switch. It 'prioritises' instead, so if you use coax you have to unplug the USB cable and if you use optical you have to unplug both the USB and the coax cables. As I only use USB it's fine for me.

Also in 'line' mode its internal battery only lasts about five hours but although Chord say it's fine it gets  hotter than I like if you use it and charge it at the same time.

 

But the Mojo sounds  vastly better than any other DAC I've heard except the Rossini, which I find indistinguishable from the Mojo.

Maybe I need a 'high end' cable 

 

Fake news.

[bigbob]

10 hours ago, BobSherman said:

Bang for the buck front end and DAC: Raspberry Pi - Allo DigiOne driving

a Modi-Multibit.

 

You have hit the biggest nail right on the head, with such force as to seat its head on the surface of the board.

 

I could not agree with you more and were are in the process of testing that very set-up (albeit with a RasPi outputting to the Multibit via USB-- although I am considering the SPDIF digital connection in our second round of testing)

 

@BobSherman, I would appreciate your further input with regards to digital coaxial vs. USB, as I am not that familiar with the differences--and what impact that would have.

 

It is my opinion that USB connections are more accessible to more devices in the entry-level. But, for the Audiophile listener, it may well be a better arrangement.

[bigbob]

18 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Fake news.

 

That seems to be the best response to anything, which is proven to be a fact.

At least in the political world...but we know Audiophilia knows no party label.

[GUTB]

2 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

That seems to be the best response to anything, which is proven to be a fact.

At least in the political world...but we know Audiophilia knows no party label.

 

Another alternative fact are plastic driver lightweight speakers costing $50 sounding good.

[Spacehound]

14 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I will assume the qutest has some of the same magic juice, and i will likely go for that model if/when...I don't want to deal with charging, as i would only use for home use.

If I was buying a 'home' DAC today the Qutest is what I would buy. It's only disadvantage is that it changes the color of a light to indicate the sample rate so you have to learn the color code, assuming you worry about such things.

 

Charging  is a   pain but  the Mojo is mostly intended for mobile use and phones/pads won't give out enough current to drive 'difficult' headphones so it has to come from the DAC. Also if charged/used at the same time, which I have  done,  I doubt the battery  will survive long as   lithium batteries don't like getting hot. I haven't taken the back off to see if it is user replaceable but it's not intended to be. The Qutest doesn't have a battery,  as you say.

[bigbob]

7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Another alternative fact are plastic driver lightweight speakers costing $50 sounding good.

 

"Yessir, but since you live in an alternative World, it is OK..."- Kellyanne Conway

[beerandmusic]

21 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

You have hit the biggest nail right on the head, with such force as to seat its head on the surface of the board.

 

I could not agree with you more and were are in the process of testing that very set-up (albeit with a RasPi outputting to the Multibit via USB-- although I am considering the SPDIF digital connection in our second round of testing)

 

@BobSherman, I would appreciate your further input with regards to digital coaxial vs. USB, as I am not that familiar with the differences--and what impact that would have.

 

It is my opinion that USB connections are more accessible to more devices in the entry-level. But, for the Audiophile listener, it may well be a better arrangement.

imho optical is better than usb, but optical doesn't support highres dsd files...so that should be your decision...if you don't care about dsd (and seeing you like schiit) i would suggest optical....but if you want the best, go to highres native dsd....

[Spacehound]

31 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Fake news.

Both are  on the  shelf only six feet away from me. Have you heard either?

 

And as I said, 'chip' DACs merely implement somebody else's  'cheap as possible' ideas   (they are made for TVs and portable digital radios) as best they can. And as for the parts the DAC manufacturers   add  there  is nothing difficult or expensive  about making a reasonably low noise power supply and   a low power amplifier for the DAC output.

 

Not that it is actually worth discussing, everything except what you own "sucks".

[botrytis]

I have an iFi Nano and had an SMSL-M8 DAC (the PS went and destroyed the DAC). Both sound nice for the price but wanted to see what a little more would get me. I finally went and bought a NOS TEAC UD-501 for 1/2 price of what they were new. This DAC does everything I want and more and sounds stellar to boot. All 3 DAC's did DSD.

 

The rest of my system is interesting to say the least:

Pre-amp: Audio Research SP-16 

Amp: I switch between rebuilt Kenwood L-07M monoblocks or a Pioneer M-22 Class A amp (in the shop for a revamp)

Speakers: ELAC Uni-Fi UB 5's on 28" Sanus stands filled with 20 lbs of sand.

Wires: Blue Jean Cabling

 

The big thing is my room is treated and sounds pretty decent (Room is 10' x 38') - narrow and long - using one of the 10' walls for the speaker setup.

 

People do not have to spend tons of money to get great sound.

[bigbob]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

imho optical is better than usb, but optical doesn't support highres dsd files...so that should be your decision...if you don't care abut dsd (and seeing you like schiit) i would suggest optical....but if you want the best, go to highres native dsd....

 

I do favor Schiit, and you are correct-- the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap-- is priced out of the DSD-streaming subscription market.

 

Almost my entire library is 24/192, 24/96 FLAC and MP3@320 files. My target demographic would look at me with a blank stare if I started talking about DSD256.

 

Which is to say, as a practical concern, my class of listeners found Hi-Res Audio, stored on a 1Tb external drive--a Great Leap Forward, compared to their 16/44 Redbook CD collection.

 

I am not going to say that in the years to come,  DSD streaming is not the next big thing, or am I going to jump into the MQA realm just now.

 

If that is where we are headed, then we will jump onboard that Train when the offerings include familiar recordings, not some obscure vocalist that has never been close to a Billboard Top-100 chart.

 

What I have found available in DSD is nothing I am interested in listening to, nor willing to invest in hardware to decode. (And if I am wrong, please tell me where Simon and Garfunkel, or Thomas Dolby is offered in DSD.)

 

I am a very Grateful Dead-head. The vast library of 24-bit soundboard recordings will probably never be part of a DSD streaming service. To each their own.

 

One article I read about Schiit said they were targeting folks who wanted to make the Stereo they had, sound its best.

 

Computer Audiophile on the Cheap makes decisions based on "Perceived quality vs. Investment" in all choices.

[bigbob]

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I have an iFi and had an SMSL-M8 DAC (the PS went and destroyed the DAC). Both sound nice for the price but wanted to see what a little more would get me. I finally went and bought a NOS TEAC UD-501 for 1/2 price of what they were new. This DAC does everything I want and more and sounds stellar to boot. 

---clip

 

People do not have to spend tons of money to get great sound.

 

 

A quick Google found this:  "TEAC's new UD-501 is the star of the 501 series. The UD-501 supports Direct Stream Digital (DSD) playback at either  2.8 MHz or 5.6MHz (DXD) rates. PCM audio is supported up to 384kHz/32-bit resolution. It connects to your computer over USB using ASIO 2.1 or DoP." --for under $500 as a refurbished unit.

 

I agree we don't have to break the bank to hear good music.

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

I do favor Schiit, and you are correct-- the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap-- is priced out of the DSD-streaming subscription market.

 

Almost my entire library is 24/192, 24/96 FLAC and MP3@320 files. My target demographic would look at me with a blank stare if I started talking about DSD256.

 

Which is to say, as a practical concern, my class of listeners found Hi-Res Audio, stored on a 1Tb external drive--a Great Leap Forward, compared to their 16/44 Redbook CD collection.

 

I am not going to say that in the years to come,  DSD streaming is not the next big thing, or am I going to jump into the MQA realm just now.

 

If that is where we are headed, then we will jump onboard that Train when the offerings include familiar recordings, not some obscure vocalist that has never been close to a Billboard Top-100 chart.

 

What I have found available in DSD is nothing I am interested in listening to, nor willing to invest in hardware to decode. (And if I am wrong, please tell me where Simon and Garfunkel, or Thomas Dolby is offered in DSD.)

 

I am a very Grateful Dead-head. The vast library of 24-bit soundboard recordings will probably never be part of a DSD streaming service. To each their own.

 

One article I read about Schiit said they were targeting folks who wanted to make the Stereo they had, sound its best.

 

Computer Audiophile on the Cheap makes decisions based on "Perceived quality vs. Investment" in all choices.

most of the "good dead stuff" is bootlegs not audiophile worthy (wink), at least according to my brother.....  My brother had a collection of several hundred tapes that he spent years collecting and trading for.  I donated them to a neighbor of his at his passing. 

Anyway, for your liking, i would recommend the optical solution over usb...jmo

 

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

A quick Google found this:  "TEAC's new UD-501 is the star of the 501 series. The UD-501 supports Direct Stream Digital (DSD) playback at either  2.8 MHz or 5.6MHz (DXD) rates. PCM audio is supported up to 384kHz/32-bit resolution. It connects to your computer over USB using ASIO 2.1 or DoP." --for under $500 as a refurbished unit.

 

I agree we don't have to break the bank to hear good music.

you can find the NT503 on used market now for $500, and would be my recommendation over the 501, if purchased today.

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, beerandmusic said:

you can find the NT503 on used market now for $500, and would be my recommendation over the 501.

 

As I said, when I bought - no NT503's were on the market and this fell into my lap with warranty. Not going to argue about that.

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

As I said, when I bought - no NT503's were on the market and this fell into my lap with warranty. Not going to argue about that.

yea, reading thread backwards...and i was responding to bob, as i didnt see your post first...i am sure the 501 is great for the price!

i even edited my post to include..... if purchased today. ....

[botrytis]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

yea, reading thread backwards...and i was responding to bob, as i didnt see your post first...i am sure the 501 is great for the price!

 

No worries. 

[beerandmusic]

^^^ btw, if you buy an asus vivo vm60, it has optical out and you won't even need an allo bridge....it will sound great for pcm out the optical for cheap.

 

[bigbob]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

most of the "good dead stuff" is bootlegs not audiophile worthy (wink), at least according to my brother.....  My brother had a collection of several hundred tapes that he spent years collecting and trading for.  I donated them to a neighbor of his at his passing. 

Anyway, for your liking, i would recommend the optical solution over usb...jmo

 

 

Yes, you are correct--almost all of the Traders would have cassettes that had many generations on them.

 

Gawd, they were awful quality, but as valuable as Samizdat in the Deadhead community.

 

With bit-torrent and etree.org, some soundboard recordings were sampled at 24/96 and FREEly distributed. They are "Audiophile" quality, compared to a 12th generation copy of an audience cassette recording.

 

Of particular interest are what we call the "Debbie Stash".

 

When Jerry Garcia left his mortal coil in 1995, his current wife had a ton of reel-tapes which were "Jerry's copies" of Stereo mix-downs from the 16-track soundboard recording. Charlie Miller and other archivists have been releasing these over the etree.org repository--for Free.

 

We sort of chuckle when the Grateful Dead announces the "never-before-released" copies of shows in a limited edition set.

 

Many of us have all they offer, already in soundboard recordings, in our library-- to which we say, "Thanks, Debbie"