Time To Dump Tidal? Bluesound / BlueOS Now Has Deezer HiFi

[psjug]

28 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

Could it be that they are only supplying MP3 tracks for that album when streaming from the US?

The icon for format shows "HIFI" and the BluOS log is showing 44100/16/2 for that track.  I don't see any errors showing up in the log even though the track cuts off at something like 8:32.

[Abtr]

22 hours ago, MarkS said:

I wonder about this "bits are bits" argument in a different form because a local file played from my nas sounds better than "the same" file (same song from same cd) streamed from Tidal, and that makes no sense to my brain (bits are bits) but exists in my ears.

The album from Tidal is most likely the latest remastering with a (much) reduced dynamic range (the same version you get when you buy the CD new now)..   

[MarkS]

2 hours ago, Abtr said:

The album from Tidal is most likely the latest remastering with a (much) reduced dynamic range (the same version you get when you buy the CD new now)..   

 

?

[psjug]

This is interesting - Deezer seems to be quietly streaming some 24-bit tracks (it looks to be ordinary 44/24 with FLAC compression).  See the posts by ymjonline on the Deezer Community forum, link below.  The BluOS controller format icon is "HR" for the 24-bit tracks instead of the normal "HIFI".

https://en.deezercommunity.com/what-are-you-listening-to-17/finding-mqa-titles-184/index1.html#post11936

[The Computer Audiophile]

I'm not at home, but will test this asap when I can

[Cebolla]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:51 PM, psjug said:

This is interesting - Deezer seems to be quietly streaming some 24-bit tracks (it looks to be ordinary 44/24 with FLAC compression).  See the posts by ymjonline on the Deezer Community forum, link below.  The BluOS controller format icon is "HR" for the 24-bit tracks instead of the normal "HIFI".

https://en.deezercommunity.com/what-are-you-listening-to-17/finding-mqa-titles-184/index1.html#post11936

 

I can varify that all of the tracks on Impact's Scriptura album are currently 24-bit FLAC, not just the track mentioned in one of the posts - tested using LMS via the ickStream platform.

[psjug]

On 1/4/2018 at 10:33 AM, Cebolla said:

 

I can varify that all of the tracks on Impact's Scriptura album are currently 24-bit FLAC, not just the track mentioned in one of the posts - tested using LMS via the ickStream platform.

Yes, the whole album is showing "HR" for me on bluesound too.  I haven't been able to find any of these on my own, though, and I've been streaming a lot of music on Deezer.  So I don't think there are many of these. @Cebolla - have you looked for more HR tracks, found any?

[wushuliu]

I just compared Deezer HiFi desktop to Tidal and they most definitely do NOT sound the same. VERY different presentations to me, and unfortunately the Deezer is not as good to my ears. Yes I made sure it was on 16/44. I compared several albums back and forth and the Deezer sounds slightly muted or rolled off like it has a dip in mids somewhere. This would sound smooth and pleasing on speakers with excess or poor quality treble/upper mids. Sins of omission, etc. But low level details and depth is absent. Maybe this is an issue with the desktop version.

 

I went through listening comparisons of the top streamers some years ago and they most definitely varied in presentation, with Spotify being the absolute worst. MOG though, was the best... too bad they went under.

[Rexp]

23 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

I just compared Deezer HiFi desktop to Tidal and they most definitely do NOT sound the same. VERY different presentations to me, and unfortunately the Deezer is not as good to my ears. Yes I made sure it was on 16/44. I compared several albums back and forth and the Deezer sounds slightly muted or rolled off like it has a dip in mids somewhere. This would sound smooth and pleasing on speakers with excess or poor quality treble/upper mids. Sins of omission, etc. But low level details and depth is absent. Maybe this is an issue with the desktop version.

 

I went through listening comparisons of the top streamers some years ago and they most definitely varied in presentation, with Spotify being the absolute worst. MOG though, was the best... too bad they went under.

Agree, Deezer does sound rolled off in comparison but overall I still prefer it. Btw I much prefer the sound using the Deezer app on an ios device via chromecast.

[Cebolla]

On 1/7/2018 at 1:18 PM, psjug said:

Yes, the whole album is showing "HR" for me on bluesound too.  I haven't been able to find any of these on my own, though, and I've been streaming a lot of music on Deezer.  So I don't think there are many of these. @Cebolla - have you looked for more HR tracks, found any?

 

No, no idea how to.

[Cebolla]

11 hours ago, Rexp said:

Agree, Deezer does sound rolled off in comparison but overall I still prefer it. Btw I much prefer the sound using the Deezer app on an ios device via chromecast.

 

Wow, so you prefer non-HiFi Deezer on iOS (via Chromecast) to HiFi Deezer on a desktop?

[Cebolla]

12 hours ago, wushuliu said:

I just compared Deezer HiFi desktop to Tidal and they most definitely do NOT sound the same. VERY different presentations to me, and unfortunately the Deezer is not as good to my ears. Yes I made sure it was on 16/44. I compared several albums back and forth and the Deezer sounds slightly muted or rolled off like it has a dip in mids somewhere. This would sound smooth and pleasing on speakers with excess or poor quality treble/upper mids. Sins of omission, etc. But low level details and depth is absent. Maybe this is an issue with the desktop version.

 

I went through listening comparisons of the top streamers some years ago and they most definitely varied in presentation, with Spotify being the absolute worst. MOG though, was the best... too bad they went under.

 

The Windows version of the Deezer HiFi/beta desktop app doesn't allow you to set the audio output device and in particular to one in exclusive mode, unlike the Windows TIDAL desktop app. So the Windows Deezer desktop app forces you to use the default Windows audio device with its preconfigured audio settings (meaning you have to make sure that too is set to 16/44.1kHz to avoid resampling by the Windows audio mixer) and can unfortunately be shared by any sound producing application (including Window's system sounds) - not really ideal for 'hifi'.

[wushuliu]

2 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

 

The Windows version of the Deezer HiFi/beta desktop app doesn't allow you to set the audio output device and in particular to one in exclusive mode, unlike the Windows TIDAL desktop app. So the Windows Deezer desktop app forces you to use the default Windows audio device with its preconfigured audio settings (meaning you have to make sure that too is set to 16/44.1kHz to avoid resampling by the Windows audio mixer) and can unfortunately be shared by any sound producing application (including Window's system sounds) - not really ideal for 'hifi'.

 

Yes, all that was checked. It's the kind of presentation that some people would definitely prefer especially as most speakers/headphones, especially wireless/portable have unrefined upper mids and treble, which is fine. It just highlights though how little transparency there is when it comes to anything streaming. Clearly some kind of tweaking or processing was done. I'm sure Tidal does it too, but in the opposite way that maybe highlights rap/pop. Kind of like Kodak vs. Fuji film stock back in analog days, or ATI vs. Nvidia video cards. There is a subtle 'house sound' or look to fit branding and differentiate.

 

 

[Abtr]

56 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

Yes, all that was checked. It's the kind of presentation that some people would definitely prefer especially as most speakers/headphones, especially wireless/portable have unrefined upper mids and treble, which is fine. It just highlights though how little transparency there is when it comes to anything streaming. Clearly some kind of tweaking or processing was done. I'm sure Tidal does it too, but in the opposite way that maybe highlights rap/pop. Kind of like Kodak vs. Fuji film stock back in analog days, or ATI vs. Nvidia video cards. There is a subtle 'house sound' or look to fit branding and differentiate.

 

I am very sure that Tidal does not in any way 'tweak or process' the sound, and I presume Deezer doesn't do that either. Both (HiFi) services stream *lossless* audio files, but a Deezer stream must go through Windows audio mixer and may no longer be lossless when it arrives at your DAC, and the extra required processing introduces electrical noise that may ultimately interfere with analogue signal reconstruction in the DAC..

[wushuliu]

12 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

I am very sure that Tidal does not in any way 'tweak or process' the sound, and I presume Deezer doesn't do that either. Both (HiFi) services stream *lossless* audio files, but a Deezer stream must go through Windows audio mixer and may no longer be lossless when it arrives at your DAC, and the extra required processing introduces electrical noise that may ultimately interfere with analogue signal reconstruction in the DAC..

 

1. You have absolutely no idea what these companies are doing. So any kind of speaking from authority on that is pointless. That's why we are having dust-ups like with MQA. There is zero transparency when it comes to streaming. Zero. Unless of course you know something we don't, in which case any illumination would be helpful.

 

2. What I'm hearing has nothing to do with the Windows mixer. I have listened to these albums on multiple formats both lossy and lossless, including Google Play and rando Youtube uploads - the audibility of compression varied (some in mp3, some lossless) but the presentation/tonality/eq/whatever were more or less the same and not like Deezer. As I said, it's possible the desktop App is to blame, but the windows mixer is not the culprit here. My PC is custom builty (by me) runs on LT3045 powered SSDs with an dual mono ES9018q2m dac with XMOS u208, itself powered by an LT3045 and IFI iPurifier. I keep track of my OS installs and sound quality with both fancy stuff like Jplay or basic playback software like MPC-HC, etc. etc. etc.

 

I've been doing this a long time.

 

At any rate, this just MY feedback. Not an absolute statement. Anyone can take a few minutes and compare for themselves.

[crenca]

4 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

 

1. You have absolutely no idea what these companies are doing. So any kind of speaking from authority on that is pointless. That's why we are having dust-ups like with MQA. There is zero transparency when it comes to streaming. Zero. Unless of course you know something we don't, in which case any illumination would be helpful.

 

2. What I'm hearing has nothing to do with the Windows mixer. I have listened to these albums on multiple formats both lossy and lossless, including Google Play and rando Youtube uploads - the audibility of compression varied (some in mp3, some lossless) but the presentation/tonality/eq/whatever were more or less the same and not like Deezer. As I said, it's possible the desktop App is to blame, but the windows mixer is not the culprit here. My PC is custom builty (by me) runs on LT3045 powered SSDs with an dual mono ES9018q2m dac with XMOS u208, itself powered by an LT3045 and IFI iPurifier. I keep track of my OS installs and sound quality with both fancy stuff like Jplay or basic playback software like MPC-HC, etc. etc. etc.

 

I've been doing this a long time.

 

At any rate, this just MY feedback. Not an absolute statement. Anyone can take a few minutes and compare for themselves.

 

Wushuliu,

 

Does not what you say about zero transparency in #1 also apply to #2?  If I am not mistaken (I could be - do you have information?), there is "zero transparency" as to what the Windows mixer does, even when set to what (to the end user) appear to be the optimum and non-interference settings.  My personal sense is that when set up correctly, it is relatively non-interfering but that is subjective...

[wushuliu]

10 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Wushuliu,

 

Does not what you say about zero transparency in #1 also apply to #2?  If I am not mistaken (I could be - do you have information?), there is "zero transparency" as to what the Windows mixer does, even when set to what (to the end user) appear to be the optimum and non-interference settings.  My personal sense is that when set up correctly, it is relatively non-interfering but that is subjective...

 

You are correct in that we also have zero clue about the windows mixer and what it does with its funky resampling, which is unfortunate. What I'm saying is I've done playback via the mixer plenty of times so I know what to listen for. It doesn't roll off frequencies or smoothen out tracks. Heck, I'll go so far as to say as of the Creator's Update the W10 usb drivers and whatever resampling they've done sometimes sounds *better* than when I bypass with software like Jplay/Minimserver, etc. So I agree, especially these days, stock Windows playback quality is the best it's ever been. Hence my saying it's not the culprit.

 

I suggest people just compare for themselves. Maybe there's something I've missed. Maybe the desktopp App (which is beta?) is doing something screwy. Anyway, it's good to do these comparisons and to do them in as ways as possible to get a sense of what you hear and how you hear. I do it all the time.

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, wushuliu said:

... There is zero transparency when it comes to streaming. Zero. Unless of course you know something we don't, in which case any illumination would be helpful. ...

 

It can actually be tested whether an audio stream is lossless (bit perfect relative to the original) or not, and I assure you that Tidal hifi is lossless (not tweaked or processed as you suggested). And it seems very, very unlikely that Deezer purposely rolled off the treble of their entire catalogue, or (alternatively) processes/tweaks all downloads on the fly..

[wushuliu]

11 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

It can actually be tested whether an audio stream is lossless (bit perfect relative to the original) or not, and I assure you that Tidal hifi is lossless (not tweaked or processed as you said). And it seems very, very unlikely that Deezer purposely rolled off the treble of their entire catalogue, or (alternatively) processes/tweaks all downloads on the fly..

 

I never questioned whether or not they were lossless. Being bitperfect has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

As for the latter, yeah sure, who knows. Maybe if they were all transparent with their process we wouldn't be having all these silly threads. There is nothing to stop them from doing so. The same goes for all streaming, frankly, including Netflix, Hulu, etc. 

[Abtr]

10 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

I never questioned whether or not they were lossless. Being bitperfect has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. ...

if the streams are bit perfect (a perfect copy of the original) when they arrive at your DAC, then there shouldn't be any sound difference.

[wushuliu]

1 minute ago, Abtr said:

if the streams are bit perfect (a perfect copy of the original) when they arrive at your DAC, then there shouldn't be any sound difference.

 

And yet... there is. Duh Duh Duuuuuuh.

 

Again, bitperfect has nothing to do with it. These files don't come from some Platonic Master Pure Source Matrix. We have no idea where these files come from, how they are delivered, what the masters are. We know nothing. Nothing.

 

 

[crenca]

3 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

 

And yet... there is. Duh Duh Duuuuuuh.

 

Again, bitperfect has nothing to do with it. These files don't come from some Platonic Master Pure Source Matrix. We have no idea where these files come from, how they are delivered, what the masters are. We know nothing. Nothing.

 

 

 

LOL!  "Platonic Master Pure Source Matrix".  Apparently, if we all adopted MQA this (and everything else including Pure Enlightenment) would be ours....alas, if only it were true.

[Abtr]

55 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

And yet... there is. Duh Duh Duuuuuuh.

 

Again, bitperfect has nothing to do with it. These files don't come from some Platonic Master Pure Source Matrix. We have no idea where these files come from, how they are delivered, what the masters are. We know nothing. Nothing.

 

Listen wushuliu (and crenca), first, this has nothing to do with MQA. Second, one can simply capture a lossless redbook stream from Tidal (or Deezer) and verify that it is bit for bit the same data as is on, e.g., a CD of the same master. Period. There *cannot* be a sound difference between the same losless files from the same master. Any perceived sound difference must be caused by the use of different masters or by Windows mixer or by specific galvanic issues of different hardware used. Your suggestion that Tidal 'tweaks' the sound of downloads is absurd. Duh.

[wushuliu]

4 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

Listen wushuliu (and crenca), first, this has nothing to do with MQA. Second, one can simply capture a lossless redbook stream from Tidal (or Deezer) and verify that it is bit for bit the same data as is on, e.g., a CD of the same master. Period. There *can't* be a sound difference between the same losless files from the same master. Any perceived sound difference must be caused by the use of different masters or by Windows mixer or by specific galvanic issues of different hardware used. Your suggestion that Tidal 'tweaks' the sound of downloads is absurd. Duh.

 

You're getting a bit worked up and cherry picking my statements to fit a particular strawman. But let's play anyway. So what you're saying is that I can identify whatever is streaming as having come from the exact same master as a CD? Regardless of pressing? That there is indeed a Master Source from which all streaming and compact discs can be traced via bit analysis? 

[wushuliu]

Actually, even better, what you're saying is I can trace the streaming data to pin point exactly which

13 minutes ago, Abtr said:

 

There *can't* be a sound difference between the same losless files from the same master. Any perceived sound difference must be caused by the use of different masters

 

Also isn't that one of the issues I brought up? That we don't know what masters are used? So you're implying that yes we can determine what masters were used. In which case, I would like to know how so I can confirm that on each platform. That would be very helpful.