Time To Dump Tidal? Bluesound / BlueOS Now Has Deezer HiFi

[Abtr]

17 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

... So what you're saying is that I can identify whatever is streaming as having come from the exact same master as a CD? Regardless of pressing? That there is indeed a Master Source from which all streaming and compact discs can be traced via bit analysis? 

Yep. What you call the pressing, is the master. Note that an album may have multiple (re)mastered versions which will sound significantly different (usually as a result of different dynamic range compression and limiting).  

[wushuliu]

7 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Yep. What you call pressing, is the master. And note that an album may have multiple (re)mastered versions which will sound significantly different.  

 

And how do I do that. How do I determine what master/'pressing' was used from say, a Tidal track. What are the steps?

[Abtr]

35 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

And how do I do that. How do I determine what master/'pressing' was used from say, a Tidal track. What are the steps?

Digital recording of streaming audio can be done with e.g. Audacity (free software). See, Windows WASAPI loopback recording:

http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/tutorial_recording_computer_playback_on_windows.html

 

[wushuliu]

15 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Digital recording of streaming audio can be done with e.g. Audacity (free software). See, Windows WASAPI loopback recording:

http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/tutorial_recording_computer_playback_on_windows.html

 

 

Aren't there more steps than that? The goal here isn't to verify if my output is bit perfect. Plenty of info out there on that. The goal here is per your earlier to posts, to trace back which CD pressing/release was used as a means of determining partially, the 'master'.

 

Trying to get a handle on what you've outlined because I don't see anything about this online.

[Abtr]

14 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

... The goal here isn't to verify if my output is bit perfect. Plenty of info out there on that. The goal here is per your earlier to posts, to trace back which CD pressing/release was used as a means of determining partially, the 'master'. ...

Bit perfect is a relative term. Your output is bit perfect (hopefully), but a file is bit perfect or losless relative to the master. To determine if a file streamed from Tidal is bit perfect, you need to capture the stream from Tidal and compare it to e.g. a file ripped from a CD that is known to be from the same master.

[Rexp]

9 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

It can actually be tested whether an audio stream is lossless (bit perfect relative to the original) or not, and I assure you that Tidal hifi is lossless (not tweaked or processed as you suggested). And it seems very, very unlikely that Deezer purposely rolled off the treble of their entire catalogue, or (alternatively) processes/tweaks all downloads on the fly..

It's not very very unlikely, if you bothered to compare, you would agree its highly likely Deezers output is rolled off. Perhaps someone with a scope can check it.

[wushuliu]

11 hours ago, Rexp said:

It's not very very unlikely, if you bothered to compare, you would agree its highly likely Deezers output is rolled off. Perhaps someone with a scope can check it.

 

18 hours ago, Abtr said:

Bit perfect is a relative term. Your output is bit perfect (hopefully), but a file is bit perfect or losless relative to the master. To determine if a file streamed from Tidal is bit perfect, you need to capture the stream from Tidal and compare it to e.g. a file ripped from a CD that is known to be from the same master.

 

But this is not answering the current question of what the process is for verifying. I've been trying to take the approach of a neophyte so that the explanations would be clearer but that's not working. So:

 

What you're saying as far as I can tell is that if I say, use Audacity, that it has the means to capture a track from say Tidal. You don't say if this involves some kind of metadata pulling or if this is just old school same time recording while another program is playing.

 

Then I would take that captured track, buy whatever CDs have that track, rip the tracks from those different releases (if any additional) and then proceed to compare something, I'm not sure what, in order to determine that the captured track is bitperfect and also thereby verify which release or related 'master' the track was pulled from. Or perhaps use something like dbPoweramp to match what pressing/release/'master' whatever? That is the only way what you have outlined makes sense, and I have never read anyone anywhere use those methods  - or any method - to trace back a streaming track. If there's a link that would be super helpful.

 

To top it off, this digression wasn't even the main point of my earlier post. But I kept with it in hopes there was some new development I missed. I don't think there is. I think we are talking about two different things. 

[Abtr]

23 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

...

To top it off, this digression wasn't even the main point of my earlier post. But I kept with it in hopes there was some new development I missed. I don't think there is. I think we are talking about two different things. 

The point is, as far as I'm concerned, that you stated earlier that Tidal tweaks the sound of its losless (bit perfect) downloads. People have of course checked if losless audio streams from Tidal indeed contain the same bits as the original recordings (e.g. on a CD) and they do. So you are wrong. And I didn't so much pointed out a method to check this for yourself; I just indicated that it can be done and has been done. If you're interested, google the subject..

[wushuliu]

18 minutes ago, Abtr said:

The point is, as far as I'm concerned, that you stated earlier that Tidal tweaks the sound of its losless (bit perfect) downloads. People have of course checked if losless audio streams from Tidal indeed contain the same bits as the original recordings (e.g. on a CD) and they do. So you are wrong. And I didn't so much pointed out a method to check this for yourself; I just indicated that it can be done and has been done. If you're interested, google the subject..

 

Okay, well, I googled. So far I have found two offhand references - one by RexP actually in another thread saying to just compare tracks like you've been saying - and then a reference by someone on SuperBestAudioFriends or whatever that they compared and had a match. No specifics on the process, nothing. That's it.

 

HOWEVER

 

During my googling I DID come across something interesting. Many, many articles on this. Turns out Tidal does loudness normalization on all of their tracks. Tons of articles on it, totally verified. 

 

I think normalization by any measure qualifies as processing : )

[Yorkie]

7 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

....I think normalization by any measure qualifies as processing : )

 

Wouldn't playback volume information be added as meta-data?  If so, volume normalisation wouldn't affect the music bit-stream but might affect how it comes across in comparisons because the amplifier volume setting is not consistent.

[wushuliu]

Just now, Yorkie said:

 

Wouldn't playback volume information be added as meta-data?  If so, volume normalisation wouldn't affect the music bit-stream but might affect how it comes across in comparisons because the amplifier volume setting is not consistent.

 

Don't know. But it sounds like you're saying a stream can have processing and yet still be 'bit-perfect' : )

 

There is an additional link in the article I referenced above to a study done by the person Tidal consulted on implementing what sounds like a proprietary loudness normalization method. I'll read it later when I have time. 

[Abtr]

12 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

...

HOWEVER

 

During my googling I DID come across something interesting. Many, many articles on this. Turns out Tidal does loudness normalization on all of their tracks. Tons of articles on it, totally verified. 

 

I think normalization by any measure qualifies as processing : )

Normalization can be turned off for Tidal's less than losless streaming options. For losless streaming (Tidal hifi/master) in exclusive WASAPI mode, normalization is of course disabled.

[wushuliu]

8 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Normalization can be turned off for Tidal's less than losless streaming options. For losless streaming (Tidal hifi/master) in exclusive WASAPI mode, normalization is of course disabled.

 

So a normalized track from Tidal should fail the bit perfect test, correct?

[Abtr]

3 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

So a normalized track from Tidal should fail the bit perfect test, correct?

Yes. And all losless streams from Tidal are losless (not normalized).

[crenca]

7 hours ago, wushuliu said:

 

So a normalized track from Tidal should fail the bit perfect test, correct?

 

Yes, but this is a user selectable option done on the app level after the stream...so, the end user would have to intentionally alter the "bit perfect" stream.  

[Rexp]

On 1/11/2018 at 12:41 AM, Cebolla said:

 

Wow, so you prefer non-HiFi Deezer on iOS (via Chromecast) to HiFi Deezer on a desktop?

Oops was comparing the webplayer to the ios app both of which are mp3. The desktop app HiFi is indeed better. 

[shadowlight]

If you are using Deezer with IckStream can you let me know if you are having the following problems:

 

1) Flow pulls 10 songs and stops at the end. The native Deezer LMS plugin does not have similar issue other than it is MP3 only.
2) Web Radio gives you the list but does not provide the option to play
3) Top charts only pulls 10 albums, under Deezer Plugin I see 296 listed and 50 albums at a time displayed

4) Do you see the option for Genres?

 

If not can you share your ickstream setting.

[psjug]

delete

[psjug]

Interesting that Deezer just raised a whole lot of money, mostly Saudi Arabian.  Meanwhile, we are approaching a year of no updates since the announcement last September that MQA would be coming to Deezer.

 

http://news.abs-cbn.com/business/08/03/18/streaming-giant-deezer-raises-186-million