Time To Dump Tidal? Bluesound / BlueOS Now Has Deezer HiFi

[Melvin]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

Have you compared Bluesound to the windows/mac app? I signed up to the hifi service today and it sounds great on my laptop (with fidelizer purist).

 

Hey Rexp .. only briefly. Except for some listening tests I haven't used my Mac mini for audio since purchasing the Node 2. Funny, I just recently re-inserted the mini (as well as an Acer Chromebook R11 and iPhone 6) for yet another test. Deezer sounded great through each. If you have any interest I have a blog post about it here: Tranquility.

[psjug]

I think Deezer sounds great on Bluesound. Also Deezer on bluesound plays gapless unlike Deezer's Windows app (unless Deezer has fixed that).

 

I will say that I find it slight;y annoying that the Deezer app is so different on various devices.  I expect some differences, but it would be nice if Deezer had some unified vision of basic appearance, menu structure, and nomenclature.

[Melvin]

15 minutes ago, psjug said:

I think Deezer sounds great on Bluesound. Also Deezer on bluesound plays gapless unlike Deezer's Windows app (unless Deezer has fixed that).

 

I will say that I find it slight;y annoying that the Deezer app is so different on various devices.  I expect some differences, but it would be nice if Deezer had some unified vision of basic appearance, menu structure, and nomenclature.

 

I agree with you on the sound, but gapless is still lacking, at least from what I've heard myself. An example is this album:

 

 

The gap between tracks 3 & 4 is particularly noticeable. I've experienced the same with other recordings.

[psjug]

16 minutes ago, Melvin said:

 

I agree with you on the sound, but gapless is still lacking, at least from what I've heard myself. An example is this album:

 

 

The gap between tracks 3 & 4 is particularly noticeable. I've experienced the same with other recordings.

I checked this and indeed there was a problem.  It did not seem to be a gap though, more like the end of track 3 was cut off.  Also, the BluOS controller was showing 0 time remaining about half way through the track but then continued to play past 8 minutes.  And on Sonos the track was cut off at about 5 1/2 minutes. So I think it is some other issue with the track/album besides gapless. 

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, Melvin said:

 

Hey Rexp .. only briefly. Except for some listening tests I haven't used my Mac mini for audio since purchasing the Node 2. Funny, I just recently re-inserted the mini (as well as an Acer Chromebook R11 and iPhone 6) for yet another test. Deezer sounded great through each. If you have any interest I have a blog post about it here: Tranquility.

Great blog Melvin! Interesting you found iphone to be the best device for Deezer. I have it on my ipad but wasnt sure it provided 16/44?

[Melvin]

21 minutes ago, psjug said:

I checked this and indeed there was a problem.  It did not seem to be a gap though, more like the end of track 3 was cut off.  Also, the BluOS controller was showing 0 time remaining about half way through the track but then continued to play past 8 minutes.  And on Sonos the track was cut off at about 5 1/2 minutes. So I think it is some other issue with the track/album besides gapless. 

 

Perhaps. I hope you're right and Deezer/Bluesound have addressed this. Last I remember reading on the topic was Deezer uses cross-fading to somewhat mitigate the issue. As I've already mentioned, I've heard the same on other albums as well. I will have to explore further. Thanks for mentioning this psjug.

[psjug]

44 minutes ago, Melvin said:

The gap between tracks 3 & 4 is particularly noticeable. I've experienced the same with other recordings.

FWIW Qobuz on bluesound is having an even harder time with track 3.  It cut off after a little over a minute.  So I think the file is corrupted.

[psjug]

3 minutes ago, Melvin said:

Last I remember reading on the topic was Deezer uses cross-fading to somewhat mitigate the issue.

I could be wrong, but I thought the complaints about cross fading were for the lower tier service with MP3.

[Melvin]

18 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Great blog Melvin! Interesting you found iphone to be the best device for Deezer. I have it on my ipad but wasnt sure it provided 16/44?

 

Thank you. Now, wouldn't that be interesting if the iPhone app doesn't !?! My Pixel 2 does so I just assumed as much for the iPhone. Sounds great nonetheless. Clearly I need more info. 

 

Well, checking the settings on the Android app again .. "High Quality (HQ)". So, no flac. Funny, I still think it sounds better than through the Node 2. Clearly, my audiophile club card should be revoked. 

[psjug]

44 minutes ago, psjug said:

FWIW Qobuz on bluesound is having an even harder time with track 3.  It cut off after a little over a minute.  So I think the file is corrupted.

Hmm, everything I try to play on Qobuz right now is cutting off and skipping (maybe my Qobuz trial ended?)  So the above doesn't mean anything.  Deezer seems to be playing OK in general though, so I still think track 3 on the Haden/Barron: Night and The City album is messed up.

[Rexp]

1 hour ago, Melvin said:

 

Thank you. Now, wouldn't that be interesting if the iPhone app doesn't !?! My Pixel 2 does so I just assumed as much for the iPhone. Sounds great nonetheless. Clearly I need more info. 

 

Well, checking the settings on the Android app again .. "High Quality (HQ)". So, no flac. Funny, I still think it sounds better than through the Node 2. Clearly, my audiophile club card should be revoked. 

I used to prefer the mp3 on the ipad to the flac on the laptop until I installed fidelzer purist mode.

[Melvin]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Great blog Melvin! Interesting you found iphone to be the best device for Deezer. I have it on my ipad but wasnt sure it provided 16/44?

 

Quoting you again  .. I'm really glad you posted this. Proves one should never assume. I've updated my blog with an addendum. 

 

1 minute ago, Rexp said:

I used to prefer the mp3 on the ipad to the flac on the laptop until I installed fidelzer purist mode.

 

Interesting. Thanks.

[Melvin]

38 minutes ago, psjug said:

Hmm, everything I try to play on Qobuz right now is cutting off and skipping (maybe my Qobuz trial ended?)  So the above doesn't mean anything.  Deezer seems to be playing OK in general though, so I still think track 3 on the Haden/Barron: Night and The City album is messed up.

 

I often use the Charlie Haden recording in my tests for several reasons, being gapless is but one. Since your posts I've been listening to Dark Side of the Moon .. it's gapless. Thank you!

[psjug]

15 minutes ago, Melvin said:

I've been listening to Dark Side of the Moon .. it's gapless.

Thanks for confirming that.  Also, I enjoyed reading your blog.  Interesting that the 320kbps MP3 sounds so good on your system.  I have never been unhappy with the sound of 320 kbps MP3 or ACC.  If fact I am almost thankful for the gap problem with MP3 since it gives me a concrete reason to pay more for Deezer Hifi's gapless FLAC.

[Melvin]

4 minutes ago, psjug said:

Thanks for confirming that.  Also, I enjoyed reading your blog.  Interesting that the 320kbps MP3 sounds so good on your system.  I have never been unhappy with the sound of 320 kbps MP3 or ACC.  If fact I am almost thankful for the gap problem with MP3 since it gives me a concrete reason to pay more for Deezer Hifi's gapless FLAC.

 

Thank you. Makes me wonder if I'd just be happy with their lower tier service however, even though the Bluesound integration could be much more refined, I like it and it sounds great. The gapless is most welcome.

 

Now listening to Keith Jarrett's The Köln Concert and it seems gapless as well. Could it be Deezer's cross-fade function is absolutely amazing? God knows I may be mistaken.

[MarkS]

On 12/9/2017 at 5:47 AM, Abtr said:

 

IF Deezer does sound better than Tidal lossless, then there are only 2 possible explanations:

 

1) Deezer has different masters of the same albums

2) You stream Deezer and Tidal from different devices with different galvanic issues

 

Basically however it's impossible. Bits are bits, you know..

 

 

I wonder about this "bits are bits" argument in a different form because a local file played from my nas sounds better than "the same" file (same song from same cd) streamed from Tidal, and that makes no sense to my brain (bits are bits) but exists in my ears.

[Cebolla]

8 hours ago, Melvin said:

 

I agree with you on the sound, but gapless is still lacking, at least from what I've heard myself. An example is this album:

 

 

The gap between tracks 3 & 4 is particularly noticeable. I've experienced the same with other recordings.

 

I've checked this on the Deezer HiFi via the ickStream Platform for Logitech Media Server, which serves as the audio file source for Squeezebox type players and there's no such issue. FLAC track 3 'Spring is Here' is 10:20 long, plays all the way through and FLAC track 4 ''Body and Soul' is gaplessly played next.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, psjug said:

I checked this and indeed there was a problem.  It did not seem to be a gap though, more like the end of track 3 was cut off.  Also, the BluOS controller was showing 0 time remaining about half way through the track but then continued to play past 8 minutes.  And on Sonos the track was cut off at about 5 1/2 minutes. So I think it is some other issue with the track/album besides gapless. 

 

May be it's a Bluesound & Sonos issue, as the Squeezebox type devices have no problem that FLAC track/album from Deezer HiFi. 

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, MarkS said:

 

I wonder about this "bits are bits" argument in a different form because a local file played from my nas sounds better than "the same" file (same song from same cd) streamed from Tidal, and that makes no sense to my brain (bits are bits) but exists in my ears.

 

Here's a couple of questions, either one might clear up the mystery for you (they have for me):

Could your brain be mistaken in thinking that it's the same song from the exact same CD?

Could your brain be mistaken in thinking that TIDAL couldn't be possibly be altering the original bits (either by accident or on purpose)?

[psjug]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

 

I've checked this on the Deezer HiFi via the ickStream Platform for Logitech Media Server, which serves as the audio file source for Squeezebox type players and there's no such issue.

The ickStream platform must be more robust in dealing with whatever corruption the file has.  The Deezer beta Windows app also seems to have a problem with it.  It shows track length as a little over 6 min.  However, it plays for over 10 min and almost makes it to the end but not quite... cut off at about 10:05. 

[RichardSF]

2 hours ago, MarkS said:

 

I wonder about this "bits are bits" argument in a different form because a local file played from my nas sounds better than "the same" file (same song from same cd) streamed from Tidal, and that makes no sense to my brain (bits are bits) but exists in my ears.

 

The track from Tidal could be watermarked:

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

[Rexp]

8 hours ago, MarkS said:

 

I wonder about this "bits are bits" argument in a different form because a local file played from my nas sounds better than "the same" file (same song from same cd) streamed from Tidal, and that makes no sense to my brain (bits are bits) but exists in my ears.

Try downloading the Tidal version, I bet it will sound the same as your ripped version (assuming no watermark).

[Cebolla]

13 hours ago, psjug said:

The ickStream platform must be more robust in dealing with whatever corruption the file has.  The Deezer beta Windows app also seems to have a problem with it.  It shows track length as a little over 6 min.  However, it plays for over 10 min and almost makes it to the end but not quite... cut off at about 10:05. 

 

I've fired up the current beta version of the Deezer Windows Desktop app (0.2.46) and it has no problems with the HiFi lossless FLAC version of the track (apart from the expected lack of gapless) and it is also showing the correct length of 10:20!

 

Are you sure you've set the Desktop app's audio setting to HiFi 1411kb/s, so that you are actually playing FLAC tracks?

 

I think the early cut off you mentioned at about 10:05, is a huge clue as to why you may be having problems with the Bluesound & Sonos devices. When the track is playing normally just before the end, at around the 10:07 mark, the musicians suddenly pause for dramatic effect for less than a second before playing the last few seconds of the piece. This sudden very large drop in volume is probably triggering a false crossfade point in those devices, if they are using a crossfader to implement gapless.

 

Incidentally, crossfading with end of track detection is not necessary to implement gapless for lossless file formats, such as FLAC. There is naturally no artificial gap when you splice together the audio contained in an album's sequential FLAC file tracks.

[psjug]

41 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

 

I've fired up the current beta version of the Deezer Windows Desktop app (0.2.46) and it has no problems with the HiFi lossless FLAC version of the track (apart from the expected lack of gapless) and it is also showing the correct length of 10:20!

 

Are you sure you've set the Desktop app's audio setting to HiFi 1411kb/s, so that you are actually playing FLAC tracks?

 

I think the early cut off you mentioned at about 10:05, is a huge clue as to why you may be having problems with the Bluesound & Sonos devices. When the track is playing normally just before the end, at around the 10:07 mark, the musicians suddenly pause for dramatic effect for less than a second before playing the last few seconds of the piece. This sudden very large drop in volume is probably triggering a false crossfade point in those devices, if they are using a crossfader to implement gapless.

 

Incidentally, crossfading with end of track detection is not necessary to implement gapless for lossless file formats, such as FLAC. There is naturally no artificial gap when you splice together the audio contained in an album's sequential FLAC file tracks.

On Sonos and Bluesound the track is cutting off much earlier, more mid track, so I don't think it has anything to do with crossfade.  I'm pretty sure I would notice cross fade if it was engaged so I'm pretty sure there is no cross fade on those devices playing Deezer FLAC streams. Normally they play perfectly gapless on seamless adjacent tracks.  I have no idea why your beta Deezer Windows app is showing the correct track length and mine is not.  I did check that the app was set to play FLAC.  But possibly I don't have the latest version.  Or I wonder if the stream to your location could possibly be coming from a different file.  Are you in the USA? (I am in northeast USA)

[psjug]

I should mention that this is the first case I've seen for this problem.  I've been playing flac files on Deezer (mostly with Sonos) for a couple years and had not ever seen this until it was mentioned in this thread.

[Cebolla]

Yes, a regional variation in the file tracks could be a possible explanation, as I'm in the UK. Unfortunately I don't have a Bluesound nor a Sonos device to test if they too are ok streaming that Deezer HiFi track from the UK or not - may be someone who does can confirm this.

 

Could it be that they are only supplying MP3 tracks for that album when streaming from the US?