Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[Jud]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

Jud - We disagree on when the 30 day guarantee went up on their web page.  Yet you have never stated that you reviewed their web page - or when.  I did and it was not there, but later was put up (with emphasis).  I don't particularly care about them, but I find your responses odd, at a minimum.  And please cease your ad hominem attacks.

 

I also ask - again - whether you have any connection with this company other than being a customer.  Do you represent them, or what?

 

 

 

Please do re-read Alex's clear statement in this thread, and the statement from a customer on April 26th in a thread on this forum regarding the 30-day return policy for the ISO Regen.  As we have established, neither plissken nor anyone else except you disagrees that, as Alex said, the 30-day return policy was clearly shown in the second paragraph of text on the ISO Regen web page from the time it went up around April 25th of this year.  You may now continue your ridiculous stance of maintaining Alex was lying and the customer referring to the 30-day return policy in this forum was capable of precognition, but I won't continue to dignify it with further responses after those I've already wasted.

 

I did visit the ISO Regen web page, as did I am supposing hundreds of others when it went live.  But I have no recollection as to the 30-day return policy (I'd been informed by Alex by then that I would receive one for free), because I had no idea at that time someone would be making a fuss about this months later.

 

Regarding my "connection with this company" - first of all, congratulations on the technique of saying I'm making ad hominem attacks, then asking about my personal bona fides regarding discussions involving UpTone.  Second, I've already told you when you asked once before in this thread: I consider Alex and John friends, and I received a free ISO Regen in return for my participation in testing.  That's my "connection," in total, beyond simply being another customer.

[jabbr]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

Seems to me 50% height in these audio plots is problematic.  It can be effected what height is by the base level noise floor.  Seems a better suggestion would be to compare levels compared to the carrier tone at some standard offset like say 5 hz.  Or to compare width in hz at some arbitrary level down from the carrier tone like maybe -80 db. 

 

I will note my opinion is from masking effects these concerns are overblown.  I think this close in with current gear all this is not making an audible difference.  While I don't oppose better performance I don't think improving this will net a change in sound quality. 

50% height is standard. With a Gaussian peak it the point of maximum slope. That means that slight errors in placing the exact vertical level will have the least effect in the measured horizontal.

 

In any case this is only an approximation of the "jitter" because other factors such as baseline noise will (slightly) affect the results.

 

I know folks here are still digesting this because it doesn't seem to be widely discussed in the audio field but this is how it's done in the other signals fields where this comes from. 

 

The unique situation we have have is that the test signal is generated in the digital domain, and the output measured in the analogue domain so we have a true end to end measurement of the DAC + transport/interface.

[esldude]

Just now, jabbr said:

50% height is standard. With a Gaussian peak it the point of maximum slope. That means that slight errors in placing the exact vertical level will have the least effect in the measured horizontal.

 

In any case this is only an approximation of the "jitter" because other factors such as baseline noise will (slightly) affect the results.

 

I know folks here are still digesting this because it doesn't seem to be widely discussed in the audio field but this is how it's done in the other signals fields where this comes from. 

 

The unique situation we have have is that the test signal is generated in the digital domain, and the output measured in the analogue domain so we have a true end to end measurement of the DAC + transport/interface.

In the context of audio signals here how are you defining 50% height?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

So you measure analog differences and then the next question is, are they audible?  Too bad no one's done objective, unbiased listening tests on the ISO Regen - oh, wait....

Jud - If Swenson wants to be a big boy audio engineer, which he was not in his day job, then he needs to have the proper equipment for audio engineering and measurement, plus an adequate understanding of audio measurement.  That would be before going off on flights of trying to suggest that audio measurements are no good, don't tell you everything, measure inaudible stuff, etc.  Or, that Regen's improvements are so sophisticated they do not show up in traditional audio measurements.

 

You are not implying, I hope, that the two person listening test you were a part of is a statistically significant sample that proves everything?  I think that test is not ideal.  Two test subjects is a good start, but more are needed, hopefully with careful documentation of the protocol. But, even so.  The unbiased listening tests we need are final version of ISO Regen vs. bypass, ideally with instantaneous switching between them.  A 3-way test involving two prototypes plus bypas should be streamlined down.

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, esldude said:

In the context of audio signals here how are you defining 50% height?

Peak to baseline. This tends to underestimate the medium range phase error (shot noise) and there are many other ways to measure curves eg area under etc 

[esldude]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

Peak to baseline. This tends to underestimate the medium range phase error (shot noise) and there are many other ways to measure curves eg area under etc 

Sorry, I should have been more specific in my question.  So if the peak to base level noise at say -140 db is the case you measure at -70 db?  Or are you referring to 50% signal strength which is the point where the side bands are - 6db from peak?  I would think the latter.

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, semente said:

And even though I wouldn't mind giving it a listen I would like to see some measurements.

The problem is that the necessary measurements have apparently not yet been conceived...

 

1 hour ago, semente said:

Sorry for the foundation-level question but what is the eye-pattern analysing/representing?

I wonder does this represent the majority? People who want measurements but really are not capable of deciding what the measurements mean?

 

What would be the benefit of such measurements if they are not something you can evaluate?

 

So lets say a set of measurements are made & posted. one side says they 'prove' the effectiveness of the device & the other side says it doesn't & that they want more definitive 'proof'. Where are you then at?

 

I'll tell you where you are at - exactly the same point as you are now at in this thread.

All this talk about measurements is just smoke & mirrors & people should examine their motivations & the scenario above to check their motivations in all of this, fiasco.

 

I mean "I wouldn't mind giving it a listen" - well then give it a listen For god's sake - these preconditions are just BS

[semente]

1 minute ago, mmerrill99 said:

 

I wonder does this represent the majority? People who want measurements but really are not capable of deciding what the measurements mean?

 

What would be the benefit of such measurements if they are not something you can evaluate?

 

So lets say a set of measurements are made & posted. one side says they 'prove' the effectiveness of the device & the other side says it doesn't & that they want more definitive 'proof'. Where are you then at?

 

I'll tell you where you are at - exactly the same point as you are now at in this thread.

All this talk about measurements is just smoke & mirrors & people should examine their motivations & the scenario above to check their motivations in all of this, fiasco.

 

IF I am able to "understand" a measurement then I have no need for other people's interpretation.

I don't have any sinister pleasure in looking at measurements UNLESS I can read them.

[wwaldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

You are not implying, I hope, that the two person listening test you were a part of is a statistically significant sample that proves everything?

 

All that proved was the 25% chance that both subjects would pick the same sample even if neither one had listened to either of the samples.

[kumakuma]

47 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Yes, John conspired to be laid off from his job, retire, and do an interstate move just to avoid this.

 

Glad my coffee cup was back on the desk when I read that.  

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

All this talk about measurements is just smoke & mirrors & people should examine their motivations & the scenario above to check their motivations in all of this, fiasco.

I just like playing with oscilloscopes.

[mmerrill99]

6 minutes ago, semente said:

 

IF I am able to "understand" a measurement then I have no need for other people's interpretation.

I don't have any sinister pleasure in looking at measurements UNLESS I can read them.

Well, you didn't seem to understand what the eye pattern measurement signified or what it even was - so what measurements do you want to see (which you understand the meaning of) before you will "have a listen"?

[mmerrill99]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

I just like playing with oscilloscopes.

Could you lend it to Semente - he's looking for a plaything!

[semente]

1 minute ago, mmerrill99 said:

Well, you didn't seem to understand what the eye pattern measurement signified or what it even was - so what measurements do you want to see (which you understand the meaning of) before you will "have a listen"?

 

I had seen the eye pattern before, in one of the previous topics about the Regen if I remember correctly, possibly originating from Pinkfishmedia.

I am curious about how the Regen can improve data transfer and consequently D/A performance.

Listening won't be of much use.

[semente]

4 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Could you lend it to Semente - he's looking for a plaything!

 

Does it vibrate?

[kumakuma]

22 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Jud - If Swenson wants to be a big boy audio engineer, which he was not in his day job, then he needs to have the proper equipment for audio engineering and measurement, plus an adequate understanding of audio measurement. 

 

How many commercial audio products have you designed?

[mmerrill99]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

 

I had seen the eye pattern before, in one of the previous topics about the Regen if I remember correctly, possibly originating from Pinkfishmedia.

I am curious about how the Regen can improve data transfer and consequently D/A performance.

Listening won't be of much use.

You stated you wished to see measurements before you would "have a listen" - I asked you what specific measurements you wished to see which you will understand. Care to answer that?

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

How many commercial audio products have you designed?

 

Most likely zero and somehow he makes a good point.

[mmerrill99]

4 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Does it vibrate?

No but I'm sure you'll get some pleasure from looking at two sinewave peaks

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Does it vibrate?

 

Whoa!

[Fitzcaraldo215]

5 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

How many commercial audio products have you designed?

Zero, and you?  I am not a plumber or a carpenter either, but I think I understand what they need to have in their toolkit.

[mmerrill99]

7 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Zero, and you?  I am not a plumber or a carpenter either, but I think I understand what they need to have in their toolkit.

A glass hammer & a bucket of steam?

[kumakuma]

11 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Most likely zero and somehow he makes a good point.

6 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Zero, and you?  I am not a plumber or a carpenter either, but I think I understand what they need to have in their toolkit.

 

Zero as well but, unlike the two of you armchair quarterbacks, I'm not the one lecturing others on how to do their jobs or run their businesses. 

[plissken]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

Zero as well but, unlike the two of you armchair quarterbacks, I'm not the one lecturing others on how to do their jobs or run their business. 

 

I'm not lecturing. I've made a suggesting based on what I see for most other site: a site navigational footer.

 

I'm critiquing the creation approach of audio products by a firm that is doing so blindly.

[Daudio]

45 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

If Swenson wants to be a big boy audio engineer, which he was not... plus an adequate understanding of audio measurement... going off on flights of ...

 

For over the top assholery, I now, with great relief, throw you into my IGNORED USERS list !