Article: The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

[wwaldmanfan]

15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

This would have more resonance if you spelled "Juilliard" right.

 

Come on, there's no point in fighting about this. It's good that we all have freedom to choose what we want to listen to. Some folks say they hate bluegrass, and blues all sounds the same. Personally, those two musical genres are a huge part of my life. But who cares what I think? No one, and that's fine with me.

 

[Speed Racer]

If all you can come up is "rhythmic sophistication", you can keep it......

 

Sorry, rap/Hip-Hop sucks as far as I am concerned. No amount of "rhythmic sophistication" is going to make it any better. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Come on, there's no point in fighting about this. It's good that we all have freedom to choose what we want to listen to. Some folks say they hate bluegrass, and blues all sounds the same. Personally, those two musical genres are a huge part of my life. But who cares what I think? No one, and that's fine with me.

 

 

I don't disagree, but I find it strange how much dislike the rap genre bring out. 

 

I don't like ranchero music, but I'd never disparage it to a bunch of fans or even on a public forum. 

[wwaldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I don't disagree, but I find it strange how much dislike the rap genre bring out. 

 

I don't like ranchero music, but I'd never disparage it to a bunch of fans or even on a public forum. 

 

I think the biggest gripe about rap is not the lack of traditional musical content, but the anti-social messages in the lyrics. But, as has been pointed, much of the genre has evolved beyond that. Those of us that don't listen to it are not aware, or maybe can't appreciate that some artists just put this stuff out deliberately to challenge social norms.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I think the biggest gripe about rap is not the lack of traditional musical content, but the anti-social messages in the lyrics. But, as has been pointed, much of the genre has evolved beyond that. Those of us that don't listen to it are not aware, or maybe can't appreciate that some artists just put this stuff out deliberately to challenge social norms.

 

Agreed. 

 

I also think that many of the messages in music are the same since the beginning of time. It's more about who is saying it and how it's said (the delivery)

 

 

[89reksal]

I'm 60 years old with two kids that grew up listening to rap. I hated it. I used to tell them they called it rap because it was short for crap.

I heard Eminem's "Stan" (the version with Dido). Listening to this SONG totally changed my mind about rap. I guess "Stan" was my "gateway" song to rap. I may not like all the so-called rap, but I sure no longer consider it crap.

Before posting this I googled "Stan" and read on Wikipedia that Rolling Stone Magazine ranked "Stan" #296 in their list in "The 500 Greatest Songs of All Time". Not too bad.

 

 

 

[jhwalker]

22 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I think the biggest gripe about rap is not the lack of traditional musical content, but the anti-social messages in the lyrics. But, as has been pointed, much of the genre has evolved beyond that. Those of us that don't listen to it are not aware, or maybe can't appreciate that some artists just put this stuff out deliberately to challenge social norms.

 

For me personally, this is not true.

 

As I'm a classical singer myself, I hate to admit this but . . . I don't listen to lyrics.  Like, at all.  There are many songs I've liked for years but I have no idea what they are actually about!  LOL

 

So it's not the lyrics I find offensive, I just don't like the nature of the music.  I don't like spoken words (vs. sung), I don't like the repetitive beats and the artificial "drum machine" / programmed music, etc.  It's just not my thing - in fact, it actively irritates me and I avoid it wherever possible.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

If all you can come up is "rhythmic sophistication", you can keep it......

 

Sorry, rap/Hip-Hop sucks as far as I am concerned. No amount of "rhythmic sophistication" is going to make it any better. 

 

And that's great.  No problem at all.  My only discussion is with folks who think there's no musical talent there.  Lots of folks don't like opera, but I never saw anyone refer to Pavarotti as a no-talent hack.  So the only distinction I'm making is between what we don't like (all well and good) and what takes musical imagination and talent to create (which includes even stuff we don't like).

[Jud]

33 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

I don't like the repetitive beats

 

It's not like bluegrass has repetitive beats or anything.    (Just teasing.)

[Jud]

1 hour ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Come on, there's no point in fighting about this. It's good that we all have freedom to choose what we want to listen to. Some folks say they hate bluegrass, and blues all sounds the same. Personally, those two musical genres are a huge part of my life. But who cares what I think? No one, and that's fine with me.

 

 

Completely agree.  I have just always loved irony, and someone saying this isn't what they teach at "Julliard" struck me the same way (though certainly not in the same ironical league) as when a guy told one of my Facebook friends that my friend would come out second best in a battle of "witts" with him.

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, ShawnC said:

Don't let the cast of Hamilton hear this.  

 

We must all consider what would result if the favorite president of our Orange Overlord was to have a hip-hop musical written about him.

[ShawnC]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

We must all consider what would result if the favorite president of our Orange Overlord was to have a hip-hop musical written about him.

Maybe Henry Rollins would write a poetry/rap version, full of angst of course.

[Poncho]

Never imagined you writing about rap. I think rap is a genuine form of expression that utilizes music and grooves as a vehicle to deliver. I´ts not music in the traditional sense that we may know it to be, but some artists do innovate.

 

I always thought of Peter Tosh´s rambling in the middle of Bob Marley´s song "Get up, Stand up", as one of the very first examples of what would later be known as rap.

 

Thanks again Gilbert for challenging us with another great article.

 

Saludos

[DRB100]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Completely agree.  I have just always loved irony, and someone saying this isn't what they teach at "Julliard" struck me the same way (though certainly not in the same ironical league) as when a guy told one of my Facebook friends that my friend would come out second best in a battle of "witts" with him.

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

It's not like bluegrass has repetitive beats or anything.    (Just teasing.)

 

I attended a bluegrass concert a long time ago, I wouldn't say it's my first choice of music, but if the musicians are proficient, I don't see anything wrong with bluegrass. It's not an easy music form to perform, it requires a lot of proficiency to perform it.  I don't know which bluegrass CD's are the go to CD's to obtain, but I won't mind owning them to listen to.  I'm sure they sound great on a good system.  I look at the level of musicianship in most of what I enjoy. I personally don't gravitate towards music that has a lot of anger in it.  The hard core metal and rap are the biggies I stay away from. Why listen to someone else's anger issues? That doesn't make sense to me. I actually stayed away from a lot of the rock music during the 70's as I was listening more to the fusion bands, which don't have vocals. They were all classically trained jazz musicians that mixed many music forms together so that was of interest to me.  Most of the concerts had musicians in the audience instead of the typical pop crowd.   :-)

[DRB100]

1 hour ago, ShawnC said:

Maybe Henry Rollins would write a poetry/rap version, full of angst of course.

Why don't you come up with your own?  Why wait for someone else?   Just learn how to throw a bunch of swear words, Ebonics and make it rhyme and buy a Roland drum machine and press Hip Hop Groove # 1 or #2.   And you can stick some Yo, Yo Baby's and some Mutherfuckas, etc. and spice it up with other colorful metaphors.  If you've listened to Nursery Rhymes, that helps.  It's the basic rhythm that rap uses. Triplets or 16th note Triplets.    Maybe it'll sell millions.  If you use more swear words, it's more likely to get more attention.   /s

 

If you want to sell it, then in order to boost your street credibility, you have to have an arrest record and/or been a gang member, so they know you're legit.  These rappers don't like phony wannabes, either you have street credibility or you don't.  BTW, that part's true for the hardcore rappers.

[Ralf11]

he'd have to use swear words from Jackson's time, and Southern mealey-mouthed words, not Ebonics.

[DRB100]

Musicians have a bio of who they've studied with, what college they attended, and what musicians/bands they've played in,

 

Rappers have rap sheets of what crimes they've convicted of.

 

Both are used to give them their credentials to get gigs and  recording contracts.

[DRB100]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

he'd have to use swear words from Jackson's time, and Southern mealey-mouthed words, not Ebonics.

No he wouldn't.  The kids today can't relate to words use during that time frame.  Remember, you have to figure out who your target audience is and what language they can relate to.

[ShawnC]

21 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

Why don't you come up with your own?  Why wait for someone else?  

If you want to sell it, then in order to boost your street credibility, you have to have an arrest record and/or been a gang member, so they know you're legit.  These rappers don't like phony wannabes, either you have street credibility or you don't.  BTW, that part's true for the hardcore rappers.

I did play in band, we were metal not rap.  As for the rest of the paragraph unfortunately I have some street cred, not that I'm proud of it, but there's been plenty of jail time in my past. 

 

Your point is well taken, you hate rap.  Join the haters who've already posted here.  I don't care for rap either but I don't dis it.  Just ignore it.  I think people are upset that rappers make millions and others work hard and make shit. Who cares.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, DRB100 said:

I actually stayed away from a lot of the rock music during the 70's as I was listening more to the fusion bands, which don't have vocals.

 

Again, not saying you have to like it, but:

 

- Who invented fusion?  Miles Davis.

 

- Who did Miles Davis, inventor of fusion and one of the musical giants of the century, then go on to work with for his final album?  That's right, a hip-hop artist.  Good enough musical chops for Miles, good enough for me.

 

[Speed Racer]

17 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Again, not saying you have to like it, but:

 

- Who invented fusion?  Miles Davis.

 

- Who did Miles Davis, inventor of fusion and one of the musical giants of the century, then go on to work with for his final album?  That's right, a hip-hop artist.  Good enough musical chops for Miles, good enough for me.

 

 

Well, let's no go overboard here. First of all, he wanted to capture some of the hip hop beats and use those in some new songs. That's a far cry from embracing Hip-Hop.

[DRB100]

9 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Again, not saying you have to like it, but:

 

- Who invented fusion?  Miles Davis.

 

- Who did Miles Davis, inventor of fusion and one of the musical giants of the century, then go on to work with for his final album?  That's right, a hip-hop artist.  Good enough musical chops for Miles, good enough for me.

 

And that wasn't his best work and why it's not in my collection of Miles albums.  His best work, according to the jazz critics was long before that.  I don't like it when people "sell out' to gain an audience, which is exactly what the record industry was doing.  They did it to Carlos Santana when they did remakes of their old classics in order to sell albums to the younger generation.  That's how they were trying to get an audience for Carlos.   They stuck some lame rapper to ruin the music.  I didn't buy that album either as I was content with the originals.  Record execs have a lot more control over this than you think, and when I disagree with what they do, I don't buy it.  

Sorry, but I am not some mindless idiot that always goes along with an artist does, regardless of who they are. I'm sure Miles didn't dig it because his favorite musicians weren't on the album.  They had moved on by then.  Miles kind of went downhill towards his later years.  Did he tour with them?  I don't think he did. Just like Carlos doesn't tour with rappers that might have been on an album.   They just do the album to try to open up their audience and that's all it is.

The record industry does this to some of the greats if they have to fulfill a recording contract and their album sales are dwindling. What they do is pressure the artist to do something that goes along with the kids are listening to, and that's why they'll do that crap, even to someone like Miles.  I have other interactions with musicians that had recording contracts where they basically told them they had to do something pop oriented otherwise they'd get dropped.  So, in order to keep food on the table, they had to play ball.

 

Herbie Hancock lost a LOT or credibility when he started putting out that Rocket album with his older fanbase of adults. I was one of the fans that lost respect because it was garbage, even though it was his best selling album, etc.  but it was his worst as far as I'm concerned.  It lacked "jazz" and sophistication, which is what I expect of Herbie.  And then what happened?  He dumped his RockIT band and went back to his jazz roots to get his audience back. He's done some work with various other artists, but I don't think he's going to work with a rapper.  

 

I will tell you this, it's going to be a cold day in hell to hear McLaughlin hire a rapper on his albums.  He doesn't bow to record label pressures, and one of the many reasons why he left the US and moved back to Europe.  Billy left the US because he didn't want to deal with the politics of the US music industry either.  Haven't you noticed that these US labels are putting out so much crap?  That started to happen in the late 70's and it has progressively gotten worse. The only labels that seem to still retain some dignity are labels like maybe ECM or these small labels out of Europe that still give these jazz musicians freedom to not try to be commercial. 

 

[Jud]

1 minute ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Well, let's no go overboard here. First of all, he wanted to capture some of the hip hop beats and use those in some new songs. That's a far cry from embracing Hip-Hop.

 

There's a guy rapping on the album, right?  Miles was planning on taking him on tour.

 

I saw Miles twice, and especially the second time, people were dancing their ass off.  He wasn't some withdrawn genius (though genius he was).  He wanted people, to use the title of one of his albums, to Get Up With It.

[DRB100]

5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Well, let's no go overboard here. First of all, he wanted to capture some of the hip hop beats and use those in some new songs. That's a far cry from embracing Hip-Hop.

I don't mind a jazz musician experimenting with a hip hop groove, it's when they hire rappers and DJ's is typically when jazz gets screwed up.

 

I've played hip hop grooves with jazz, but it got old really quick if there aren't any decent melody lines to along with a hip hop groove.  But that's not Hip hop. Depending on what's being done, it's more jazz with a hip hop groove. I heard a couple of things here and there that were acceptable, but still no rappers or DJ's in sight on what I felt was listenable.  

[Jud]

14 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

His best work, according to the jazz critics was long before that

 

Same jazz critics who deserted him in droves when he left Charlie Parker and be-bop to invent cool (one exception was Ralph Gleason, long time jazz critic and co-founder of Rolling Stone with Jann Wenner; this led to a life long friendship).  Same critics who then deserted him again when he left the cool movement he invented to start fusion.  Sensing a theme here?  Every time Miles moved to a new thing the critics hated it, until they looked back on it as a great classic period when they hated the next new thing he did.

 

How much credence do you suppose Miles gave these critics? How much do you suppose we should?

 

If you know anything at all about Miles and his personality, the idea of him bothering to "sell out" to anyone else's idea of what was good or commercial is pretty funny.