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Article: The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The


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3 hours ago, findog3103 said:

 

Many comments in this thread have my wondering "what?!" 

 

Ice-T said an interesting comment, and I have read similar articles about this topic, about the N word and how the black community wanted to take the word back from the white community using it as a term to demean. I don't always agree how rap uses the word but I understand this particular purpose. 

They use it because they are ignorant.  They use it in lyrics in a rap song because it sells.  If you have a rap song and there are two versions, the foul language version and the clean version. which one do kids want to listen to if they didn't have their parental control?   The found language version. Why?  Because kids want to listen to foul language in songs and that's what sells.   

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9 hours ago, firedog said:

And that isn't new. Popular music has mostly been like that for it's entire history.

 

In the golden age of jazz, the most popular artists weren't the ones we revere today - Ellington, Parker, etc. A lot of the most popular music was made by secondary artists just out to make a buck. 

 

In the late 50's and early 60's popular music was again mostly junk. Ever hear "Polka Dot Bikini"?

 

In the US, an actual artist like Buddy Holly didn't sell that well and after his death was mostly forgotten. A lot of American kids had no idea who he or other American performers (like Motown and other blues and R&B artists) were until the Beatles and the rest of the British invasion groups popularized their music in the US. 

 

And where do you think the idea of "june and spoon" lyrics came from? Not from the rap era. Most writers of popular lyrics haven't been Cole Porter like or even Dylanesque.

 

Even in the mid-60's to mid 70's, when popular music was supposedly "serious": the Monkees outsold the Beatles in 67, the animated Archies (many of the same players as the first Monkees album, I believe) were big sellers, and who can forget the deep and meaningful music made by groups like "Three Dog Night"?

 

I actually like some of that music, but let's stop pretending that popular music has mostly been some high level art form until rap and hip-hop came along. 

 

by Definition, art music is music that's not intended to be commercially marketed to sell albums.   Pop music is created to be commercially successful.  Those are the two extremes and then there is different levels in between.  To sell albums they have to figure out what sells.  With Rap, it's vulgar lyrics is what sells.  Two Live Crew started that trend In the beginning with their rap version of Doo Wah Diddy.  

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23 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I used to read Shakespeare because of the foul language and I still love it

 

Foul language?   So, how many times are the words "nigga, Bitch, and motherfucker used"?  Maybe you're reading the Ebonics version.  :-)

 

It's also using a form of English that's not really spoken in daily conversations anymore.   It's using basically a dead version of English.   Hopefully Ebonics will become a dead language, unfortunately it's becoming popular amongst the kids that are being brainwashed by Rappers as these kids idolize them.  Some of these kids will grow out of it, some won't. but many will end up probably getting into gangs, dealing drugs, guns or becoming a pimp like Snoop Dogg,  and many will end up going to jail.  Isn't that what gives these rappers street credibility?

 

 

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Is anyone else needing more clarification on DRB100's point of view on rap, Ebonics, urban youth culture, music theory and education?

I think this horse has been beaten dead for weeks. Weeks.

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16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

he appears unacquainted with Shakespeare (or the christian bible)

 

maybe we can move on to more devil music.... like Funk

 

I studied Shakespeare in college and high school. It's been a while since that was a long time ago. But the so-called bad language aren't the modern swear words that people associate.  They might have been foul language to those of that period of time.  Most, if not all, of the foul language in Shakespeare aren't even commonly used words today.  So you're comparison isn't really holding much water to me.

 

Name the bad words in Shakespeare since you are so familiar with it and let's see if they are even used in modern English.

 

what's the Christian Bible got to do with anything?  It's just a useless book used to brainwash people into a religious cult.   Not my thing.   Religions were originally meant to control people and they tend to promote racism and they many times lead to wars. 

 

And isn't alcohol the Devil's milk and isn't alcoholic beverages used in many religions like Christianity?  They do drink red wine to represent the blood of Christ. Right? 


Funk is the devil's music?  I haven't heard that one.  And I"m hoping you can show some valid proof to that. Right?

 

The music itself isn't. Maybe some of the lyrics but then again it would depend on what lyrics you are speaking of.  That's why one has to be careful what they listen 

 

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15 hours ago, DRB100 said:

 

by Definition, art music is music that's not intended to be commercially marketed to sell albums.   Pop music is created to be commercially successful.  Those are the two extremes and then there is different levels in between.  To sell albums they have to figure out what sells.  With Rap, it's vulgar lyrics is what sells.  Two Live Crew started that trend In the beginning with their rap version of Doo Wah Diddy.  

You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

 

I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

 

Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

 

As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

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8 hours ago, firedog said:

You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

 

I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

 

Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

 

As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

 

I was just mentioning the definition of Art based music and pop based music based on one definition that I have read.  So, I didn't make up the definition.  I also did NOT mention Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, or the Beatles as not trying to be commercial.  I also mentioned that there are varying levels in between these two extremes because there are going to be some bands that are trying to put some artistic integrity AND to be commercially successful at the same time, but they will lean more towards one side vs the other. 


Duke Ellington, in his peak years he was pop music back then, but by today's standards? NO.  the kids aren't lining up to buy his music.  His music doesn't sell that well and it doesn't get a lot of radio attention because there aren't exactly a lot of jazz stations around anymore to play it.  

 

Charlie Parker?  most of the kids growing up never even heard of Charlie Parker either.  Only the kids that study/listen to jazz are the ones that have heard of him.  I wouldn't say that Be Bop was commercial pop music, it's definitely more artistic in nature.  But If you are one of these argumentative types and you want to argue this, go right ahead.  I just personally feel that most of Charlie Parker's stuff leaned far more towards the artistic side than "pop".  There might be one or two examples of more "Pop" oriented, but those would be anomalies. 

 

The Beatles?  Their first few albums were totally commercial pop when they were REMAKING other rock hits and songs like I Wanna Hold Your Hand.   As they aged and matured, they leaned more "artistic" in their approach, especially with Sargent Pepper's, but George Martin was the reason for Sargent Pepper's being what it was since he wrote the scores for the brass, woodwind, stringed and reed instruments.  He, I believe, played some obscure instruments and it was his production techniques he was experimenting with.  So, George Martin was the artistic one from that sense.  Yes, the Beatles ware also trying to be more artistic rather than singing some teeny bobber song I Wanna Hold Your Hand music.

 

Instrumental music, by nature is TYPICALLY more artistic than "POP".  Only a couple of instrumentals have ever hit the top Ten on the "POP" charts.   

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, firedog said:

You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

 

I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

 

Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

 

As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

You and Chris have the same problem. You don't read my comments very well.  Re-READ my comment word for word and see where you completely screwed up and dug your own hole in the ground.  Now, if you want to be a man and apologize, I might accept that, if your apology is sincere, if not, then that's because you aren't man enough to apologize.

 

I didn't mention those three names specifically. did I?   

 

I wrote that there is ART music and POP music and a brief definition.  Now, if you want a more complete definition, then got to WikiPedia which has a VERY lengthy discussion on the differences.  Or you can go to another site that you feel has a better definition of ART music vs POP music.    They site jazz as being Art music, however there are some forms of jazz that fall into the POP category.

 

But again, I didn't mention anyone specifically, however I did mention that for the rap industry, foul language is what helps them sell albums.  If you look up most of the rappers that have BOTH a clean version AND an explicit language version, the clean version typically doesn't sell as well as the foul language version.

 

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3 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

You and Chris have the same problem. You don't read my comments very well.  Re-READ my comment word for word and see where you completely screwed up and dug your own hole in the ground.  Now, if you want to be a man and apologize, I might accept that, if your apology is sincere, if not, then that's because you aren't man enough to apologize.

 

@firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

 

Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

@firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

 

Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

 

 

They are based on my opinion which comes from facts.  Now, we can argue a specific song/recording all day long, I don't have a problem with that and we can end up both being right or wrong and have a different opinion.  But I was just giving a brief definition based on reading what the actual terms mean from various definitions I have read that are formulated from musicologists.  Obviously I'm not gong to write a 10 page desertation on the differences in  Art  based music and Pop based music and I THOUGHT that everyone hear is old enough, and mature enough to have looked up the definition of each to understand what I said, which was a VERY brief definition.   

 

Yeah, I'll forgive those that apologize.   Just say the words "I'm sorry. I was wrong" and mean it.   Next time read the words carefully and if you have a different position, then clarify your different position.  

 

 

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38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

@firedog and I aren't worthy. We would be forever indebted to you if you accepted an apology on your terms. 

 

Come on Dr. You write words as if they are facts rather than your opinion. I think you may learn quite a bit talking to some of us who you classify as clueless. 

 

 

Also, I have read the definitions of the word musician from many different sources,  Dictionaries, music dictionaries, from musicologist, music professors from reputable music colleges and there are some slight differences in their definitions of the word musician.  I then take all of that into consideration to formulate MY opinion which is largely based on definitions of the word musician.  And I have come to the conclusion that rappers aren't musicians, UNLESS they can display a competent level of proficiency by playing a musical instrument or singing.  Also, by the definitions I have read about rapping, they categorize it falling in between singing and poetry but it's NEITHER.

 

So the Poetry Society doesn't give any of these rappers credit for being a poet.  At least not that I've seen.    Go to the Poetry Society of America and see if any rapper has been given praise for their "POETRY".  I would think that the Poetry Society of America knows what poetry is and isn't as they are the experts in that area of expertise.  Right?    If you do, let me know, I haven't seen any.  Yeah, like they are going to give 2 Live Crew attention from the Poetry Society of America. Hell has to not only freeze over, but a lot of other impossible events have to take place before that happens.  :-)

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On 7/7/2017 at 11:05 PM, DRB100 said:

That's what I mean. Immature people buy music because of the foul language and you still love it?   Sounds like you have haven't matured a day since you were a kid.

 

Do you know what a ManChild?  it's a grown man with the mentality of an immature child.  That's what these rappers are.  They are grown men that never grew up maturity wise and they promote the same mentality.  You've just been brainwashed as they were your baby sitters, in a way.

 

Your alternative facts from which you base your opinion. 

 

 

On 7/8/2017 at 9:53 AM, DRB100 said:

I'm sorry but the white community, for the most part, stopped using that word a long freaking time ago.  In fact, I don't believe I heard it from a white person since the early 70's, but it was already being frowned upon where I lived.

 

"Whites (including Hispanics who identify as White) constitute the majority, with a total of about 246,660,710, or 77.35% of the population as of 2014. Non-Hispanic Whites totaled about 197,870,516, or 62.06% of the U.S. population."

 

Your comments about "the white community" are pretty laughable when considering my facts written above. How you can speak about a community of ~200,000,000 with respect to using the N word is beyond me. I think, you think, you know more than you do and you're showing it again and again. 

 

 

 

 

On 7/8/2017 at 10:49 AM, DRB100 said:

They use it because they are ignorant.  They use it in lyrics in a rap song because it sells.  If you have a rap song and there are two versions, the foul language version and the clean version. which one do kids want to listen to if they didn't have their parental control?   The found language version. Why?  Because kids want to listen to foul language in songs and that's what sells.   

 

Alternative facts used to develop your opinions. 

 

I get the sense you haven't stepped foot in any of the communities about which you talk. I'd say you're more ignorant about them than they are about you.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

Also, I have read the definitions of the word musician from many different sources,  Dictionaries, music dictionaries, from musicologist, music professors from reputable music colleges and there are some slight differences in their definitions of the word musician.  I then take all of that into consideration to formulate MY opinion which is largely based on definitions of the word musician.  And I have come to the conclusion that rappers aren't musicians, UNLESS they can display a competent level of proficiency by playing a musical instrument or singing.  Also, by the definitions I have read about rapping, they categorize it falling in between singing and poetry but it's NEITHER.

 

So the Poetry Society doesn't give any of these rappers credit for being a poet.  At least not that I've seen.    Go to the Poetry Society of America and see if any rapper has been given praise for their "POETRY".  I would think that the Poetry Society of America knows what poetry is and isn't as they are the experts in that area of expertise.  Right?    If you do, let me know, I haven't seen any.  Yeah, like they are going to give 2 Live Crew attention from the Poetry Society of America. Hell has to not only freeze over, but a lot of other impossible events have to take place before that happens.  :-)

 

The reasons for not giving rappers (a huge class of people with many different skill sets) these credits may have nothing to do with the credibility of their art and personal talent.

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

The  Luminaries are rappers (or hip-hop music makers) who don't seem to use foul language - not I particularly care for rap or their music all that much...

 

Do you mean Luminaries to rappers that put out foul language rap?  

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

The reasons for not giving rappers (a huge class of people with many different skill sets) these credits may have nothing to do with the credibility of their art and personal talent.

I have to find credibility in the person before I look at what they've done to consider it art or having talent.  Musical talent?  NOPE.  They have to be a musician to prove that.   

I do admit that when I listen to the 2 live crew, I laugh uncontrollably because I think it's more comedy than it is music.  It's so stupid, it's entertaining in some ways, but I don't think of it as any serious music or them being musical.  Heck, they couldn't even make everything rhyme or have proper rhymes cadence, which makes stupid.  But there are kids that buy into it.

 

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