Article: The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

No, but my parents would speak Yiddish on a regular basis, an expressive patois spoken by a ghettoized minority.  A century after it was widely spoken, some of its words have been adopted into English.  Oddly, no one thinks this is the downfall of the language or the civilization.

Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

 

Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

[Jud]

48 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

I saw a country band with a violinist play at a local State Fair many years ago and they were from, I believe, Nashville, and damned if the violinist didn't throw in some Mahavishnu licks in a freaking country song.

 

There's "Open Country Joy" on "Birds of Fire," which I always loved, but these days I suppose we'd think of the quiet parts of that song more as Americana than country.  Yeah, I can definitely see a violinist getting into Jerry Goodman and picking up some Mahavishnu along the way.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

 

Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

 

Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

 

Yes, and I'm very conscious of the history of course.  But I did not want to leave the impression I was thinking of any of the anti-Ebonics feeling expressed here as racist.  Often folks are just bothered by the feeling of being very intentionally left out of other folks' conversations (ironic in itself since these patois languages of ghettoized or colonized people develop in circumstances where they are very intentionally left out of things).

[DRB100]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

First fusion jazz-rock? Probably John Handy and his band.  I think they were performing it live already in 65, but certainly in 66. 

He also did the record "Karuna Supeme" with Ali Abhar Khan in 75, probably the best Western-Indian music fusion record ever done.

 

 

Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

 

Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  

I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

 

 

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form

 

He made the rock/R&B charts with "Hard Work" in 1976.

[DRB100]

44 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

There's "Open Country Joy" on "Birds of Fire," which I always loved, but these days I suppose we'd think of the quiet parts of that song more as Americana than country.  Yeah, I can definitely see a violinist getting into Jerry Goodman and picking up some Mahavishnu along the way.

I was always trying to figure out what that song had during the beginning section and where it came from.   Americana wasn't really a name I had heard until much recently.

 

Go listen to the live versions that are on concertvault.com They have over 50 concerts available and they do things with their catalog on some nights that are just insane. Too bad they didn't have all of their concerts along with the later revisions of the band.  

 

Yeah, even the Dregs were kind of a Mahavishnu cover band before they went original.  remember them?  That's another great fusion band that came a little towards the tail end.  Jerry has been playing with them, which is cool.

[DRB100]

21 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

He made the rock/R&B charts with "Hard Work" in 1976.

But that wasn't a "rock song" as it was a R&B song.  

[DRB100]

49 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Yes, and I'm very conscious of the history of course.  But I did not want to leave the impression I was thinking of any of the anti-Ebonics feeling expressed here as racist.  Often folks are just bothered by the feeling of being very intentionally left out of other folks' conversations (ironic in itself since these patois languages of ghettoized or colonized people develop in circumstances where they are very intentionally left out of things).

It would be wrong to think of someone that's Anti-Ebonics as a racist when the words commonly used in Ebonics are racist words and we don't want them using them.  See how that works?  

Look at Dr. Dre. he was part of the band NWA.  N With an Attitude.  Right off the bat, he and the others in that group are telling the world, THEY ARE N's.  Clear as day. Their lyrics have that word commonly used throughout their lyrics and it's their normal word they use to refer to each other. So how exactly would someone like me be racist when THEY are the ones perpetrating a racist word onto themselves? I just would like them to stop using that language, stop rapping and then learn the English language and instead of rapping a bunch of silly stuff, learn how to sing, learn how to play a musical instrument and figure out how to remove the negativity surrounding rap and become people that can play music with some actual musical talent.  Otherwise, it's never going to stop and it's going to be a bigger problem.

 

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

But that wasn't a "rock song" as it was a R&B song.  

 

In the words of Candidate Reagan, "There you go again!"   Categorizing something as exclusively one thing (R&B) versus another (popular or rock music), I mean.  The Pittsburgh and Philly radio stations I heard it on that year weren't "R&B" stations, they were "rock" stations.  Basically people just liked the music.  If you wanted to live in the world of categories, you could call it a "crossover" hit.

[Jud]

24 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

It would be wrong to think of someone that's Anti-Ebonics as a racist when the words commonly used in Ebonics are racist words and we don't want them using them.  See how that works?  

Look at Dr. Dre. he was part of the band NWA.  N With an Attitude.  Right off the bat, he and the others in that group are telling the world, THEY ARE N's.  Clear as day. Their lyrics have that word commonly used throughout their lyrics and it's their normal word they use to refer to each other. So how exactly would someone like me be racist when THEY are the ones perpetrating a racist word onto themselves? I just would like them to stop using that language, stop rapping and then learn the English language and instead of rapping a bunch of silly stuff, learn how to sing, learn how to play a musical instrument and figure out how to remove the negativity surrounding rap and become people that can play music with some actual musical talent.  Otherwise, it's never going to stop and it's going to be a bigger problem.

 

 

As anyone who grew up Jewish like me can tell you (and as it's easy enough to understand even if you didn't), using those sorts of terms "in the group" is a whole different ballgame in terms of intent and effect from some outsider using them.  Same as "White men can't dance" is funny and a little defiant when used by the minority, but "Black people sure can dance!" isn't when used by the majority.

 

Edit: Like in "Annie Hall" when Woody Allen was preparing to convert to Christianity and brought home a little shopping bag with Hellman's mayonnaise and Wonder Bread, and all the Jews in the audience are cracking up and the Christians are looking around going "What?  What's funny?"

[wwaldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

As anyone who grew up Jewish like me can tell you (and as it's easy enough to understand even if you didn't), using those sorts of terms "in the group" is a whole different ballgame in terms of intent and effect from some outsider using them.  Same as "White men can't dance" is funny and a little defiant when used by the minority, but "Black people sure can dance!" isn't when used by the majority.

 

If blacks want to call each other n_ _ _ ers in the privacy of their own homes, who cares? But, putting it out all over the media and the airwaves ad nauseum as a badge of honor, and then going apoplectic if one non-black utters the word is hypocritical and counter-productive. What is a parent supposed to teach their kids about this issue?

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

If blacks want to call each other n_ _ _ ers in the privacy of their own homes, who cares? But, putting it out all over the media and the airwaves ad nauseum as a badge of honor, and then going apoplectic if one non-black utters the word is hypocritical and counter-productive. What is a parent supposed to teach their kids about this issue?

 

Wait, you mean non-blacks are listening to this stuff?

 

Re parents:  When I was 5, other kids at school taught me "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe."  But instead of "Catch a tiger by the toe," it was "Catch a n___er by the toe."  Of course I had no idea what the word meant.  My mom heard me repeating this at home, and she very calmly told me that word was a bad word and I should never say it again.  That's the one and only time she ever said anything to me about bad language, so it's stuck in my memory all this time.  So I never have said it again.  What other folks want to say is up to them.

 

I think it's not very complicated to explain there are words some people can say to each other but you shouldn't say to them, and not even very complicated to talk a little about why, if you want to do that.

[rando]

7 hours ago, DRB100 said:

and they weren't doing it to put out an album to sell it and call it music, now did they?   But I'm sure they weren't using Ebonics, that's for sure.  They probably spoke the same language, right?  Well, if rappers want to sit in a room insulting each other using Ebonics, be my guest, and do it when I'm not around to hear it.. 

 

But to put it out on an album and to try to pass it off as music to make money?  NOPE.   They didn't do that.   Good try.  I'll give you an A for effort but an F for failure to understand the difference.


See how your attempt has failed?  Try again. maybe your second attempt with be better, but please THINK things through.  OK?

 

My response had no awareness nor instructive intent where the virtual persona "you" is involved.  

 

This is now reaching to pages of effluent dialogue overwhelming any attempt at interruption by erstwhile less embattled members.  Great job you two!

[wwaldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Wait, you mean non-blacks are listening to this stuff?

 

Re parents:  When I was 5, other kids at school taught me "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe."  But instead of "Catch a tiger by the toe," it was "Catch a n___er by the toe."  Of course I had no idea what the word meant.  My mom heard me repeating this at home, and she very calmly told me that word was a bad word and I should never say it again.  That's the one and only time she ever said anything to me about bad language, so it's stuck in my memory all this time.  So I never have said it again.  What other folks want to say is up to them.

 

I think it's not very complicated to explain there are words some people can say to each other but you shouldn't say to them, and not even very complicated to talk a little about why, if you want to do that.

 

It's more complicated now. When we were children, blacks did not refer to each other that way, at least not in public. Everyone else that used that term were genuine racists.

Today, a confusing double-standard exists. It is so pervasive in popular culture that kids hear it everywhere, especially in music and films. I'd hate to be a white kid who "accidently" says that word within earshot of blacks.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

It's more complicated now. When we were children, blacks did not refer to each other that way, at least not in public. Everyone else that used that term were genuine racists.

Today, a confusing double-standard exists. It is so pervasive in popular culture that kids hear it everywhere, especially in music and films. I'd hate to be a white kid who "accidently" says that word within earshot of blacks.

 

OK, call me a cock-eyed optimist, but I think this can be made really clear without a lot of trouble.

 

A little story from my dad:  He and my mom were traveling by boat from Miami to their honeymoon in Cuba (yep, that long ago).  He hadn't been away from Bethlehem, PA much in his life except to serve in the Army Air Corps in WWII, and being on a military base isn't really like living out among the population of a foreign country.  Also, their families had very little money, and he'd really splurged on this trip.  So there he was among the high rollers and probably showing that he felt out of place, when the boat captain walked up to him and said "Was macht a yid?"  (Non-literal translation from the Yiddish: "Are you a Jew?")  Made him feel completely comfortable and right at home, and he remembered it fondly the rest of his life.

 

Now imagine me, hypothetically, walking around in Germany with my wife (we've been there, but neither the following or anything like it happened), and some skinhead says to me, "Bist du Jude?"  Exactly the same question in a closely related language.  But if that happened, I would not feel comfortable or right at home, and I might remember it the rest of my life, but not fondly.  And you know exactly why my reaction would be completely opposite to what my father felt.

 

Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

[firedog]

3 hours ago, DRB100 said:

But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  

I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

 

 

Edited the post to take that out, as I realized my recollection was confused.

[DRB100]

37 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

OK, call me a cock-eyed optimist, but I think this can be made really clear without a lot of trouble.

 

A little story from my dad:  He and my mom were traveling by boat from Miami to their honeymoon in Cuba (yep, that long ago).  He hadn't been away from Bethlehem, PA much in his life except to serve in the Army Air Corps in WWII, and being on a military base isn't really like living out among the population of a foreign country.  Also, their families had very little money, and he'd really splurged on this trip.  So there he was among the high rollers and probably showing that he felt out of place, when the boat captain walked up to him and said "Was macht a yid?"  (Non-literal translation from the Yiddish: "Are you a Jew?")  Made him feel completely comfortable and right at home, and he remembered it fondly the rest of his life.

 

Now imagine me, hypothetically, walking around in Germany with my wife (we've been there, but neither the following or anything like it happened), and some skinhead says to me, "Bist du Jude?"  Exactly the same question in a closely related language.  But if that happened, I would not feel comfortable or right at home, and I might remember it the rest of my life, but not fondly.  And you know exactly why my reaction would be completely opposite to what my father felt.

 

Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

 

 

I'm tapping out.  I have no more energy to continue this discussion because I see no point in trying to convince those that will not listen or understand the damage Ebonics is doing not just to the black community but other others as well from the constant marketing through music, TV, movies, etc.  I won't change my position on it since It's already set. Ebonics as a replacement for English is stupid, it shows others that they are just not yet mature people that have been educated in the English language.  Hopefully those that use it daily will learn to move away from it and use English, when they realize that they need to grow up and mature.  Hopefully those that listen to Rap will also eventually grow out of it and move to something more meaningful in terms of appreciating musicians rather than con artists.   

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Two things.

 

1. People shouldn't take music literally just like they don't take movies literally. Sure, some of it is autobiographical, but entertainers play characters and sing about fantasy most of the time. Marshall Matthers neighbors in Detroit think he is the nicest guy in town. When he raps, he is the character of Eminem. If we come down hard on rappers for the content of their raps, we must also come down hard on movie actors who portray characters we see as "wrong."

 

 

2. Again, much of this is all about who is saying it and how it's delivered. 

 

For example, how about a statutory situation or gang rape:

 

 

 

 

[wwaldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

 

Good story. Reminds me of when I rode a train through East Germany on my honeymoon in 1984. Stormtroopers with submachine guns boarded the stopped train that night and asked me for my papers. Fortunately, my passport was not stamped, "Juden". I felt like I was in the Twlilght Zone, since, if you remember, I had relatives on Schindler's List.

 

However, your analogy is not convincing. I'd like to see you explain to your 12-year-old, after he watches a couple of Quentin Tarantino films starring Samuel L. Jackson, then listens to some Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, why he better never utter that word. Confused much?

[Jud]

Let's go back *really* far - over 600 years, in fact.

Quote

 

This Nicholas anon leet fle a fart,
As greet as it had been a thonder-dent,
That with the strook he was almoost yblent;
And he was redy with his iren hoot,
And Nicholas amydde the ers he smoot,
Of gooth the skyn an hande brede aboute,
The hoote kultour brende so his toute,

And for the smert he wende for to dye.
As he were wood, for wo he gan to crye,
"Help! Water! Water! Help for Goddes herte!"

 

 

This is one of the greatest classics of English literature, Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales," specifically "The Miller's Tale."  Alison is the wife of a carpenter, John.  She enjoys making love to Nicholas.  Nicholas gets John out of town by convincing him using the Bible that a great flood is coming, so he must travel to buy wood.  Absalom is a census-taker who lusts after Alison.  Earlier in the tale, when Absalom begs for a kiss in the dark, she turns her bare rear end to him, and there is a humorous description of Absalom being puzzled to find a beard on a woman.  Absalom has now come back, again at night in the dark, begging for another kiss, and this time he gets Nicholas's bare butt and a huge fart.  However, Absalom has vowed to take his revenge on Alison for the earlier slight and has borrowed a red-hot iron poker for the purpose.  This he uses to burn the bare rare end and associated parts, not knowing it's Nicholas's.  And at the end of this little section of the tale, we get Nicholas crying for water.   So - a religious man mocked as a simpleton and cuckold; much portrayal of lovemaking, lust and other bodily functions by persons not married to each other; intention of violently burning and maiming a woman with a hot iron poker; actual violent burning and maiming of a not-so-innocent bystander; all to great humorous effect.  Again, this is one of the great acknowledged classics of English literature.   Oh, did you also notice it is written rather unlike English today?   English is not some static, classic construct that people are constantly tearing down with errors, slang, and new forms of patois.  It is those very errors, slang, and patois that become tomorrow's language, just as 6 centuries of errors, slang and patois have resulted in the "proper English" we write and speak today being different from Chaucer's.   And neither is our society a classic, static construct that is deteriorating.  It too has always told tales of sex, violence and all our other preoccupations, and found broad humor in others' misfortunes.   So all the words that might infiltrate the language from rap (or "ebonics" if you want to call it that) have to get in line behind centuries of the same, exactly as rap's tales of violence, "bitches" and "hos," sex, etc., must do behind Chaucer and all the rest.  Since it's been going on ever since there *was* English (and of course before that, as English branched off from its Saxon and Norman-Latinate roots) and civilization, I don't think there's much call to start being overly concerned right now.

[Speed Racer]

38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

People shouldn't take music literally just like they don't take movies literally. Sure, some of it is autobiographical, but entertainers play characters and sing about fantasy most of the time. Marshall Matthers neighbors in Detroit think he is the nicest guy in town. When he raps, he is the character of Eminem. If we come down hard on rappers for the content of their raps, we must also come down hard on movie actors who portray characters we see as "wrong."

 

I completely disagree with this. The music of a people reflects much more closely on their feelings and attitudes than the movies they choose to attend.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

However, your analogy is not convincing. I'd like to see you explain to your 12-year-old, after he watches a couple of Quentin Tarantino films starring Samuel L. Jackson, then listens to some Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, why he better never utter that word.

 

It just takes a little effort and intellect to talk to one's child about this stuff. Movies and music are great escapes and great entertainment. Separating entertainment from the real world for one's children is a parent's.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I completely disagree with this. The music of a people reflects much more closely on their feelings and attitudes than the movies they choose to attend.

 

The largest consumers of rap music have traditionally been white kids from the suburbs. That included me back in the day. I listened the heck out of NWA's Straight Outta Compton. It reflected a totally different life from mine and at no time did I think it was good to kill cops or that the members of NWA were killing cops. I certainly listened to Fuck Tha Police many many times though.

 

 

[firedog]

Wow. Do some of you really think all other humans (excluding yourself, of course) are such simplistic mechanistic devices? One of the defining features of humans is that they can be very complex and live comfortably with seeming conrtradictions.

 

Never occur to someone that a person could have a PhD in English or linguistics and still enjoy the language in hip-hop? 

You don't have to use it in your personal communications to listen to it and enjoy it, and listening to it doesn't presuppose that one uses it personally in any inappropriate context. 

 

If there is a large population in the US that is unable to use standard English when needed, that's a failure of the greater social system and the educational system. It's not BECAUSE of the language in hip hop songs. I just heard a  YouTube  clip of Kendrick Lamar.  He's very capable of expressing himself coherently in standard English, and since he was being interviewed on a hip hop radio station, I'm sure his listening audience heard and understood his non-Ebonics.... 

 

BTW, agree wth Chris. Singers are telling stories and acting in a sense. I don't think the Beatles actually believed they lived in a Yellow Submarine, had a date with Lovely Rita, or were actually Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. 

[Speed Racer]

46 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

The largest consumers of rap music have traditionally been white kids from the suburbs. That included me back in the day. I listened the heck out of NWA's Straight Outta Compton. It reflected a totally different life from mine and at no time did I think it was good to kill cops or that the members of NWA were killing cops. I certainly listened to Fuck Tha Police many many times though.

 

 

Considering the size of the white poplulation, why is that so hard to believe? And, what does that have to do with anything anyway?

 

It may reflect a life totally different than yours. But for the guys writing the words, and the community they come from, not so much. That's why the words are so vile.....it's how they actually think.