ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[ElviaCaprice]

2 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Alright gang.. theoretically which is the lesser evil:

A.  Powering both my SU-1 and IsoRegen with a single LPS-1

B. Powering my SU-1 with the LPS-1 and IsoRegen with my HDPlex linear power supply?

 

Once I get my IsoRegen I can test this out myself but until then I am really interested in hearing the theory why one approach could be better than the other.

AAAAAA, by far and away if you have enough amperage for the task.  HDPlex is great for noisy mobo, but outside of that, not so great impedance.

[ElviaCaprice]

Question:  If the ISO Regen GI is disabled, do I still need to feed the 5V vbus to the USB input of the ISO Regen?

[scan80269]

8 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Question:  If the ISO Regen GI is disabled, do I still need to feed the 5V vbus to the USB input of the ISO Regen?

John S. already answered earlier in this thread.  The ISO REGEN needs 5V Vbus to power the upstream side of the isolator chip inside.  Without this 5V Vbus the data connection between upstream and downstream side will be broken, so 5V Vbus must run from the upstream device into the ISO REGEN.  This is true regardless of the position of the GI switch.

 

[ElviaCaprice]

7 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

John S. already answered earlier in this thread.  The ISO REGEN needs 5V Vbus to power the upstream side of the isolator chip inside.  Without this 5V Vbus the data connection between upstream and downstream side will be broken, so 5V Vbus must run from the upstream device into the ISO REGEN.  This is true regardless of the position of the GI switch.

 

ty, Scan

[JohnSwenson]

16 hours ago, rickca said:

Alex, you said that when you and John evaluated the Crystek CCHD-575, you quickly decided it was well worth using in the ISO REGEN.

 

Have you experimented with more expensive clocks?  I'm trying to understand whether there's a point of diminishing returns even if you had no cost constraints.   

No, we have not tried better clocks than the 575, the next step up in lower phase noise needs an OCXO. Note that inexpensive OCXOs do NOT have lower phase noise than the 575, you have to go to very expensive OCXOs to better it. And it is not just the cost of the OCXO itself. An OCXO takes a lot of power to run the oven and other circuitry, this will also add cost to the system. With the right OCXO we can probably still use the LPS-1 to power the board, but then you would have a very hard time powering anything else from the same one.

 

Both Alex and I are very much interested in producing items that are very high performance but still low enough in cost that a fairly large number of people can afford them. This is one of those cases where my gut feeling here is that spending the money on a better clock will give better results in a DAC rather than in an upstream device.

 

John S.

[BigGuy]

Saw in the ISO REGEN tech description that there is a custom hard USB A->B adapter to mitigate cable issues.

Can you provide a bit more insight on what this adapter does?

Can it be purchased separately?

THANKS.

[rickca]

11 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

This is one of those cases where my gut feeling here is that spending the money on a better clock will give better results in a DAC rather than in an upstream device.

Thank you, John.  I kind of expected that the next step up would be considerably more expensive.

[audio.bill]

49 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Saw in the ISO REGEN tech description that there is a custom hard USB A->B adapter to mitigate cable issues.

Can you provide a bit more insight on what this adapter does?

Can it be purchased separately?

THANKS.

Details here: https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uspcb-a-b-adapter

[zerung]

The IsoRegen uses a USB3  hub chip, I assume the input support USB3 too? Does this imply that USB cable should be USB3 for better sonic performance? 

 

[BigGuy]

40 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

Details here: https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uspcb-a-b-adapter

Thanks, audio.bill!  Missed that.

[Superdad]

55 minutes ago, zerung said:

The IsoRegen uses a USB3  hub chip, I assume the input support USB3 too? Does this imply that USB cable should be USB3 for better sonic performance? 

 

 

No.  Both jacks on the ISO REGEN are USB 2.0 only.  We chose to this particular modern and compatible USB 3.1 hub chip for its terrific signal integrity, and only the high-speed (USB 2.0) mode is used.  While there are a few DACs with a USB3 input jack, I know of none that use the SuperSpeed mode capability of 3.x.  High-speed (480Mbps) is more than enough for USB audio--even multi-channel high-res.

While there are interesting aspects of USB 3.x (2 uni-directional data paths), the market is not there yet with DACs.  The SuperSpeed aspects of 3.x also consumes a lot more power, and with that comes additional ground-plane noise, etc.

 

By the way, during development (in a very early round of boards--about 14-15 months ago) we ran pairs of "enhanced REGEN" boards--units that had the LT3042 regulators and other power network enhancements--one set used the venerable SMSC/Microchip USB 2.0 hub chip (as used on the original USB REGEN), the other with the 3.1 chip we had selected on the bench and from compatibility testing.  The boards were identical in every other way (and neither had the Crystek 575 clock because the 2.0 hub needs 24.0MHz and the 3.1 needs 25.0MHz which we did not have on hand). We wanted to go to a 3.x chip for other reasons (long term reliability and compatibility) even though they are twice the price ($2.50 instead of $1.25--big deal ), but my formats concern--and the reason we ran these board sets for comparison--was to not go backwards on SQ.  I was hoping they would at least sound the same.  I was not prepared for how much BETTER the 3.1 hub chip sounded!  In my system it was one of things you hear right from the first notes--and then immediately want to switch back because you can't believe there could be that much difference.

 

As mentioned and confirmed by them elsewhere,@lmitche and @Jud were the two people we sent these same boards to (we had had 6 of each made as I recall) in REGEN cases, and the cases just had tape with the random letters G and M on them.  I told them nothing of the difference between the units, or that there was only the one part difference.  A couple of days later they independently (without knowing the other's choice) both chose the version with the USB 3.1 hub chip as being the better sounding.

 

--Alex C.

[Jud]

58 minutes ago, Superdad said:

A couple of days later they independently (without knowing the other's choice) both chose the version with the USB 3.1 hub chip as being the better sounding.

 

To use the well worn cliche, the difference was not subtle.

[BigGuy]

As an owner of the SBooster VBus2 which also replaces short wires between the A&B connectors with a miniature circuit board, I recently became aware of planned release of a "new & improved" VBsu3 version which now also addresses USB ground loops.

 

Not interested in having a string of USB dongles daisy-chained between my source and DAC so wondered if the USPCB A>B did something similar to the VBus2?

 

I am using the ADNACO USB/Glass module  http://www.adnaco.com/products/s3a/  for galvanic isolation.  What are thoughts on the ISO REGEN adding anything to this approach?

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

To use the well worn cliche, the difference was not subtle.

Like night and day here.

[Jud]

24 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Not interested in having a string of USB dongles daisy-chained between my source and DAC so wondered if the USPCB A>B did something similar to the VBus2?

 

There's no filtering in the USPCB.  Its job is just to be a USB connector (on which you can switch off the power if you don't need it).  The Regen (and now the ISO Regen) regenerates clean(er) bus power itself.

[esmit]

28 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Like night and day here.

Please include a story about your wife/fiancée /significant other who is normally not interested in audio, but now immediately noticed a better sound ("as if a veil was lifted") ;-) ;-)

[Jud]

36 minutes ago, esmit said:

Please include a story about your wife/fiancée /significant other who is normally not interested in audio, but now immediately noticed a better sound ("as if a veil was lifted") ;-) ;-)

 

  It was definitely a heck of a lot better, though.  And both were better than the original Regen.

[asdf1000]

13 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No.  Both jacks on the ISO REGEN are USB 2.0 only.  We chose to this particular modern and compatible USB 3.1 hub chip for its terrific signal integrity, and only the high-speed (USB 2.0) mode is used.  

--Alex C.

 

Hi Alex, not sure if this is a stupid question but is the ISO REGEN output port BC1.2 compliant, for powering something downstream? Or is the output current limited to 0.5A? 

 

 

I know you don't want to discuss every product under the sun so you can ignore the following context, but I'm asking about an iFi iDSD Dac (charging the battery in Turbo mode can only be done with B1.2 compliant ports).

 

Cheers, Sean

 

[JohnSwenson]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi Alex, not sure if this is a stupid question but is the ISO REGEN output port BC1.2 compliant, for powering something downstream? Or is the output current limited to 0.5A? 

 

 

I know you don't want to discuss every product under the sun so you can ignore the following context, but I'm asking about an iFi iDSD Dac (charging the battery in Turbo mode can only be done with B1.2 compliant ports).

 

Cheers, Sean

 

The downstream port is setup as a standard port only, the VBUS regulator we are using cannot supply enough current to support a CDP port. If a device initiates the handshake to turn the port into a CDP port it will not get the answering signal from the ISO REGEN port.

 

The VBUS on the downstream port is actually current limited to 1A, so if a DAC tries to pull say 700mA it will work. It's not official spec, but I would rather give the DACs a little leeway rather than hard limiting to 500mA.

 

John S.

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, JohnSwenson said:

The downstream port is setup as a standard port only, the VBUS regulator we are using cannot supply enough current to support a CDP port. If a device initiates the handshake to turn the port into a CDP port it will not get the answering signal from the ISO REGEN port.

 

The VBUS on the downstream port is actually current limited to 1A, so if a DAC tries to pull say 700mA it will work. It's not official spec, but I would rather give the DACs a little leeway rather than hard limiting to 500mA.

 

John S.

 

Nice, thanks John.

[jamesg11]

13 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi Alex, not sure if this is a stupid question but is the ISO REGEN output port BC1.2 compliant, for powering something downstream? Or is the output current limited to 0.5A? 

 

 

I know you don't want to discuss every product under the sun so you can ignore the following context, but I'm asking about an iFi iDSD Dac (charging the battery in Turbo mode can only be done with B1.2 compliant ports).

 

Cheers, Sean

 

So Sean, how do you then intend to run the iDSD with the isoREGEN, given John's reply?

[Superdad]

14 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

So Sean, how do you then intend to run the iDSD with the isoREGEN, given John's reply?

 

Both the original USB REGEN and the new ISO REGEN power all bus-powered DACs and headphone amps just fine.  Our units offer up to 1A of 5VBUS current.  

 

I own an iDSD and have read all about its charging modes.  Given that the REGEN is powering/charging fine the DAC, I really don't understand the use-case for having a BC1.2 high-current hub for fast charging of the DAC.

 

Only thing I can thing of is if you are using the DAC's headphone amp in Turbo mode for big, insensitive headphones, and then unplug the DAC/HA from your desktop/hi-fi system to go portable with it and want the battery to still be full.    If that is what Sean is after, then no, our REGEN's will not satisfy him.  Nor would a standard, direct from PC USB VBUS feed.

 

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, jamesg11 said:

So Sean, how do you then intend to run the iDSD with the isoREGEN, given John's reply?

 

Hi mate, I'll still use the iDSD and it will still be able to use Turbo Mode like now with my USB REGEN, so it will still slowly discharge the internal battery but that's fine :-)

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

If that is what Sean is after, then no, our REGEN's will not satisfy him.

 

Hi Alex, I was quite satisfied with John's reply above. Sounds like you need another holiday ! 

 

All said in good fun of course. I need one too....

 

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Hi Alex, I was quite satisfied with John's reply above. Sounds like you need another holiday ! 

 

All said in good fun of course. I need one too....

 

 

Hi Sean: Sorry, did not mean to come off churlish.  Just wanted to be clear that this is not a shortcoming of our REGENs (and I rarely see high current hubs--certainly none in the audio space).  

 

So are you saying that in Turbo mode (for low efficiency headphones) that the battery of the iDSD drains faster than a standard USB VBUS line can charge it?  

 

I guess of course that would only be if you are running the iDSD in "battery mode" (where you have it powered on BEFORE you apply VBUS power).  Otherwise the DAC/HA is supposed to be powered by the bus (switched on after USB VBUS is applied).  Unless you are saying that VBUS power is not enough on its own to support Turbo mode (would seem to be poor design for a bus powered DAC/HA if it had to draw from both VBUS and battery to operate in a mode).

 

But you are right.  I would love another vacation about now!   Way too much to do for all foreseeable coming weeks...

 

Best,

--Alex C.