Suggestion: ban all cable debates

[mansr]

If an audiophile wants to spend half (or all) of their savings on audio cables is their problem. Rest assured that he enjoy more this than seeing higher numbers in their savings account.

 

If he believes that certain cables have better sound than others he has, that's true, a truth maybe just for him, but his truth.

 

If others with great technical knowledge (and / or very deaf) believe that this is impossible please remain in silence, it is not your problem. Let others enjoy their cables.

 

When already deeply entrenched believers debate the merits of this or that tweak, it's one thing. It's quite another thing when someone, perhaps with a limited budget, asks for honest advice only to be told all manner of fairy tales. In this situation, to deliberately withhold facts (not opinions) that might save the person significant money is not a very nice thing to do.

[mmerrill99]

When already deeply entrenched believers debate the merits of this or that tweak, it's one thing. It's quite another thing when someone, perhaps with a limited budget, asks for honest advice only to be told all manner of fairy tales. In this situation, to deliberately withhold facts (not opinions) that might save the person significant money is not a very nice thing to do.

Oh, please! Don't expect us to swallow the "saviour of the people" banner as the excuse for what is usually just another attempt at trying to show how superior you guys think you are & how pitiful you think others are. Please save us from this hypocrisy!

[mmerrill99]

IMO I believe that people think they are reporting their honest perceptions when, again IMO, they are reporting their sighted bias.

This is the usual BS that is trotted out. Everyone with half a brain in their head knows that a blind test that is fully controlled to deal with all biases is not within the reach of most people engaged in this hobby.

 

Go to a science forum dealing with perceptual testing & make your arguments there - they are not appropriate in a forum where postings of people's perceptions are what is the norm.

[mansr]

Oh, please! Don't expect us to swallow the "saviour of the people" banner as the excuse for what is usually just another attempt at trying to show how superior you guys think you are & how pitiful you think others are. Please save us from this hypocrisy!

If someone asks a question, and I know the answer and can spare the time, I'll reply. That's the entire damn purpose of sites like this one. If truthful answers are disallowed to protect the feelings of believers in magic, then we might as well close it down.

[Samuel T Cogley]

If an audiophile wants to spend half (or all) of their savings on audio cables is their problem. Rest assured that he enjoy more this than seeing higher numbers in their savings account.

 

If he believes that certain cables have better sound than others he has, that's true, a truth maybe just for him, but his truth.

 

If others with great technical knowledge (and / or very deaf) believe that this is impossible please remain in silence, it is not your problem. Let others enjoy their cables.

 

I personally do not like people who try to have everyone know their technical knowledge. There are too many books to find out, if anyone is interested in doing so.

 

Listening to music is an art and there is more merit to those who try to increase the enjoyment of that art than those who torture themselves and others by saying that what they have done to try to achieve it is wrong.

 

If challenging beliefs rooted in ego rather than objective facts causes some to not be able to "enjoy their cables", then perhaps that's an indication of a problem...

[mmerrill99]

If someone asks a question, and I know the answer and can spare the time, I'll reply. That's the entire damn purpose of sites like this one. If truthful answers are disallowed to protect the feelings of believers in magic, then we might as well close it down.

"I know the answer" - do you know the answer about people's perceptions or do you think you know the answer & your arrogance won't let you consider any other possibility?

[Jud]

In the thread that suggested banning the perpetual cable debates, cue the perpetual cable debate breaking out in 3, 2, 1,....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Zero.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Samuel T Cogley]

Zero

 

Yup. This whole thread was started as a troll.

[mansr]

This is your arrogance on display - "I know the answer" - do you r do you think you know the answer & your arrogance won't let you consider any other possibility?

Are you saying that nothing can be known with certainty? It's certainly your right (or is it?) to follow this philosophy.

[plissken]

"I know the answer" - do you know the answer about people's perceptions or do you think you know the answer & your arrogance won't let you consider any other possibility?

 

I know the answer when you hold out the blindfold. Perceptions are malleable with the simplest of instruments. In this case the proverbial blind fold.

[mmerrill99]

Are you saying that nothing can be known with certainty? It's certainly your right (or is it?) to follow this philosophy.

Nope, not saying that but the ultimate judge of audio production is our auditory perception, not technical measurements. Considering that auditory perception is not a settled area of science, I find it arrogant to say that technical measurements fully define auditory perception. If you don't find this to be the case then that's your right but I find it arrogant.

[Jud]

This, sadly, is why we can't have nice things.

 

 

In several threads I've pointed out that an audio engineer who advocates forcefully for measurement as the basis for audio design, Bruno Putzeys, has said there are measurable differences between cables that no new or exotic physics is required to explain, and has described a couple of these measurable differences. See, for example, http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/poll-where-are-you-along-cable-divide-27916/index15.html#post643154 (Putzeys designs amps and DACs, not cables.) I think he believes these measurable differences result in audible differences, though I do not know what if any work he has done to confirm this. It would be a good thing to ask him. Perhaps in the not too distant future, if indeed there are measurable differences that correspond to sound quality, consumers could have standardized measurements for cables as we do for amps, DACs, etc.

 

 

A really good audio engineer who doesn't believe in hocus pocus has suggested a possibility that, if it proves out, might help audiophiles. Consumers could base decisions on real information instead of "objectivist" or "subjectivist" dogma. But perhaps people are more worried their longstanding positions might be proved wrong (cables might have real sonic differences, but the cables that are best in these measurable characteristics may not be the ones audiophiles pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for) than about actually learning something new or helping fellow hobbyists.

 

 

Am I wrong?

[mmerrill99]

I know the answer when you hold out the blindfold. Perceptions are malleable with the simplest of instruments. In this case the proverbial blind fold.

You display little understanding of perception

[plissken]

You display little understanding of perception

 

Ok, I'll bite: What does taking the answer away from the subjective person about what is in situ have to do with what they have perceived as what they are hearing?

 

So let's assess my 'little understanding of perception'. If AQ makes an AUDIBLY superior cable, and you happen to get a counterfeit. WHY would you need to send it to them? Your system should either sound the same OR worse.

 

So the obvious answer to the question of "How do I tell if my cable is counterfeit?" is you SHOULD be able to HEAR the difference. Now if all it takes is the mere belief of the cable enhancing your enjoyment get the AQ off of eBay and knock yourself out.

 

 

If AQ's DBS system makes an AUDIBLE improvement vs non-DBS cables then WHY a battery indicator? You shouldn't need

because the cable should start sounding worse.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

If AQ makes an AUDIBLY superior cable, and you happen to get a counterfeit. WHY would you need to send it to them? Your system should either sound the same OR worse.

 

You send it to them so they can track down the manufacturer, see how the counterfeiting is being done and send you a real cable if possible. If something happens to the real cable, you are covered under the warranty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So the obvious answer to the question of "How do I tell if my cable is counterfeit?" is you SHOULD be able to HEAR the difference. Now if all it takes is the mere belief of the cable enhancing your enjoyment get the AQ off of eBay and knock yourself out.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33924[/ATTACH]

 

 

No matter the performance, you want to know your cable is real and covered under a warranty and has resale value. If you think something is slightly wrong with a cable, it's nice to check a "how to tell.." document.

 

 

 

 

If AQ's DBS system makes an AUDIBLE improvement vs non-DBS cables then WHY a battery indicator? You shouldn't need

because the cable should start sounding worse.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33925[/ATTACH]

 

The battery indicator may signal when the battery is getting low and needs replacement, not necessarily when it's totally gone. Also, when installing cables for a customer, an integrator or dealer who has many cables to install can easily check this way. If one cable among 20 in a system has a bad battery, and you can hear it somewhere in the system, it doesn't make sense to replace all twenty cables. Also, as a company selling products, you always sell what the customer wants. If a customer wants to know the status of the battery for sure, you put an indicator on the product. It's just good business.

[Samuel T Cogley]

This, sadly, is why we can't have nice things.

 

 

In several threads I've pointed out that an audio engineer who advocates forcefully for measurement as the basis for audio design, Bruno Putzeys, has said there are measurable differences between cables that no new or exotic physics is required to explain, and has described a couple of these measurable differences. See, for example, http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/poll-where-are-you-along-cable-divide-27916/index15.html#post643154 (Putzeys designs amps and DACs, not cables.) I think he believes these measurable differences result in audible differences, though I do not know what if any work he has done to confirm this. It would be a good thing to ask him. Perhaps in the not too distant future, if indeed there are measurable differences that correspond to sound quality, consumers could have standardized measurements for cables as we do for amps, DACs, etc.

 

 

A really good audio engineer who doesn't believe in hocus pocus has suggested a possibility that, if it proves out, might help audiophiles. Consumers could base decisions on real information instead of "objectivist" or "subjectivist" dogma. But perhaps people are more worried their longstanding positions might be proved wrong (cables might have real sonic differences, but the cables that are best in these measurable characteristics may not be the ones audiophiles pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for) than about actually learning something new or helping fellow hobbyists.

 

 

Am I wrong?

 

Any reasonable analysis of the "issues on both sides" that doesn't take into account consumerism and very high profit margins of boutique audio cables (digital and analog) is lacking IMHO.

 

I'm all for standardized measurements. I think the usual suspects (AQ, Nordost, et al) would fight them tooth and nail. And some people believe they know why they would fight those hypothetical standards. It's best to just leave it there.

 

I don't "worry" about being "proved wrong". Show me the hard data, and let me go and test myself to confirm the data, and I'm good. It's when I'm asked to give testimony more credibility than it's given in other venues that you start to lose me.

[plissken]

You send it to them so they can track down the manufacturer, see how the counterfeiting is being done and send you a real cable if possible. If something happens to the real cable, you are covered under the warranty.

 

You are missing the point. If I get a cable and it greatly improves my sound: Why would I think it counterfeit?

 

If I get a cable and it does nothing to improve my sound and send it to AQ for verification and it's the real deal...

 

No matter the performance, you want to know your cable is real and covered under a warranty and has resale value. If you think something is slightly wrong with a cable, it's nice to check a "how to tell.." document.

 

Again something would have to first SOUND a bit off. Something always precedes getting that kind of investigation going.

 

The battery indicator may signal when the battery is getting low and needs replacement, not necessarily when it's totally gone. Also, when installing cables for a customer, an integrator or dealer who has many cables to install can easily check this way. If one cable among 20 in a system has a bad battery, and you can hear it somewhere in the system, it doesn't make sense to replace all twenty cables. Also, as a company selling products, you always sell what the customer wants. If a customer wants to know the status of the battery for sure, you put an indicator on the product. It's just good business.

 

You got me there if an entire system is wired up with DBS :-) So I take it we could take two DBS cables one with and one with out batteries and you or someone else, even sighted, could state which had batteries and which didn't w/o using the indicator?

 

Your response does tell me that the battery makes a (could make) difference

[jabbr]

Am I wrong?

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head. No new physics need be invoked. There is literature in the area of "passive intermodulation distortion" which described non-linearities in passive components such as cables, connectors, resistors, capacitors etc.

 

That said: Bruno Putzeys etc. do not spend their waking hours investigating the best AC power cords because the ability of any change in power cord necessarily indicates a serious problem with the device's power supply or the power supply rejection ratio (PSRR) of the underlying circuit.

 

The flip side of this coin is that people change AC power cords "because they can"

[Ralf11]

How about banning any cable claim that does not use Maxwell's field equations??

 

As a Moderate, I am fine with either differential or integral mode (as long as they have separate bathrooms)

[The Computer Audiophile]

You are missing the point. If I get a cable and it greatly improves my sound: Why would I think it counterfeit?

 

Because it feels wrong or looks funny. The logo isn't exact. All signs of counterfeit items.

 

If I get a cable and it does nothing to improve my sound and send it to AQ for verification and it's the real deal...

 

 

 

Again something would have to first SOUND a bit off. Something always precedes getting that kind of investigation going.

 

I have no data, but I'm willing to bet most counterfeit products are identified by the look of the item, no matter what it does.

 

 

 

You got me there if an entire system is wired up with DBS :-) So I take it we could take two DBS cables one with and one with out batteries and you or someone else, even sighted, could state which had batteries and which didn't?

I just gave you reasons. There are many more as well. If you purchase a cable that has been on the shelf a long time and you want to know if the battery is good, it's easiest just to click the button. You're going after one potential ting and making it the sole thing.

[plissken]

 

I have no data, but I'm willing to bet most counterfeit products are identified by the look of the item, no matter what it does.

 

What can happen, and often does with outsourced manufacturing AQ orders 500 units. They produce 550. 500 goes to AQ the other 50 go to fleabay.

 

 

You're going after one potential ting and making it the sole thing.

 

Yes I am because there is irony in it. It's one of many permutations including testing the battery of a cable in system where I'm maintaining you should be able to hear that the battery died without visual aid.

[Jud]

The flip side of this coin is that people change AC power cords "because they can"

 

Yeah, I just described doing that with a USB cable upthread.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[adamdea]

Mr. President?

Vg

[mmerrill99]

If someone asks a question, and I know the answer and can spare the time, I'll reply. That's the entire damn purpose of sites like this one. If truthful answers are disallowed to protect the feelings of believers in magic, then we might as well close it down.

I haven't personally experienced the differences in cables that some report but I have heard changes with others so I don't believe I have all the answers. I have heard many saying that different USB cables couldn't possibly make any difference but they do. Is it magic? No, it's not - it's just that people who claim this are too lazy-minded to research & discover what might be at the bottom of change in sound. It might be far different to the reasons some put forth for the difference but that's no reason to dismiss it. You either have room for the possibility that there might be something to it or you are fixed in a position that allows no possible explanation.

 

Your framing of your own posts as "truthful answers" again shows an unshakeable arrogance in your belief that you are right.

 

Everyone has a line where they consider things has gone over into the realm of fantasy & this line is different for everyone so recognising one's own line as not being set in stone is probably a healthy approach & this is all that is being asked of those who seem so confident that their line is the "real boundary between truth & fiction"

[jhwalker]

Oh, please! Don't expect us to swallow the "saviour of the people" banner as the excuse for what is usually just another attempt at trying to show how superior you guys think you are & how pitiful you think others are. Please save us from this hypocrisy!

 

This is *exactly* why I participate in discussions about such things - I can't stand to see someone ripped off. I'm very tenderhearted - maybe that makes me "superior" or a hypocrite, but I genuinely am trying to help people. I find your comments very insulting.