Jump to content
IGNORED

Suggestion: ban all cable debates


Recommended Posts

I thought this was a safe space...or was.

 

It is possible to debate or express a contrary opinion without being rude.

 

Most people who debate stuff aren't being rude (or at least are not intending to be rude).

 

It is funny that the OP cited a thread I started as an example of such thought-crimes he would like to see banned. In this particular instance, I found a funny photo of some grotesque-looking cables. From what I could see, people on both "sides" of the debate (the "sides" are really more like a continuum, but that kind of nuance just doesn't play as well on right-wing talk radio in Peoria) thought it was funny, because it was so extreme (both in diameter and appearance). There wasn't anything being debated in that thread, as far as I could tell.

 

Some people just like to get all butt-hurt over next to nothing, and then cry for more administrative or governing intervention. (Strangely, these often tend to be the same folks ridiculing the delicate liberal snowflakes and their alleged need for trigger warnings and safe spaces. This is what passes for discourse in 2017 in the US I guess -- although the OP originates from elsewhere.)

Link to comment
Both of you guys make lots of valuable and interesting contributions, but IMHO these particular comments illustrate the problem of taking an audio discussion and making it about personalities.

 

Thanks.

 

Aside from just plain alienating reasonable members it has become increasingly hard to pick out useful material as so many threads degrade into personal attacks and trying to get in the last word. It is also less likely someone will ask a basic question or introduce a new idea for fear of attracting those who just seem to want to argue. The loss will be that CA will become marginalized from lack of open minds and experimentation.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

Link to comment
Most people who debate stuff aren't being rude (or at least are not intending to be rude).

 

It is funny that the OP cited a thread I started as an example of such thought-crimes he would like to see banned. In this particular instance, I found a funny photo of some grotesque-looking cables. From what I could see, people on both "sides" of the debate (the "sides" are really more like a continuum, but that kind of nuance just doesn't play as well on right-wing talk radio in Peoria) thought it was funny, because it was so extreme (both in diameter and appearance). There wasn't anything being debated in that thread, as far as I could tell.

 

Some people just like to get all butt-hurt over next to nothing, and then cry for more administrative or governing intervention. (Strangely, these often tend to be the same folks ridiculing the delicate liberal snowflakes and their alleged need for trigger warnings and safe spaces. This is what passes for discourse in 2017 in the US I guess -- although the OP originates from elsewhere.)

 

FYI. I loved the post about the giant cables...

 

We all originate from elsewhere...


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

Link to comment

When hi-fi dealers noticed the high profitability in selling audiophile and Monster cables it was the beginning of the end for hi-fi as we knew it. Cables cause endless confusion for new people so many quickly lose interest. Cables also cause a loss of credibility in dealers, magazines and bloggers. There is nowhere for a new person to go to get good information.

Link to comment
We don't seem to have any debates where one "side" says the laws of physics would have to be violated for one speaker to sound better than another. No one suggests that it is not possible for two well-made speakers to sound very different (unlike with various wires, files with identical checksums, and so forth). It is a fundamentally different sort of discussion, which really comes down to whether people think one speaker simply sounds better than another, or whether the price warrants the improvement, etc.

 

(I would much rather spend $5K upgrading my speakers than $5K on wire. With some careful shopping, I am pretty certain I could get a major and readily audible improvement in sound with better speakers, whereas I think the chances of improving my sound with more expensive (allegedly better) cables is extremely remote.)

 

Out of curiosity, how often have you seen someone suggesting 5k ought to be spent on wires vs speakers here on CA? I ask this as these sorts of examples seem to come up as if it is happening all of the time, or that there is some sort of peer pressure to spend big bucks on cabling from posters around here. From what I have seen, CA leans more towards Blue Jeans Cables than Nordhost, but I could be wrong.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
Out of curiosity, how often have you seen someone suggesting 5k ought to be spent on wires vs speakers here on CA? I ask this as these sorts of examples seem to come up as if it is happening all of the time, or that there is some sort of peer pressure to spend big bucks on cabling from posters around here. From what I have seen, CA leans more towards Blue Jeans Cables than Nordhost, but I could be wrong.

It happens with some regularity that people are advised to "upgrade" their power cord before anything else.

Link to comment
We should allow these threads. There is a generational/cultural divide amongst audiophiles: younger people with little disposable income vs older, wealthier people.

 

Older audiophiles are culturally less dogmatic about the world and desire better things. Younger audiophiles culturally reject things out of their reach, and so have to create and support a dogma in order to reject the upper end of the audiophile hobby. That's why some of us are continually frustrated by others who refuse to even listen to the difference between high-end gear and entry level stuff.

 

Making cable debate threads helps the younger audiophiles here support their dogma. It's a way for them to feel included as a sort of counter-culture within the community.

 

Sent from my LG-H820 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

 

I have been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to think of a good reply to this but so far all I can do is shake my head... I am pretty sure your attitude is what would keep younger audiophiles away from you, and this forum.

No electron left behind.

Link to comment
We don't seem to have any debates where one "side" says the laws of physics would have to be violated for one speaker to sound better than another. No one suggests that it is not possible for two well-made speakers to sound very different (unlike with various wires, files with identical checksums, and so forth). It is a fundamentally different sort of discussion, which really comes down to whether people think one speaker simply sounds better than another, or whether the price warrants the improvement, etc.

 

(I would much rather spend $5K upgrading my speakers than $5K on wire. With some careful shopping, I am pretty certain I could get a major and readily audible improvement in sound with better speakers, whereas I think the chances of improving my sound with more expensive (allegedly better) cables is extremely remote.)

 

Good and valid points.

 

Consider on the other hand someone like me: I already have speakers I like very much, purchased used for $2500, and am not much interested in changing (unless it would be to the Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT at nearly $14,000, which I could listen to until my wife found out and I was taken away in an ambulance).

 

Though certainly not what I would achieve with the Quatros, I thought (purely subjectively, of course) that I got a significant bump in sound quality by replacing my Audioquest Coffee USB cable with a Mapleshade USB cable at $135, about half the Coffee's price. The change was free, as I paid for the Mapleshade by selling the Coffee used. (Yes, this does mean I laid out nearly $300 for USB cables at the end of the day.)

 

I bought my DAC on sale for about $375, IIRC.

 

The next upgrades (after the first priority, getting our retirement home built and furnished and paying for the move), will very likely be to my laptop and desktop, which are 2009 and 2010 vintage, respectively, and somewhat limit the levels of upsampling I can do.

 

 

Edit: Actually, the next upgrade is likely to be purchase of a calibrated mic for about $80 and use of free REW software in association with finding the best location for the speakers in the new house.

 

 

The most expensive bits right now are the preamp and amp; if I ever bought or put together an nCore amp, then it would be the preamp alone.

 

I'm very happy with the system, or really, with the music.

 

Did I violate accepted wisdom about where to put most of the money in a system? Yep. But I love the music I'm listening to, and that's supposed to be the object as far as I can tell.

 

Did I possibly waste a couple of hundred bucks on cables? Sure, it's possible. But there's the old joke about the parents who approach a psychiatrist about their son, who thinks he's a chicken. Even when he says he's confident he can cure the boy, they're hesitant, and he asks why. "We like the eggs," says the father. So even if the improvement I think I'm hearing from a $135 cable is impossible, I guess I like the eggs. :)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
The tone of this forum is really dragged down by all these stupid debates. It seems as if some posters have nothing better to do than to start threads to sneer at their fellow audiophiles. I don't think they even think of other audiophiles as "fellow" audiophiles, sharing a common hobby. Rather, a target of derision to be harassed and bullied. This is a good example. What purpose do threads like these serve? How does it benefit the community? Does it do anything but boost the narcissistic tendencies of those who endlessly create such threads? And why is it that they are not satisfied with only creating one - they have to do it over and over again.

 

This forum is called computer audiophile. There are plenty of other forums where these people can go and scorn those whom they perceive are inferior to them. I think it is time to get this forum back on track - discussion of computer based audio.

 

 

Hi Keith - I certainly hear / read what you're saying / writing. However, I prefer to let adults be adults, when possible. For nearly 10 years, CA has gone through periods of divisive discussions and helpful discussions. It all comes out OK in the end. Nobody is killing puppies or saving babies here (or klingon puppies). Heavy handed moderation leads people to strange behavior. On the other hand, when moderation stands down, good people stand up.

 

I don't like the way some people comment here on the site. For example, @mansr has a tendency to leave a comment that says something like "you're wrong" or "BS" without helping other people understand why. On the other hand, he has offered a wealth of knowledge in many other threads. I don't blame him for not reinventing the wheel explaining his reasons all the time, but I'd prefer he did explain things.

 

On the same note, the thread you linked to about cables, is a thread that I like. I like to poke fun at the industry and myself at times. There is some good, light-hearted humor in that thread.

 

I think Just said it well here ->

 

 

I think a good point Keith_W raised is that many of us love to heartily debate and discuss, but since this is after all an audio forum, we should try as far as we can to have an audio discussion rather than score debating points or get into personal remarks. If we do a good job, someone reading the thread later should be able to get food for thought about audio from most of the comments, regardless of the particular viewpoints of the commenters.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
Both of you guys make lots of valuable and interesting contributions, but IMHO these particular comments illustrate the problem of taking an audio discussion and making it about personalities.

 

Not personalities, ideology. The OP staked out his position with the first post: ban debates. And this particular thread is not about audio. It's about the OP's lament that "other" forums have become "cable/DBT cesspools" and he doesn't want that to happen here. This is just an example of "concern trolling". And while he acknowledges the other end of the spectrum, "where they extol the merits of mysterious cable risers", he doesn't seem to have the same passion for opposition to that. There is no accompanying "cesspool" superlative or equivalent.

 

You can take me to task for my "tone", and I'll take that. But I've seen the OP's complaint far too often on too many other forums. He wants "cable believers" to not have to feel foolish, and is asking for a draconian solution. Such measures are certainly in place at other forums, as I mentioned above.

 

Again, I appreciate your attempt to assume the role of mediator. But this is not about personalities. It's about science vs. "don't make me feel stupid". YMMV, of course.

Link to comment
- discussion of computer based audio.

 

Well that seems to be of great issue since people that actually know how computer and data processing systems work are often at the receiving end of a 'shouting down' because the realities of how computers work run up against perceptions of how some archetypes of people think it should work.

 

The person that I want to listen to is the person that is intellectually honest enough to:

 

1. State under what conditions they would be willing to reassess their current held beliefs

 

2. Have enough faith in their ears to bias control the environment

 

But instead what is permitted:

 

Someone can say an entire companies line up is understood by the online audio community the world over to sound like crap. Then admit to never having heard the actual piece in question and then to add insult when called out for it have a small contingent not go after the obvious issue but the person that pointed out the incongruity of it all.

 

Here's the thing:

 

I want the endless cable debates to stop. I don't want them to stop via dictatorial powers but by the success or failure of someones ears only evaluation.

Link to comment
I don't like the way some people comment here on the site. For example, @mansr has a tendency to leave a comment that says something like "you're wrong" or "BS" without helping other people understand why.

 

That's usually after I've already given a more elaborate response two or three times and the person still persists in spouting variations of the same nonsense, whatever it might be. Maybe it's better to say nothing in those situations, but I really dislike seeing blatant misinformation stand uncontested.

Link to comment
That's usually after I've already given a more elaborate response two or three times and the person still persists in spouting variations of the same nonsense, whatever it might be. Maybe it's better to say nothing in those situations, but I really dislike seeing blatant misinformation stand uncontested.

 

 

You could I suppose refer people to your previous more elaborate response.

 

 

But there are very few of us here who cannot plead guilty to being cryptic every so often (though in my case the sin is more often in the other direction :) ).

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

Have (or develop) a thick skin and you will generally find visiting hobbyist/enthusiast web fora to be a much more enjoyable experience.

 

This forum is a veritable rainbows, sprinkles and kittens sort of place compared to the Jeep/skiing/rock climbing fora I frequent. Posters on those fora get spanked and mercilessly ridiculed for little or no reason on the regular, because... well, just because. After a while, you don't even mind or notice the rude behavior. In fact you sort of miss it when things get overly nice.

 

My suggestion (with peace, love and empathy)- suck it up and you will have more fun!

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

Link to comment
Have (or develop) a thick skin and you will generally find visiting hobbyist/enthusiast web fora to be a much more enjoyable experience.

 

This forum is a veritable rainbows, sprinkles and kittens sort of place compared to the Jeep/skiing/rock climbing fora I frequent. Posters on those fora get spanked and mercilessly ridiculed for little or no reason on the regular, because... well, just because. After a while, you don't even mind or notice the rude behavior. In fact you sort of miss it when things get overly nice.

 

My suggestion (with peace, love and empathy)- suck it up and you will have more fun!

 

With hat tip to wgscott, the master:

 

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
I have to disagree. If we remove debates then we are removing opinions and then there is really no reason to have a forum. We would be left with Chris' Blog. While I like Chris and am very thankful for what he has done, I've learned just as much from forum members.

A debate is when new points are made & the topic moves along a logical path with the hope of some understanding & progress in understanding being achieved (as if that's likely) - not the same point made over & over again by the same coterie. People here report their perceptions about what they perceive - those who haven't had this experience shouldn't feel the compunction to always deny others of their experience, IMO

Link to comment

If an audiophile wants to spend half (or all) of their savings on audio cables is their problem. Rest assured that he enjoy more this than seeing higher numbers in their savings account.

 

If he believes that certain cables have better sound than others he has, that's true, a truth maybe just for him, but his truth.

 

If others with great technical knowledge (and / or very deaf) believe that this is impossible please remain in silence, it is not your problem. Let others enjoy their cables.

 

I personally do not like people who try to have everyone know their technical knowledge. There are too many books to find out, if anyone is interested in doing so.

 

Listening to music is an art and there is more merit to those who try to increase the enjoyment of that art than those who torture themselves and others by saying that what they have done to try to achieve it is wrong.

 

Roch

Link to comment
People here report their perceptions about what they perceive - those who haven't had this experience shouldn't feel the compunction to always deny others of their experience, IMO

 

IMO I believe that people think they are reporting their honest perceptions when, again IMO, they are reporting their sighted bias.

Link to comment
When hi-fi dealers noticed the high profitability in selling audiophile and Monster cables it was the beginning of the end for hi-fi as we knew it. Cables cause endless confusion for new people so many quickly lose interest. Cables also cause a loss of credibility in dealers, magazines and bloggers. There is nowhere for a new person to go to get good information.

The good thing is that it makes it easy to identify the charlatans. Like if my doctor started promoting homeopathy or bloodletting.

Link to comment

In the thread that suggested banning the perpetual cable debates, cue the perpetual cable debate breaking out in 3, 2, 1,....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...