Suggestion: ban all cable debates

[STC]

Thanx. Sorry no "Thank you " button.

 

Thank you for clarifying. I thought Alan Shaw mentioned that you cannot defy law of physics and therefore the distortion can go upto 10%. Perhaps, he was talking measurements taken from 20Hz to 20kHz or I am mixing up 10 bit resolution with distortion.

 

What do you think about the distortion measurement here?

 

 

[esldude]

29 minutes ago, STC said:

Thanx. Sorry no "Thank you " button.

 

Thank you for clarifying. I thought Alan Shaw mentioned that you cannot defy law of physics and therefore the distortion can go upto 10%. Perhaps, he was talking measurements taken from 20Hz to 20kHz or I am mixing up 10 bit resolution with distortion.

 

What do you think about the distortion measurement here?

 

 

About to turn in here.  Will look at this tomorrow.

[Jud]

16 hours ago, esldude said:

Unfortunately colds are a virus.  Having previously had a Dr. who always gave anti-biotics the placebo effect on my father's illness was substantial. 

 

Solution: Placebo "antibiotics!"  (Can't be done of course, not ethical.)

[plissken]

When someone says they can jump over a red 8 foot fence that costs $10,000 vs a blue 8 foot fence that costs $1000 we aren't talking about the fence here folks.

[wgscott]

On 4/10/2017 at 8:49 PM, GUTB said:

 

So, I guess you haven't tested any such cables?

 

It seems like I've told the truth after all. 

 

You may recall I already said I didn't test such cables for the same reason I don't treat bacterial infections with prayer.

[4est]

14 hours ago, GUTB said:

I extremely doubt the performance of a 2lb Emotiva DAC (with a SMPS) against any meaningful competition at 3k or below.

 

 

Careful, I got lambasted for saying a similar thing...

[plissken]

When someone says they can jump over a red 8 foot fence that costs $10,000 vs a blue 8 foot fence that costs $1000 we aren't talking about the fence here folks.

 

[wgscott]

15 hours ago, GUTB said:

I extremely doubt the performance of a 2lb Emotiva DAC (with a SMPS) against any meaningful competition at 3k or below.

 

 

Then do your measurements at 4kHz or above.

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, 4est said:

 

 

Careful, I got lambasted for saying a similar thing...

 

No, you are getting lambasted for not putting money where your ears are.

 

What $3000 or below DAC that is a Delta-Sigma design is going to blow it away. I understand the NOS or Non-Chip DAC's can sound different and that is preference. I'm simply interested in seeing someone go through an evaluation without knowing how heavy the DAC weighs

[GUTB]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

 

No, you are getting lambasted for not putting money where your ears are.

 

What $3000 or below DAC that is a Delta-Sigma design is going to blow it away. I understand the NOS or Non-Chip DAC's can sound different and that is preference. I'm simply interested in seeing someone go through an evaluation without knowing how heavy the DAC weighs

 

Well my Gustard X20U weighs around 12 lbs next to my 1 lbs Modi 2 Uber....and also crushes it in performance. As it turns out, robust power supplies and high quality output circuitry takes a lot of components that weigh a lot.

 

I know Reddit and Massdrop have told you that all DACs are the same. But, it's just not true. AXPONA is happening next week in Chicago, why not come out and hear it for yourselves?

[crenca]

2 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

 

Then do your measurements at 4kHz or above.

 

Please, keep em coming...

[4est]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

No, you are getting lambasted for not putting money where your ears are.

 

What $3000 or below DAC that is a Delta-Sigma design is going to blow it away. I understand the NOS or Non-Chip DAC's can sound different and that is preference. I'm simply interested in seeing someone go through an evaluation without knowing how heavy the DAC weighs

 

WTF is that supposed to mean? If you are suggesting that I purchase one to try, you are very mistaken in my intent. As with GUTB, I have yet to hear an Emotiva product that I would want to own. I've been building my own DACs for years, but I am sure that the Weiss DAC2 that I used to own would kick its ass to the curb. I've never mentioned weight...

[esldude]

11 hours ago, STC said:

Thanx. Sorry no "Thank you " button.

 

Thank you for clarifying. I thought Alan Shaw mentioned that you cannot defy law of physics and therefore the distortion can go upto 10%. Perhaps, he was talking measurements taken from 20Hz to 20kHz or I am mixing up 10 bit resolution with distortion.

 

What do you think about the distortion measurement here?

 

 

Well certainly at some level distortion can be 10% and more.  Looking at the linked article I didn't see much to complain about in general.  Just as a for instance test I made an IMD signal to check out again using my video speakers which are Revel F12s.  I had 440 hz, 880 hz , 17 khz and 18 khz all at -12 dbfs level.  Playback level was 94 db SPL at the listening position.  Here are a couple screenshots.

 

 

It doesn't look too bad.  The level on this FFT of the low frequency signals is -38.5 db and the high frequency signals were about -50 db. 

 

The 1 khz difference signal of the high frequency tones lies about -105 db or 55 db below signal level.  The 16 khz and 17 khz components are about -101 or 51 db below signal level.  40 db would be 1%. 

 

At the other end the first couple of additive tones above 880 hz lie 46 and 51 db below signal level with some higher components being lower than that.

 

I was surprised at the level the low tones intermodulated with the higher tones.  Difference signals around the high tones spaced at 440 and 880 hz lying between 46 and 56 db below signal level. 

 

So this result is not amplifier clean, but not terribly dirty at what is fairly high sound level.  I am sure this deteriorates as sound level goes up.  I didn't want to test my speakers to destruction so I stopped there.  At a 75 db SPL of playback all these IMD products are in the noise floor which puts them at least 60 db down which would be .1% distortion.  At the general listening levels pretty clean, and even peaks into the mid 90 db levels not very dirty.

[STC]

I was wrong for so many years about the speakers distortion level. I always thought they were higher than the tube Amps.

 

Esldude, I appreciate your effort to take the measurements and explain them. Glad to have you around.

 

Cheers!

[Paul R]

23 hours ago, 4est said:

 

WTF is that supposed to mean? If you are suggesting that I purchase one to try, you are very mistaken in my intent. As with GUTB, I have yet to hear an Emotiva product that I would want to own. I've been building my own DACs for years, but I am sure that the Weiss DAC2 that I used to own would kick its ass to the curb. I've never mentioned weight...

 

Oh, I picked up one of the Emotive DACs when they first came out. It actually did sound very good, but the build quality and QA was unacceptable. For instance, when the player changed the sample rate, the DAC would emit a horrendous full volume - tweeter killing - POP! 

 

DAC went back, and I eventually convinced them to refund my money for it. I won't buy another Emotive product, no matter how good they make them. Why do I wan to fund someone who may be a genius, but who is a careless one?

 

The people arguing with you so intently are just being silly IMNSHO. They seem to be looking to "make points."  Dennis and a few others have made some great points, but most of the others, not so much.   

 

-Paul 

 

[crenca]

7 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Oh, I picked up one of the Emotive DACs when they first came out....

 

 

 

That is the key here I think.  Emotiva made the usual rookie mistake and started their company with a production process that left a whole lot to be desired in the QC dept (I am in no way affiliated with them, I just have read about it on the internet).  It is too bad, in that it is still much talked about today and no one can deny your (and plenty of other folks) poor experience.

 

Still, they have (largely) corrected this now.  Their current products are not up to the $high-crust$ quality control of the upper end of the market, but at their price point IMO they are at above average...

[Danaudio]

On 10/04/2017 at 11:44 PM, wgscott said:

 

Some of those you listed are anything but reputable, and appear in some cases to have crossed the line into outright consumer fraud territory.

 

On 12/04/2017 at 8:57 AM, wgscott said:

 

You may recall I already said I didn't test such cables for the same reason I don't treat bacterial infections with prayer.

 

In the Audio forums the best advice on Equipment is to hear the equipment before buying because everyone hears differently and have different abilities. I guess you are the exception where you already know how a product sounds or doesn't sound by just reading about it on forums and taking sides. 

Don't really understand how you can have an opinion on something when you didn't even try it. Did you buy all your other equipment by just reading reviews or reading about it in forums?

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, Danaudio said:

 

 

In the Audio forums the best advice on Equipment is to hear the equipment before buying because everyone hears differently and have different abilities. I guess you are the exception where you already know how a product sounds or doesn't sound by just reading about it on forums and taking sides. 

Don't really understand how you can have an opinion on something when you didn't even try it. Did you buy all your other equipment by just reading reviews or reading about it in forums?

 

He doesn't think cables make a difference.  Not hurting your listening experience.  Don't bug thy neighbor.

[GUTB]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

He doesn't think cables make a difference.  Not hurting your listening experience.  Don't bug thy neighbor.

 

Objectvists need to talk about it, its a necessary component of that belief system.

[Ralf11]

above stmt is a contradiction in terms

 

if one understands even rudimentary analog electronics, one will likely not waste time or effort on interconnect placebophilia

 

those of you who lack the above could try to educate yourselves

 

 

or just sacrifice a chicken at your next santeria cult meet, or Santa Ria I don't care

[mmerrill99]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

above stmt is a contradiction in terms

 

if one understands even rudimentary analog electronics, one will likely not waste time or effort on interconnect placebophilia

 

those of you who lack the above could try to educate yourselves

 

 

or just sacrifice a chicken at your next santeria cult meet, or Santa Ria I don't care

Oh really?

Maybe you can educate everyone here about:- shield current induced noise  

[Ralf11]

I've spent most of my life educating people.  One thing I am now educated about is that some are ineducable.  On the off chance that you are not in that group, please read my response again, carefully, noting each word.

[mmerrill99]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I've spent most of my life educating people.  One thing I am now educated about is that some are ineducable.  On the off chance that you are not in that group, please read my response again, carefully, noting each word.

I've seen you claim this educator role a number of times but you have never shown any evidence to back up this claim - usually you disappear when asked a technical question or claim some NDA BS.

 

I don't believe this thread is restricted to analogue interconnect cables - is that the limit of your understanding of this thread?

[Ralf11]

First, I don't care what you believe so don't care if you believe I am a scientist or a witchdoctor (who seems to have disappeared BTW).

 

2nd, as I've said several times people need to distinguish different types of "cables" - speaker cables can alter sound in complex loads and the reasons why are obvious; interconnects have never been shown to alter sound and there is no mechanistic reason why they would.

 

gmgraves has posted more detail on this

[mmerrill99]

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

First, I don't care what you believe so don't care if you believe I am a scientist or a witchdoctor (who seems to have disappeared BTW).

 

2nd, as I've said several times people need to distinguish different types of "cables" - speaker cables can alter sound in complex loads and the reasons why are obvious; interconnects have never been shown to alter sound and there is no mechanistic reason why they would.

 

gmgraves has posted more detail on this

It's not what I believe, it's what you portray in your postings on this forum - you big yourself up with hints about knowledge than you have but then fail to actually demonstrate any such knowledge, usually disappearing when questioned. 

 

Sure 'people need to distinguish different types of "cables" & not follow your example of generalised statements.

You would be well advised to follow your own advice