MQA is Vaporware

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, Don Hills said:

On the actual topic, it could well be that DAC designers can use their own filters, provided that they conform to MQA's filter specifications.

 

Could well be but isn't so.

 

Quote

It's been the story so far that DAC designers have to submit their DACs and filters to MQA for testing to confirm that the overall response is to MQA specs.

 

Possibly you make up the "and filters".

Same with the "overall response".

Drama !

 

Quote

What I'm hearing from designers so far is that their own preferred filters do not meet those specs.

 

Maybe this is about how it is being told to you or how you interpret that.

Anyway, full of drama again. That is, if I interpret the rules myself. I never saw anything about filters ?

You just can't change the data in front of any next step because it breaks the encoding. What I could make of that is this, for example : Hey, they tell me I can't use the Windows volume because it will interfere with good SQ !

It would be true, but it would have been me putting the drama in it. I just can't use the Windows volume because it will break the code; nothing special about it. Though highly inconvenient. If workable at all.

So yes, would put drama into it as well; goes automatically. 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

12 minutes ago, darkmass said:

Now to be sure, if the promoters are to be believed, MQA should sound better all the time.

 

How would that be possible when the "Hires" used for it as the base, fails all over to begin with.

No LZ hires sounds better than its original Redbook counterpart. So that's where people close their ears. If MQA can improve that, well, something is wrong, right ? 

 

There's a benefit though : the "masters" used for MQA are generally different ones again (this is throughout the spectrum). So the good thing is (or seems to be) that I did not really run into overly compressed remasters. Still, always is something wrong with it. No different from the HD-Tracks poison.

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

No different from the HD-Tracks poison

 

This is, btw, a subject in itself and in a nice way related to MQA. This then as a teaser because the relations are a bit complicated. So I saw myself writing that and then thought something like "oops, there's logic there which is beyond belief and maybe I should have left it out".

Maybe for another day, 2 years from now. 

[Teresa]

On 5/17/2017 at 2:55 PM, Don Hills said:

 

Unlike the majors, Linn cares about audio quality.

 

I agree. Linn, like most other audiophile labels are concerned about audio quality as their reputation depends on it. Of course I'm referring to labels which are audiophile from the microphones to finished product, not audiophile remaster labels.

 

The major labels gave us their loudness wars with almost no dynamic range. With PCM when the recording hits 0dB the music cannot get any louder, so instead of getting louder the music goes into gross overload digital distortion. The nastiest sounding distortion I've ever heard. Add to that all the stuff the major labels do with their over-processed mixing to further destroy any feeling of listening to the sound of real music in a real space.

 

I gave up on the major labels a while back and recently I have quit buying music from audiophile remaster labels, such as MFSL, Audio Fidelity and others. 

 

My favorite audiophile labels, which make their own recordings, include but are not limited to: Reference Recordings, pre-2009 Telarc, Chesky, Groove Note, AudioQuest Music and about 30 other audiophile labels. I'm curious if any audiophile labels jump on the MQA bandwagon and why.

[PeterSt]

33 minutes ago, Teresa said:

With PCM when the recording hits 0dB the music cannot get any louder, so instead of getting louder the music goes into gross overload digital distortion.

 

Hi Teresa - I don't think that will be true for PCM. A limiter may kick in though (during the recording !), with its own effects (not really much different from compression as such).

Funnily enough, what you describe will (may) apply to DSD (and during playback). This is how the Scarlet Book specification depicts DSD (SACD) to be -6dBFS opposed to its PCM counterpart. This is not always obeyed and with e.g. -3dBFS only, modulator overload may occur (may, because it depends on the music (data) itself), that resulting in really nasty distortion.

 

Edit : A PCM file should leave a bit of headroom too because otherwise the reconstruction filter may not be able to do its work properly. However, it would be a problem of the filter when this results into distortion and which is easy to happen with wrongly applied "two's complement" coding, where the addition of decimal one can result in the subtraction of decimal 65535 (for 16 bits encoding and which is the maximum distance between plus and minus signal). So that implies the largest transient possible, and you won't like that. Me neither. 

 

 

[Teresa]

56 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Hi Teresa - I don't think that will be true for PCM. A limiter may kick in though (during the recording !), with its own effects (not really much different from compression as such).

 

...A PCM file should leave a bit of headroom too because otherwise the reconstruction filter may not be able to do its work properly...

 

Peter,

 

I wasn't talking about well engineered PCM recordings which don't clip as their engineers respect the maximum level of 0dB full scale. I'm talking about victims of the loudness wars which are made as loud as possible with almost no dynamic range and lots of clipping throughout the song which causes the music to go into very gross sounding overload digital distortion.

 

With the loudness wars good luck getting the major labels to leave a bit of headroom.

[Hifi Bob]

8 hours ago, Jud said:

 

 

From MQA:

 

"The increasing evidence of acute sensitivity to time/frequency balance and practical experiments showing deterioration in sound quality from steep filters..."

However, filter ringing ('blurring' in BS terminology) in the domain of interest—i.e. Redbook—occurs at or very close to 22kHz.  So it does not affect sound at all (ultra-sound might be affected but by definition, it's inaudible).

[Sal1950]

9 hours ago, Teresa said:

The major labels gave us their loudness wars with almost no dynamic range. With PCM when the recording hits 0dB the music cannot get any louder, so instead of getting louder the music goes into gross overload digital distortion. The nastiest sounding distortion I've ever heard. Add to that all the stuff the major labels do with their over-processed mixing to further destroy any feeling of listening to the sound of real music in a real space.

Well all recording media creates unpleasant distortion if overdriven.

But in the big picture you are 100% correct, the DR practices of the big labels paints a picture of how little the big labels care about sound quality. Anything that $uites their purpose is A-OK and MQA looks to be one of the best money makers seen in quite a while.

[Jud]

10 hours ago, PeterSt said:

This is how the Scarlet Book specification depicts DSD (SACD) to be -6dBFS opposed to its PCM counterpart. This is not always obeyed and with e.g. -3dBFS only, modulator overload may occur (may, because it depends on the music (data) itself), that resulting in really nasty distortion.

 

Though of course correct, I can say that using SoX and HQP, both of which report overloads, I have virtually never run into any with a -3dB setting.

[Jud]

7 hours ago, Hifi Bob said:

However, filter ringing ('blurring' in BS terminology) in the domain of interest—i.e. Redbook—occurs at or very close to 22kHz.  So it does not affect sound at all (ultra-sound might be affected but by definition, it's inaudible).

 

- Some folks (not just MQA) think this affects the audible range.

 

- It has been determined that the MQA decoding filters (at least those in the first Meridian MQA DAC) are not steep enough to eliminate ringing that may exist in a recording. Therefore any elimination of ringing must occur, if at all, during encoding.

[darkmass]

7 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Though of course correct, I can say that using SoX and HQP, both of which report overloads, I have virtually never run into any with a -3dB setting.

 

Though this is getting a wee bit off topic, if you'd like to run a check on the reporting, and can get your hands on the Epic label single layer SACD of Michael Jackson's Thriller (and can extract the DSD), try running the track "Billie Jean" through SoX and/or HQP.

 

The DSD download of Thriller may work as well, and could be easier to acquire, but I have no direct experience with the DSD download.

 

For much too much information about the SACD "Billie Jean", read post #701 through post #706 here.

[witchdoctor]

If you have not experienced the full unfold of MQA in your home system with a decent DAC you should try it. It was MUCH better than the first unfold Tidal player.

[Confused]

17 minutes ago, witchdoctor said:

If you have not experienced the full unfold of MQA in your home system with a decent DAC you should try it. It was MUCH better than the first unfold Tidal player.

I would like to at least try this.  Why not?

 

Well, there is one reason, I have a Devialet 1000 Pro which cannot do the 'full unfold'.  I absolutely love the Devialet, I know it's sound is not to everyone's taste, that's fine, but it suits me perfectly.  Am I thinking maybe I should change it for something that can do the last unfold?  Not a chance!  Being completely honest, I can't say I am remotely bothered about this last unfold and I do not think the Devialet's ADH / DAC needs 'debluring' in anyway.  And that's kind of the point regarding MQA, it's alienating a proportion of potential customers simply due to their hardware preferences.  I'll just need to slum it with old school 24bit material, which is fine with me!

[witchdoctor]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I would like to at least try this.  Why not?

 

Well, there is one reason, I have a Devialet 1000 Pro which cannot do the 'full unfold'.  I absolutely love the Devialet, I know it's sound is not to everyone's taste, that's fine, but it suits me perfectly.  Am I thinking maybe I should change it for something that can do the last unfold?  Not a chance!  Being completely honest, I can't say I am remotely bothered about this last unfold and I do not think the Devialet's ADH / DAC needs 'debluring' in anyway.  And that's kind of the point regarding MQA, it's alienating a proportion of potential customers simply due to their hardware preferences.  I'll just need to slum it with old school 24bit material, which is fine with me!

Fair enough, enjoy your Devialet 1000 Pro. Devialet is a software company as much as a hardware company, they will likely provide a firm ware update with an MQA decoder soon. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Should be another content related announcement Wednesday. 

[rickca]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Should be another content related announcement Wednesday. 

Did you ever get a Sony press release in Munich re MQA?

[Rt66indierock]

56 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Should be another content related announcement Wednesday. 

 

Even I'm hoping for something to buy that is mainstream in the United States.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 hours ago, rickca said:

Did you ever get a Sony press release in Munich re MQA?

 

No. Sony and MQA signed a contract like the other labels, but there isn't a major press release. 

[Confused]

12 hours ago, witchdoctor said:

Fair enough, enjoy your Devialet 1000 Pro. Devialet is a software company as much as a hardware company, they will likely provide a firm ware update with an MQA decoder soon. 

I am enjoying the 1000 Pro enormously thanks!  So no issue there.  At a dealer event last year a number of us were talking to Devialet's chief designer and the topic of MQA did come up.  It is fair to say that he was being very non-committal at the time.  He did use some interesting language though, referring to MQA a 'competitor's protocol', and advising that if MQA became an industry standard they would look at it but at the time (roughly one year ago) Devialet had made no decision with regard to MQA, they were simply waiting to see how it developed.

 

This takes us the original topic of this thread, is MQA 'vaporware'?  For me at least it is, my DAC does not support it, and I do not want to subscribe to Tidal.  So for me, MQA has zero practical influence on my life in any way.  Maybe this will change in time, maybe not, but for now and for me, it may as well not exist.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Here's the latest press release.

 

Embargoed until 4 pm GMT/11 am EST

 

NUGS.NET OFFERS LIVE CONCERTS IN MQA
Music Fans Step Closer to the Original Performance
 
New York / London, 24 May 2017 – Nugs.net, the official home of live music for some of the largest touring artists in the world, is adopting MQA’s award-winning technology, to bring fans exclusive live concert recordings in master quality sound.  Initially, concerts from GRAMMY Award-winning, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductees, Metallica and Bruce Springsteen, are available to download in MQA.  Other iconic acts, including Pearl Jam, Phish and Red Hot Chili Peppers, to name just a few, will follow, and later this year, nugs.net subscribers will have the option to stream concert recordings in MQA.
 
MQA’s technology delivers master quality audio in a file that is small enough to stream or download, and adoption of the technology across music services, record labels and playback partners continues to gain momentum.  Nugs.netusers can download the MQA file and it will play back on any device.
 
Nugs.net’s service offers different tiers of downloads – MP3, Lossless, DSD, and HD-Audio – as well as a physical CD format.  MQA appears as an additional option for HD-Audio downloads, alongside existing 24 bit FLAC and ALAC formats.
 
“Our pursuit of the highest fidelity in our listeners’ playback experience led us to MQA,” explained nugs.net founder and CEO Brad Serling.  “We were intrigued when we first read about MQA and were thrilled with the results when the MQA folks first encoded some of our live recordings.”
 
Mike Jbara, MQA CEO, said, “Nugs.net connects with true music fans like nobody else.  Live recordings amplify MQA's mission perfectly and we are very grateful for this exciting partnership.  Watch this space!”
 
Metallica recently kicked off the North American leg of their WorldWired tour in Baltimore, and will be continuing to tour across the US and Canada throughout the summer.  Each night’s performance will be released on LiveMetallica.com, the service nugs.net has run for Metallica since 2004.  Additionally, recordings of every night Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band performed on the River Tour from 2016 and 2017 are available now for download in MQA at Live.BruceSpringsteen.net, alongside several releases from Springsteen’s legendary archives.  This week Bruce released the 33-song epic tour finale from Helsinki in 2012, available now in MQA.
 

-Ends-
 
About nugs.net:
Founded in 1997 as a fan site for downloading live music, nugs.net has evolved into the leading source for official live music from some of the largest touring artists in the world.  Metallica, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, Phish, Red Hot Chili Peppers and many other artists distribute recordings of every concert they play through nugs.net.  Nugs.net’s platform includes downloads, CDs, webcasts, and subscription streaming services, delivering exclusive live content to millions of fans on a daily basis.  Additionally, nugs.net founder Brad Serling hosts a weekly radio show on SiriusXM Jam On featuring the week in live music, cherry picked from the nugs.net catalog.  The “nugs.netLive Stash” airs on MTV Live showcasing concert footage from previous nugs.tv broadcasts.
 
MQA Press Contacts
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
Press Site for MQA
URL: www.mqa.co.uk/press

[Rt66indierock]

Chris,

 

This is interesting news. On Bruce’s website the MQA file is priced the same as FLAC-HD and ALAC-HD $24.95. If you want a DSD however it will cost you $49.95. On Metallica’s website The MQA costs the same as the FLAC-HD and ALAC-HD files $17.95. These are two good places to get data points on the market for MQA among the mainstream music buyers.

 

You have wonder what deals have been made especially on “administration” of royalties due MQA.

 

And the Metallica site’s FAQ has some good information about geographical restrictions and limits to supply.

[mjb]

I get the impression there's some big money pushing all this MQA stuff. We don't need it, but we're gonna get it. Hopefully consumers won't allow themselves to be duped.

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, mjb said:

I get the impression there's some big money pushing all this MQA stuff. We don't need it, but we're gonna get it. Hopefully consumers won't allow themselves to be duped.

 

In Bruce’s case he has five formats available for download. Metallica has six formats available. MQA is available if you want it is all they are saying. MQA is not catching on for any artists recording now. Mainstream music buyers are showing no interest in any format above CD quality. There is percentage of audiophiles interested but even if every audiophile embraced MQA that is too small a number to matter. DAC manufacturers are pretty evenly split between: we won’t do MQA, we’ll do it the markets forces us, we’ll do it if it looks like its catching on and we want to make DACs with MQA. A good percentage of audio journalists are pushing it for fear of losing insider status or trying to get insider status.  The professionals have known how to make good recordings for as long as I can remember 1966 (Pet Sounds) so they don’t need it to make stuff sound good.

 

Sony pushed SACD hard and it got them nowhere. I personally believe the people pushing MQA will prevent it gaining acceptance even in the audiophile market.

 

When I made the turn onto the toll road last year going to T.H.E Show in Irvine I said to myself “the clock is ticking and as of now I’m keeping score.” Now more people are keeping score.

 

I haven’t begun to ask hard questions yet about MQA. But I have been compiling them.

[witchdoctor]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Here's the latest press release.

 

Embargoed until 4 pm GMT/11 am EST

 

NUGS.NET OFFERS LIVE CONCERTS IN MQA
Music Fans Step Closer to the Original Performance
 
New York / London, 24 May 2017 – Nugs.net, the official home of live music for some of the largest touring artists in the world, is adopting MQA’s award-winning technology, to bring fans exclusive live concert recordings in master quality sound.  Initially, concerts from GRAMMY Award-winning, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductees, Metallica and Bruce Springsteen, are available to download in MQA.  Other iconic acts, including Pearl Jam, Phish and Red Hot Chili Peppers, to name just a few, will follow, and later this year, nugs.net subscribers will have the option to stream concert recordings in MQA.
 
MQA’s technology delivers master quality audio in a file that is small enough to stream or download, and adoption of the technology across music services, record labels and playback partners continues to gain momentum.  Nugs.netusers can download the MQA file and it will play back on any device.
 
Nugs.net’s service offers different tiers of downloads – MP3, Lossless, DSD, and HD-Audio – as well as a physical CD format.  MQA appears as an additional option for HD-Audio downloads, alongside existing 24 bit FLAC and ALAC formats.
 
“Our pursuit of the highest fidelity in our listeners’ playback experience led us to MQA,” explained nugs.net founder and CEO Brad Serling.  “We were intrigued when we first read about MQA and were thrilled with the results when the MQA folks first encoded some of our live recordings.”
 
Mike Jbara, MQA CEO, said, “Nugs.net connects with true music fans like nobody else.  Live recordings amplify MQA's mission perfectly and we are very grateful for this exciting partnership.  Watch this space!”
 
Metallica recently kicked off the North American leg of their WorldWired tour in Baltimore, and will be continuing to tour across the US and Canada throughout the summer.  Each night’s performance will be released on LiveMetallica.com, the service nugs.net has run for Metallica since 2004.  Additionally, recordings of every night Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band performed on the River Tour from 2016 and 2017 are available now for download in MQA at Live.BruceSpringsteen.net, alongside several releases from Springsteen’s legendary archives.  This week Bruce released the 33-song epic tour finale from Helsinki in 2012, available now in MQA.
 

-Ends-
 
About nugs.net:
Founded in 1997 as a fan site for downloading live music, nugs.net has evolved into the leading source for official live music from some of the largest touring artists in the world.  Metallica, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, Phish, Red Hot Chili Peppers and many other artists distribute recordings of every concert they play through nugs.net.  Nugs.net’s platform includes downloads, CDs, webcasts, and subscription streaming services, delivering exclusive live content to millions of fans on a daily basis.  Additionally, nugs.net founder Brad Serling hosts a weekly radio show on SiriusXM Jam On featuring the week in live music, cherry picked from the nugs.net catalog.  The “nugs.netLive Stash” airs on MTV Live showcasing concert footage from previous nugs.tv broadcasts.
 
MQA Press Contacts
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
Press Site for MQA
URL: www.mqa.co.uk/press

Subscribed to nugs,net, thanks for posting this!

[witchdoctor]

3 hours ago, mjb said:

I get the impression there's some big money pushing all this MQA stuff. We don't need it, but we're gonna get it. Hopefully consumers won't allow themselves to be duped.

Really? Have you compared it to Redbook via an MQA DAC?