MQA is Vaporware

[gdpr]

As I am very suspious about the new member Brinkman Ship, and as I am not native english speaking, I googled the meaning of "brinkmanship"  

This is what wikipedia tells me : Brinkmanship (also brinksmanship) is the practice of trying to achieve an advantageous outcome by pushing dangerous events to the brink of active conflict.

So not only his email adres is specifically made up for participation to this topic on CA, his chosen nickname is also indicating that he is only here to create conflict.

 

Just my appreciation

 

Dirk 

[gdpr]

In the last 50 pages or so, it becomes very clear there is a competitive discussion (although more often between the lines than clearly spelled out) between the traditionnal audio magazines and the interet forums in general, but more important the CA forum specifically.

 

Apart from all comments and insights already provided, I would like to add some personal reflections and opinions, which in my book are somewhat overlooked.  

I fear/know some people, maybe even Chris, will not really be happy with what I will come up with, but please bare in mind, it is just meant as food for thought.

 

In this new digital world of downloads and streaming, hte re

[gdpr]

In the last 50 pages or so, it becomes very clear there is a competitive discussion (although more often between the lines than clearly spelled out) between the traditionnal audio magazines and the interet forums in general, but more important the CA forum specifically.

 

Apart from all comments and insights already provided, I would like to add some personal reflections and opinions, which in my book are somewhat overlooked.  

I fear/know some people, maybe even Chris, will not really be happy with everything I will come up with, but please bare in mind, it is just meant as food for thought.

 

In this new digital world of downloads and streaming, the real value is in software, being in firmware, filtering, DSP, Gui, libary management, metadata, etc.

 

The traditional hardware manufacturers have a very hard time dealing with this, and most of the time are not really succesfull (or not suceesfull at all).  It is a complete different profession, compared with their traditional skills of developping/improving  new hardware appliances.

 

So there are a new bunch of players, coming from the ICT sector that are steadily building their way into the consumer audio market - going from audio players on PC/MAC platforms, audio filtering and optimizers, DSP applications, and the list goes on.

In their footsteps, a whole lot of new hardware manufacturers are coming to the market, to play in this audio ICT market (look at the sponsor page here at CA).

 

This creates a hugh 'margin'  problem for the traditional audio manufacturers, as the margins in the ICT world are extremely small compared to theirs.  On top of that, speed of development, specifically on software, is also of a different order of magnitude.

 

As long as the audio hobbyist, interested in digital, needed to 'google' the information together, in order to start playing with these new technologies, there was not really a problem.

 

However, now we have the CA forum, which has in the meantime, established itself as the center  of digital audio development information. 

 

I believe the CA forum is challenging the traditional audio market players (hifi hardware manufacturers , music industry,  audio press, ...) in several ways :

 

1) new hardware players linked directly to the digital part of audio (DAC's , Network Appliances, streamers, ....) are accepting to work with margins much closer to these in the ICT world  (5-20%) , not sustainable for the old guard 

2) software developments are going so much faster in  this digital audio world, that the traditional manufacturers can't scale up to.

3) new developments are openly discussed, tested, investigated, even before the product or service is actually launched or established on the market (dare I say MQA ?)

'4) as more and more software is involved, the way to provide support to end-customers, has also changed completely , and needs to be interactive, 24 hours a day, and immediate.

5) product reviews are more consumer driven than from audio journalists (see also the new writers Chris is inviting to participate on CA)

6) ...

 

And all these topic's are supported and strongly used on this  specific CA forum, thanks to Chris. (and I applaud /admire him for that)

 

All this makes CA a very strong competitor (maybe more indirect than direct, but a competitor nevertheless) to the 'traditional market players.  

 

So I do not believe that Chris can keep on claiming he is neutral to the market.  The very existence of the forum, due to its success, takes away that neutrality (from a commercial point of view anyway), if one wants it or not.

 

And for me it also explains why a number of people and organisations are defending themselves as hard as they can, by attacking CA , its owner/moderator and its members.  There is a lot at stake for them, and it is (too) hard to evolve with the right speed in this new digital audio world.

 

A last suggestion to Chris, as you have now the forum and the marketplace, why do you not offer a centralized support forum to the manufacturers and help them on their way to communicate effectively with their 'digital' customers.

 

My food for thought

 

Dirk

[gdpr]

38 minutes ago, ARQuint said:

I do care. That's why I'm here.

 

I don't feel you're listening to me. There are others  besides audio writers who feel that MQA-filtered files sound better than the corresponding PCM source. And not all audio writers with a positive view of the sound have made extravagant claims for the technology.

 

I can agree with all of this. These are valid concerns that need to be addressed. Myself, I do not stream much at all and have a large collection of local HD files that I hope to keep adding to. I want to continue to apply DSP room correction when I listen, which is problematic with MQA. But insulting individuals and attempting to delegitimize publications in their totality because they do not sing exactly the same song as you do on this one issue will not serve anyone's cause, which is the cause of good sound.

 

 

This is the 1st time I see a audio journalist using the term MQA filter.

 

I dare all professional audio journalists to blind testing available filters from audio player providers :

1) to identify the MQA filter

2) to clearly state which filter they like the most (of course onlusten be informed after the listening test

 

for the test, 3 music pieces can be chosen, however in consensus - the same 3 files for all journalists.

 

For the player/filters I can suggest Audirvana, HQplayer (upsampling in DSD), ...

I propose to the CA community to propose, up to a maximum of 5, other player/filters.

 

I have my favorite, but I do not have listened to all players available.

I am convinced however that most, if not all, software players capable of configurable filtering, will easily better MQA.

 

I propose to use the best Dac’s from DCS and Berkeley, MQA capable, but also accepting ‘overriding’ filters from software players sources.

 

So Mr. Quint, will you be the 1st to accept this challenge? 

it should not be a big problem for you to get hold of the forementioned Dac’s.

I am convinced that the CA community can help you to get hold of the different software players that be proposed.

 

Dirk

 

P.S.  My choice is HQ embedded player,converting and upsampling to DSD (128 right now due to technical limitations of my Dac with USB/Linux) 

Still keeping my eyes open for a Dac with native DSD512 support on Linux ( and no, the IFI Dacs are not good enough)

 

 

[gdpr]

Or maybe they have learned to just keep quiet at CA and just look at the RoW.

They have learned by now that most of the CA members are MQA critizers, and nothing is to gain here.

 

[gdpr]

On 6/26/2018 at 4:38 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

 

DATE: JUNE 26, 2018

CONTACT: JASON ELZY

PHONE: 818-238-6220

E-MAIL: [email protected]

ARTWORK: media.rhino.com

 

THE DOORS WAITING FOR THE SUN

50TH ANNIVERSARY DELUXE EDITION

 

2-CD/1-LP Edition Of The Doors’ First #1 Album Features Newly
Remastered Audio, Plus 14 Unreleased Studio and Live Recordings;

Available September 14 From Rhino

 

“Hello, I Love You” 7” Single To Be Released On August 3, 50 Years

To The Day Of The Song Hitting Number One On The Billboard Singles Chart

 

LOS ANGELES – The Doors released their third studio album, Waiting For The Sun, in July 1968. It was the band’s third platinum album in less than two years, and the first to top the album chart. Since its debut, the album has sold millions of copies around the globe and contributed to the Doors’ legendary canon with classics like “The Unknown Soldier,” “Five To One” and the #1 smash, “Hello, I Love You.”

 

Rhino will commemorate the 50^th anniversary of the album this year with WAITING FOR THE SUN: 50^th ANNIVERSARY DELUXE EDITION. This 2-CD/1-LP collection features a new version of the album’s original stereo mix on both CD and 180-gram vinyl LP, which has been newly remastered from the original master tapes by Bruce Botnick, the Doors’ longtime engineer/mixer. The set also includes a second disc of 14 completely unreleased tracks: nine recently discovered “rough mixes” from the   album recording sessions and five live songs from a 1968 Copenhagen show. WAITING FOR THE SUN: 50^th ANNIVERSARY DELUXE EDITION will be available on September 14 for $49.98. The audio will also be available on digital download and streaming services.

 

“Hello, I Love You” became the band’s second #1 hit when it topped the Billboard singles chart for two weeks beginning on August 3, 1968. Now, exactly 50 years later, Rhino will release a new 7” version of the single with its b-side “Love Street.” For this anniversary release, Rhino will use mono radio mixes of the songs that were given exclusively to radio stations for airplay in 1968. This version of “Hello, I Love You” was first available last year as part of The Singles CD collection and is making its vinyl debut here, while the “Love Street” mix is being released commercially for the first time. The 7” single will be available on August 3 for $9.98.

 

Botnick’s newly remastered stereo mix of Waiting For The Sun adds new sonic dimensions to songs like “The Unknown Soldier” and “Spanish Caravan,” but that wasn’t his only contribution to the project. While going through his archive, he uncovered a cache of rough mixes from the sessions that hadn’t been played in 50 years. Botnick says: “I prefer some of these rough mixes to the finals, as they represent all of the elements and additional background vocals, different sensibilities on balances, and some intangible roughness, all of which are quite attractive and refreshing.”

 

The deluxe edition of the album also features unreleased live recordings of five songs from the Doors’ September 17, 1968 concert in Copenhagen. The performance includes three songs from the band’s latest album – “Hello, I Love You,” “Five To One,” and “The Unknown Soldier” – plus the classics “Back Door Man” and “The WASP (Texas Radio And The Big Beat).”

 

When the Doors recorded Waiting For The Sun in 1968, they were among the first bands to use Dolby A301 noise reduction processors, which was cutting-edge recording tech at the time. Similarly, the most advanced sound recording innovations were used to make the anniversary edition of Waiting For The Sun. The new release has been encoded with the MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) process. An MQA disc plays back on all CD players as standard CD quality. But if a conventional CD player is connected to an MQA-enabled device, it can play the same disc back at its original sample rate.

 

In other Doors news, the band has reprinted their original 1968 Doors concert program for the first time, which will be available exclusively in The Doors webstore. This was the only official tour program ever created by the band. 

 

The program was originally produced for their 1968 U.S. tour but only sold at a few select shows and via mail order. Designed by Paul Ferrara, this 24-page program includes many color and black & white images taken by Ferrara, plus poetry by Jim Morrison, astrology charts for each band member, and more.

 

For more information about THE DOORS, please contact Jason Elzy in the Rhino Media Relations Department at [email protected] or 818-238-6220.

 

www.thedoors.com

 

Pre-order now at the following links:

Waiting For The Sun: 50^th Anniversary Deluxe Edition https://rh-ino.co/wfts50

Hello I Love You 7” https://rh-ino.co/helloiloveyou

 

WAITING FOR THE SUN: 50^th ANNIVERSARY DELUXE EDITION

Track Listing

 

Disc One

1. “Hello, I Love You”
2. “Love Street”
3. “Not To Touch The Earth”
4. “Summer’s Almost Gone”
5. “Wintertime Love”
6. “The Unknown Soldier”
7. “Spanish Caravan”
8. “My Wild Love”
9. “We Could Be So Good Together”
10. “Yes, The River Knows”
11. “Five To One”

 

Disc Two (All Tracks Previously Unreleased)

Rough Mixes

1. “Hello, I Love You”
2. “Summer’s Almost Gone”
3. “Yes, The River Knows”
4. “Spanish Caravan”
5. “Love Street”
6. “Wintertime Love”
7. “Not To Touch The Earth”
8. “Five To One”
9. “My Wild Love”

 

Live In Copenhagen

10. “The WASP (Texas Radio And The Big Beat)”
11. “Hello, I Love You”
12. “Back Door Man”
13. “Five To One”
14. “The Unknown Soldier”

 

 

# # #

 

The 50th anniversary verslons of the first  2 albums, The Doors and Strange Days, are available as hirez downloads both on HDtracks and Qobuz.

I am convinced hirez - non-MQA - downloads of these new 50th anniversary verslons will soon  be available there as well

 

[gdpr]

55 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

But this isn't true in the case of Peter McGrath's files.  The mastering is identical except for the MQA treatment.  The treated files sound noticeably better and it's very easy to hear, in part because they are live acoustic performances.

HQplayer (and others) provides different filters that make music tracks sounding better.

and with HQplayer Pro, one can apply a chosen filter offline and play track to one’s dac without heavy powerlifting.

I am betting you are able to find better sound yourself if you would give it a fair try.

Dirk

[gdpr]

2 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

You are misleading here. I did not imply that good discussion was not possible with Chris in the room.

Your mirror must be in anxious anticipation every morning for you looking into it. 

Dirk

[gdpr]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

Why not not stop an ensuing problem before it grows in size?

 

Like a tumor...

Exactly what I was thinking at this very moment

Dirk

[gdpr]

35 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

VoIP in specific my friend, and including hi res multipoint video conferences, and real time live shows in theaters, and so on. 

You have a number of supporters on personal level here on the forum.

But honestly , if you are going to make a technical link between MQA and Voip and Videoconferencing, you really are undermining yourself at the technical level.

Have you started a personal competition with Lee Scoggings?

Dirk

[gdpr]

We should be gratefull to Lee Scoggings to provide ample opportunities to keep this forum alive and kicking (as.)

Dirk

[gdpr]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

Or from another point of view, there comes a moment when people have been bullied into being quiet. Sometimes on both sides of an argument. 

 

It is a puzzle to me why Chris is allowing such bad behavior, but this is his house and we all play by his rules, regardless of whether or not we agree with him. Everyone always has the option to go somewhere else or start their own forum. 

 

In this hobby, there is only one golden rule, and that is for each person to listen and decide for themselves.

 

The truth, whatever it may be, will always come out. 

 

-Paul 

 

 

 

Only if does not have a 'serious' impact, directly or indirectly on other people.

 

If I play my music so loud that my  neighbours are bothered because they cannot sleep, they rightfully can ask me to turn the volume down.

I hope you can translate this statement to MQA yourself.

 

Dirk

 

[gdpr]

8 minutes ago, k-man said:

@manisandher I hope you don't mind me making some correction to your MQA file description:

 

 

Sorry but your message would make more sense if you had corrected the real MQA file description iso of the Hirez one.

Dirk

[gdpr]

How can we be sure that we do not receive an 'mqa'-ed download when buying a regular flac (or aiff/wav) album?

Anybody in the house capable / interested to develop a small app(lication) for that?

Long time ago I was using 'flactest' utility to check ripped tracks. As mqa is wrapped in flac, this will not be the one, but it gives an idea what I am asking here.

Dirk

[gdpr]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Already done: https://code.videolan.org/mansr/mqa

 

Sorry for maybe a stupid question, but how do I get this to work under Windows 10?

I have downloaded the mqa-master.zip file and unpacked it.  I don't see any executable however?

What am I overlooking?

Dirk

[gdpr]

35 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

 

Sorry about the mistake -- my machine has all of the libs installed onto it, and I missed one that was needed.  Here is a zipfile that contains the gmp package also.  No difference other than adding the gmp constituents.  If any more is needed, then I would have to test with an mqa file I guess.

 

 

 

mqadist.zip 2.19 MB · 2 downloads

Hi John

 

Could you please explain to me which executable to us and how to use it?

I have unpacked your zip file, resulting in 3 executables - mqascan, mqbscan & mqbgen.

 

When I try to execute mqascan, nothing happens (except some security warnings, which I all have 'accepted')

 

Thanks in advance

 

Dirk

[gdpr]

13 minutes ago, mansr said:

I guess a brief explanation is in order. As has been noted, there are three executables:

• mqascan scans a file for MQA information and prints what it finds. With the "-1" flag only the first packet is printed. This includes the original sample rate, rendering options (filter, dither level), blue/green authentication level, and some fields with unknown meaning.
• mqbscan is the same thing but for decoded MQA, what one would deliver to a renderer. Also accepts the "-1" flag.
• mqbgen takes an existing input and adds rendering instructions. Useful for probing DACs.

A big thanks to  @mansr; @john dyson & @PeterSt for all your support out here.

 

In the mean time I have found out that dbPoweramp also is providing information on track level about MQA authentication

 

 

The only problem I have is that dBPoweramp is stating an MQA encoded file has still perfect Audio Quality: Perfect (losless).

I will need to send them an urgent message 🙂

 

Dirk

[gdpr]

15 minutes ago, ddetaey said:

The only problem I have is that dBPoweramp is stating an MQA encoded file has still perfect Audio Quality: Perfect (losless).

I will need to send them an urgent message 🙂

 

Dirk

 

Hereby the email I have just sent to dbPoweramp

 

[gdpr]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's just a dump of FLAC metadata tags. I doubt dBPoweramp pays any attention to the MQAENCODER tag. Besides, the presence or absence of that tag doesn't say for sure whether the file is MQA. My tool looks at the actual data and thus can't be fooled.

I fully agree, 

 

1) as dbPoweramp is integrated in the 'shell' of Windows File Manager , it is an easy 1st check and alert .

If MQA authentication is mentioned, it makes 100% sense to check in depth with your tool 🙂

My aim is is to build a list of albums and their production labels, such as 2L, that are misleading customers.  I hope my list will stop at 1 'music label' entry.

 

2) as dBPoweramp is indicating MQA identification, we better make sure not to make them spread the word that MQA is Perfect (Losless). There are probably more users using dbPoweramp, than readors of the MQA is Vaporware topic on the forum.

 

Dirk

[gdpr]

You can find market share numbers in this topic :

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/today-bob-stuart-launches-a-blog/69082/85

 

Dirk

 

[gdpr]

4 hours ago, mcgillroy said:

Interesting articles on the role of metadata for streaming royalties: 

 

https://9to5mac.com/2019/05/31/royalties-from-streaming-music/

 

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/08/03/music-industry-royalty-black-box/

 

So let's make a bet how long it will take MQA and/or MQA shills to pick this up and spin MQA as a solution! I'd guess we'll read something no later than end of June 2019.

Hi@mcgillroy

would you mind to make this a separate topic (without the MQA stuff)

I strongly believe that what is explained here have possible bigger impact on the music industry than MQA.

Dirk

[gdpr]

4 hours ago, ddetaey said:

Hi@mcgillroy

would you mind to make this a separate topic (without the MQA stuff)

I strongly believe that what is explained here have possible bigger impact on the music industry than MQA.

Dirk

 

@porkchop has created a topic "Metadata the biggest little problem plaguing the music industry" in the Music part of the forum.

Dirk

 

(sorry but I have not found a way to refer directly to this new topic)

 

[gdpr]

Well, may I remind you that in order to survive, this site needs advertizers too.

[gdpr]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Control? Sure.

 

Resell? No way. 

 

Labels know that ship has sailed. 

Are you sure about 'resell? No Way'.

In the Western world, I believe you are quite right.

Talking with my hifi dealer, he sees a total shift of the attention of audio manufacturesr and service providers shift to the China, India (with probably other countries in the regions to follow).

I can very well imagine that 'local' music overthere will be resold as this has happened overhere.  

Dirk

[gdpr]

4 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

This hasn't been what I've found in my 'apples-to-apples' comparisons of hires vs. MQA from the same master. The differences are typically very, very small:

 

 

Subjectively, they sound as loud as each other. And yet, they do sound different, as evidenced in the three 'apples-to-apples' threads. Aggregating the results of the three threads, people seemed to prefer the sound of MQA over hires (from the same master) in about 50% of cases. Draw whatever conclusion you wish...

 

Mani.

One could also say

people seemed to prefer the sound of hires over MQA in about 50% of the cases.

 

Although I am saying exactly the same as you, it still ‘reads’ different.

Dirk